A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Butch5]

Your logic is flawed. If I was to say "I have been alive from before my grandson was born", that would not mean that I was claiming to have always been alive going back to the beginning of time. You would be wrong to believe that. Similarly, it is not logical to deduce that Jesus had been alive from the beginning of time.

Jesus said, in prayer to God, John 17:3 (WEB):

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

His logic is flawed for sure. However, since an argument can't be made from Scripture to support his claim he has to continue to repeat the propaganda.

 

[Scott Downey]

His logic is flawed for sure. However, since an argument can't be made from Scripture to support his claim he has to continue to repeat the propaganda.

So do you worship Jesus Christ?

 

[keithr]

The demons know who YHWH is = "In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon. He cried out in a loud voice, “Ha! What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!"

The demons knew who Jesus was (not YHWH). There's a clue in what the demon said - "What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth?".

Who do you think "the Holy One of God" was? Hint, Luke 1:35 (WEB):

The angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God.​

Yep, it's referring to Jesus. The demons knew that Jesus was the holy one of God, the Son of God. They did not think that he was God (YHWH).

JESUS declares Himsel YHWH = "before Abraham IAM"

You totally misunderstand that verse. See previous post in this thread for an explanation.

Elohim Father declares His Son YHWH =
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, 10then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11This Jesus is
‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’ Salvation exists in no one else,
for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

How is that our Father declaring that Jesus is YHWH? Peter said that the lame man was healed in the name of Jesus, God's anointed (the Messiah), and that God had raised Jesus from the dead. God YHWH cannot die, therefore clearly Jesus could not have been YHWH, because Jesus had died. God has determined that only through His Son Jesus can we be saved:

Colossians 3:17

Whatever you do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father, through him.​

1 John 3:23

This is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he commanded.​

Php 2:9-11

(9) Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;
(10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,
(11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

 

[David in NJ]

His logic is flawed for sure. However, since an argument can't be made from Scripture to support his claim he has to continue to repeat the propaganda.

Read all of John 17

Let this be your foundation of thought -
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Through Him(the Word) all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[David in NJ]

The demons knew who Jesus was (not YHWH). There's a clue in what the demon said - "What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth?".

Who do you think "the Holy One of God" was? Hint, Luke 1:35 (WEB):

The angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God.​

Yep, it's referring to Jesus. The demons knew that Jesus was the holy one of God, the Son of God. They did not think that he was God (YHWH).


You totally misunderstand that verse. See previous post in this thread for an explanation.


How is that our Father declaring that Jesus is YHWH? Peter said that the lame man was healed in the name of Jesus, God's anointed (the Messiah), and that God had raised Jesus from the dead. God YHWH cannot die, therefore clearly Jesus could not have been YHWH, because Jesus had died. God has determined that only through His Son Jesus can we be saved:

Colossians 3:17

Whatever you do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father, through him.​

1 John 3:23

This is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he commanded.​

Php 2:9-11

(9) Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;
(10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,
(11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Here's a clue for ya = Post #665

 

[keithr]

Here's a clue for ya = Post #665

What? Post #665 is the clue that you're referring to in post #665? That can't be right!

 

[Pierac]

That's an interpretation, not a translation. While it may give a certain sense of the passage, it is not at all a translation. There is one translation I've read, a little interpretive also, but I think it gets it right, "he has fixed the world in their heart, that they cannot understand . . ." I think it's the LXX that says "age". God has irremediably afixed our hearts to this terrestrial realm, this humanity, so that we cannot know His secrets.

In Christ we are a new creation, seated together in the heavenly realm. And in the mind of the spirit we can begin to understand the mysteries He reveals to us.

Much love!

Really... God has fixed the world in your heart???
Read my post again.

Paul

 

[Pierac]

Rom 8:20

Think about that. What made Jesus different from Adam? Why the different results? Why did a Loving Father God create people who could fail? Why didn't He create people that would not fail?

You say Adam was made for the purpose of sinning? I do not think so. To me that would make God dishonest. One one side of His mouth He'd be saying, Do not sin, on the other side, Go and sin. God is not a man that He should lie. "Thou shalt not eat of that tree . . .", and, "I want you to eat from that tree contrary to My command."

It seems to me that your understanding would mean that God desires unrighteousness, death and sin.

How is it that Jesus is a person Who would not fail? We know He would not and could not fail, because His success was prophesied over and over, and "Scripture cannot be broken". And how is it then that we become truly incorruptable?

Much love!

You could say the same for Pharaoh! DID Pharaoh hardened his heart... or did God?
Your not seeing the plan for the human race!

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

Does God's creation begin after Adam... or before?

I can not make the blind to see... but reading the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly. Is hard to miss!!

You need to do the math... The Fall of Adam was all part of Gods plan... not some surprise God needed to react too!!!

Please,
Paul

 

[marks]

Really... God has fixed the world in your heart???
Read my post again.

Paul

Did you have something particular in mind?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You need to do the math... The Fall of Adam was all part of Gods plan... not some surprise God needed to react too!!!

