A Discussion About Truth

[bbyrd009]

see, i told you we’d be hijacking this thread lol; ima leave it w/barney’s ok bc there is maybe a little tiny bit of “truth” here tho
Aunty Jane said: ↑
I believe that I have all the important things right....that is what I have faith in

yes ok and what do you imagine the guy here below is saying Aj
3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God/

and btw dont take this too personally ok, it is something every single believer goes through i guess, most never leave there maybe? and it is surely put like that in the Bible in order to hide wisdom from the wise (which is btw surely ppl who go “its like this and like that” right)

 

[BarneyFife]

I’m sorry you feel that way Qo. What “turn” did it take? Did I misunderstand the purpose of this thread?

Problems interpreting what others are saying is always present in these kinds of exchanges. Are you interpreting the statements of my beliefs as correcting you? We are all free to express our own truth, so how is it getting uncomfortable for you?

Wasn’t the purpose of this thread to discuss “truth” as we understand it? Haven’t we all just done that?

Again my apologies if I have overstepped....

No worries.

 

[Aunty Jane]

see, i told you we’d be hijacking this thread lol; ima leave it w/barney’s ok bc there is maybe a little tiny bit of “truth” here tho
Aunty Jane said: ↑
I believe that I have all the important things right....that is what I have faith in/

yes ok and what do you imagine the guy here below is saying Aj
3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God

Well, since you asked.....
Paul stated in 2 Thessalonians 2:7.....“The mystery of this lawlessness is already at work.” So in the first century, this lawless one had begun to manifest himself.
Paul goes on to say.... “The lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:9-10) So this "man" has originated from satan and there are 'powerful works' associated with him.

Was Paul talking about a single individual? No, because he states that the activities of this “man” were evident in Paul’s day, and would continue in existence until the end of this world system of things. So, "he" has existed for many centuries. Obviously, no literal man has lived that long. So the expression “man of lawlessness” must stand for a body, or class, of people.

Who are they? The evidence shows that they are the body of proud, ambitious high ranking clergymen of Christendom, who over the centuries have set themselves up as a law unto themselves. "Lording it over" their charges and even over world rulers down through the centuries.

The fact that there are thousands of different religions and sects in Christendom today, each with its supposed Bible trained clergy, yet each conflicting with the others in some aspect of doctrine or practice, which is evidence of not having God's unifying spirit.
What all these religions have in common is that they do not hold fast to the Bible’s teachings, having violated the biblical rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written.” (1 Corinthians 4:6)

Jesus asked the religious leaders of his day.....“Why do you overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition?. . . . .you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (Matthew 15:6-9)
Christendom too has copied that model because the devil is behind all of them.....same MO.

They have exchanged the truths of God's word for pagan lies, teaching such unscriptural doctrines as immortality of the human soul, hellfire, purgatory, and Trinity.

History shows that those in this 'man of lawlessness' class have displayed such pride and arrogance that they have actually dictated to rulers of the world. Under the pretext of the doctrine of ‘the divine right of kings,’ the clergy have claimed to be the essential intermediary between the rulers and God. They have crowned and dethroned kings and emperors and have been able to turn the masses for or against rulers. In effect, saying what the Jewish chief priests who rejected Jesus said: “We have no king but Caesar.” (John 19:15) Yet, Jesus clearly taught... “My kingdom is no part of this world.” (John 18:36)

and btw dont take this too personally ok, it is something every single believer goes through i guess, most never leave there maybe? and it is put like that in the Bible in order to hide wisdom from the wise (which is btw surely ppl who go “its like this and like that” right)

The ones it is hidden from are those who are wise in their own estimations, like the Pharisees of Jesus' day....highly educated by men's standards but totally clueless when it came to identifying the truth about the Messiah when it was staring them in the face. The clergy of Christendom are just like them....attending their theological colleges and seminaries to obtain degrees designed to impress men, not God. Press them for knowledge and you find that they too are clueless.

I believe that Jesus himself said "it was like this and like that".....the truth is right there...hidden in plain sight.
God is the one who adjusts the lens. Skepticism is good but when it goes too far, faith is sacrificed on the alter of human reasoning.

Hebrews 11:6....
"Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him."

Faith is like a wall that we build, one brick at a time....you can't ring up and order a truck load from eBay...or even one brick.
Faith comes from God. The apostles asked for more faith (Luke 17:5)......we can too.

 

[theefaith]

Immortality is a gift.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
It does not say that we are immortal. It says immortality is a gift to those who believe. That is how we have eternal life in Christ.

there is all eternal death

 

[BarneyFife]

There are two kinds of sin that the Bible speaks of.....the sin that incurs death, and the sin that doesn’t....but is still inexcusable.

There is one kind of sin—the transgression of the law. The wages of all sin is death.

There are degrees of seriousness.

There are degrees of offense.
All sin is deadly serious.
Sorry, I just don't do 'soft on sin.'
No quarter for sin.
It killed my Lord Jesus.

No human can be free of sin in this system,

Jesus is human, and He told people to stop sinning on several occasions.
He also told them to be perfect.
I'm not perfect.
My condition doesn't dictate the standard.

but there are sins which warrant punishment when committed by “brothers” (or sisters) in the congregation. God authorises the ones taking the lead to offer counsel and discipline to such ones....always lovingly.

“But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.” (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)
There it is....
Only those who show no repentance will be expelled.