Please,
Paul

God does not approve sin. It's kind of axiomatic. No, God was not surprised. And nor was He the original sinner, causing sin in people.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Does God's creation begin after Adam... or before?

Interestingly phrased question.

But the wrong question.

When did God subject creation to futility, before God cursed the ground, when God cursed the ground, or after God cursed the ground?

Much love!

 

[Keiw]

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers— Elohim of Abraham, Elohiom of Isaac, Elohim of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

Why does Elohim call Himself by THREE Names = "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness = 3 Times

Actually the Hebrew scholars say there is no i am that i am in the OT, i will be what i will be is the correct translating of that statement made. Trinity translations are filled with errors to mislead.
Every spot-GOD or LORD is in the OT-YHWH belongs. Wicked men removed Gods name, they had no right.

So it really reads-- YHWH(Jehovah), the God of your fathers)--that is the name mentioned in that passage. Elohim is not a name, its a Hebrew word carrying various meanings.


Let us( YHWH and his master worker( Prov 8= the being sent named Jesus as a mortal) make man in our image.

 

[Keiw]

In your mind, sure, but like I said, that's the problem.

Grace and peace to you.

Its in the minds of all who know the facts.

 

[Pierac]

Did you have something particular in mind?

Much love!

NO... Just do you really think the bible translations you read actually says ... God has fixed the world in your heart???

I'm amazed how little people know that the bible they read is not actually the word of GOD... But what translators translate... Like any thing in life they get it wrong. Yet... they always seem to make it to the main stream!

KJV bible Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

NASB bible Ecc 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

ESV bible Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

Rotherham Bible Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

YLT Bible Ecc 3:11 The whole He hath made beautiful in its season; also, that knowledge He hath put in their heart without which man findeth not out the work that God hath done from the beginning even unto the end.

Net Bible Ecc 3:11 God has made everything fit beautifully in its appropriate time, but he has also placed ignorance in the human heart so that people cannot discover what God has ordained, from the beginning to the end of their lives.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

Please read my post in full before you make such a silly comment again... So what did GOD put in the human heart... The World... like you suggest, or perhaps Eternity... or Knowledge... or Ignorance... or Obscurity???

Silly Child... You read what others want you to read... How do you not know this???
Paul

 

[PinSeeker]

Its in the minds of all who know the facts.

Right, but for some, what they think are facts are not really facts at all. That's the point.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

Silly Child... You read what others want you to read... How do you not know this???
Paul

So many like you . . . and I have so little interest in those who make discussions personal and denigrating. What a waste!

Much love!

 

[Pierac]

So many like you . . . and I have so little interest in those who make discussions personal and denigrating. What a waste!

Much love!

Posted just like a little spiritual child who sits and soaks in your church chair... with no input what so ever from you.... your only allowed what to be told but never allowed to teach... Thus your Lack of ability to response to my Ecc 3:11 post... with all the different sayings that do not agree... Mark, you can run to you pastor and ask for a response... which you will not recieve or seek for yourself!

I'm trying to help you, but your too worried about your feelings... How do you think the money exchangers felt when Jesus entered the temple..
Pretty much like you... Whipped!
Paul

 

[marks]

Posted just like a little spiritual child who sits and soaks in your church chair... with no input what so ever from you.... your only allowed what to be told but never allowed to teach... Thus your Lack of ability to response to my Ecc 3:11 post... with all the different sayings that do not agree... Mark, you can run to you pastor and ask for a response... which you will not recieve or seek for yourself!

I'm trying to help you, but your too worried about your feelings... How do you think the money exchangers felt when Jesus entered the temple..
Pretty much like you... Whipped!
Paul

You are revealed, just as everyone reveals themself in their words. When you stop discussing the Scriptures because you'd rather express your negative opinions of me, and your presumptions of what I'm feeling, I'm done.

Not only am I not interesting in getting into these personal defenses and nonsense like that, but I have no reason to think this won't continue, and what's the benefit to that?

There is no gain, only loss.

Sad!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Pretty much like you... Whipped!

Or in other words, This may help you to feel better about yourself in a fleshy way, but is of no use in spiritual discussion. Are you able or inclined to stop?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Actually the Hebrew scholars say there is no i am that i am in the OT, i will be what i will be is the correct translating of that statement made. Trinity translations are filled with errors to mislead.
Every spot-GOD or LORD is in the OT-YHWH belongs. Wicked men removed Gods name, they had no right.

So it really reads-- YHWH(Jehovah), the God of your fathers)--that is the name mentioned in that passage. Elohim is not a name, its a Hebrew word carrying various meanings.


Let us( YHWH and his master worker( Prov 8= the being sent named Jesus as a mortal) make man in our image.

God's Name has never been removed from Scripture - Exodus 3:14-16

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM = I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE = This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Elohim/YHWH(Plural) also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Elohe(PLURAL) , the Elohim/YHWH of your fathers—
#1 Elohim/YHWH of Abraham, #2 Elohim/YHWH of Isaac, #3 Elohim/YHWH of Jacob—has sent me to you.’
This is My Name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them:
in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Matthew 28:19