I don't see it. Where is impenitence addressed in 1 Corinthians 5:11-13?
I'm not sure we're on track here going from non-combatancy (good article here?) to degrees and manners of disfellowship-deserving sin.
IMO, it would be more productive to talk about sin in general.
(I could be wrong, but I doubt it.)
There's this matter of how much sin is permissible to God.
It's easy enough to say, it's all forgivable except for the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
But then to say it's impossible to be sinless is to say that some sin is allowable.
So how much?
I'm perfectly comfortable with saying: Absolutely none. Period.
Forgivable is not equal to allowable.
The standard is perfect sinlessness.
I don't understand why people have a problem with that.
Children understand it perfectly.

 

[bbyrd009]

yet we give little kids a pass all the time, hmm

“You say that I am a king,” Jesus answered. “For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.”
38“What is truth?” Pilate asked.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is one kind of sin—the transgression of the law. The wages of all sin is death.

There are degrees of offense.
All sin is deadly serious.
Sorry, I just don't do 'soft on sin.'
No quarter for sin.
It killed my Lord Jesus.

I see sin as something inherited, like a genetic disease. Do I blame the person for the symptoms of their disease, or do I understand that they have limitations because a cure for his disease has not yet been administered?
Sin is inherited in our DNA from the consequences of Adam’s disobedience. (Romans 5:19) When it says in Psalm 103:14... “For he well knows how we are formed, Remembering that we are dust.”
God is well aware that we sin because we can’t help it.....that in no way excuses it, but explains why the provision is made to forgive us when we do....as long as there is repentance, we are guaranteed that God will not hold our sin against us since it is not really our fault. Mistakes in judgment....moments of weakness....a silly decision made on the spur of the moment.....these are things that sin creates in us, but the willful and deliberate stuff is NOT excusable unless we, like the prodigal son, come to our senses and humbly ask forgiveness. He sinned in a pretty awful way and yet when repentance was shown, and he wanted to return to home, chastened by his experience, his father ran to meet him and threw a banquet.

Jesus is human, and He told people to stop sinning on several occasions.
He also told them to be perfect.
I'm not perfect.
My condition doesn't dictate the standard.

The word “perfect” is misleading there, since there is no way to be “perfect” in our sinful state.

We must not make the common error of thinking that everything called “perfect” is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation. Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator, Jehovah God. So the “perfection” in us is relative or else we would sink into depression believing that we will never measure up to that impossible standard. Where would we find any joy?

Jesus was human...but without inherited sin. He dwelt among sinners but committed no sin himself. By dealing with the imperfection of those around him on a constant basis, he did not give his disciples an impossible standard to reach. He knew their limitations and did not demand more than they were capable of giving.

I don't see it. Where is impenitence addressed in 1 Corinthians 5:11-13?

It is in the judgment administered by the elders....the appointed shepherds whose job it is to keep the congregation both spiritually and morally clean. They are the ones who are authorized by God to judge the seriousness of the sin and the appropriate consequence....all the while recognizing that they too are under the judgment of Christ.
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you." (Hebrews 13:17)

I'm not sure we're on track here going from non-combatancy (good article here?) to degrees and manners of disfellowship-deserving sin.
IMO, it would be more productive to talk about sin in general.
(I could be wrong, but I doubt it.)

That is a big topic and a thread all by itself I think....

There's this matter of how much sin is permissible to God.
It's easy enough to say, it's all forgivable except for the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
But then to say it's impossible to be sinless is to say that some sin is allowable.
So how much?

You are using the word "allowable" when there is no allowance for any deliberate sin against God's commands.
Its not a dispensation either because there is no excuse to sin....but there are reasons that allow God to overlook the not so serious stuff if a contrite heart is responding correctly.
Paul put is this way....
"I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law." (Romans 7:21-25)
That is what makes sense to me as it did to Paul. There is a rescuer for this situation....we don't have to allow sin to constantly beat us up and make us feel bad about ourselves, but at the same time we don't excuse it either.

I'm perfectly comfortable with saying: Absolutely none. Period.
Forgivable is not equal to allowable.
The standard is perfect sinlessness.
I don't understand why people have a problem with that.
Children understand it perfectly.

Probably because it is an impossible standard for ourselves and everyone else. If God demanded perfection and sinlessness whilst he conducts this object lesson we find ourselves a part of......the very fact of the sin-atoning value of Christ's sacrifice is reason enough to keep things in their place....and retain our balance. Children understand when their parents are not happy with their behavior....we are all God's children and try our best to stay in his good books. He loves us and he is about correction and forgiveness, not punishment.

 

[Aunty Jane]

yet we give little kids a pass all the time, hmm

“You say that I am a king,” Jesus answered. “For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.”
38“What is truth?” Pilate asked.

I’m afraid I cannot always comprehend what you say or suggest...and I am not all that good at guessing....

So, I’ll go with, “what is truth?”.....it is what Jehovah gives to those in whom he finds an agreeable heart. A moldable child-like acceptance of what is taught in the scriptures.
It is not given to everyone because Paul mentions that God will allow deluded souls to retain their delusions because they love them, and don’t want to give them up.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-12...Paul mentions a restraining influence that was keeping a full blown apostasy from taking over Christianity before all of what would be included in our scripture was complete....then the restraint would be removed.....
He wrote....
“And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

The list of lies promoted as Christian truth is a lengthy one, but Christendom loves them and will cling to them till the end. The doubters will doubt till the end, the skeptics will keep their skepticism, and those who believe that they are somehow specially chosen, will also keep their delusions because it suits them.
The "truth" exists and so does the "wheat"....that is a fact. Its finding the diamond in a pile of broken glass. Can we do that without help? I don't think so....you first have to know what a diamond in the rough looks like. Without God's help, that would be impossible because a professional deceiver is at work in the world. Can he fool the majority? The fact is, he already has. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Also, God chooses us, as much as we want to believe that we choose him. (John 6:65)
No one can come to the Son, or to the truth about him, unless they receive an invitation from the Father. There is only one truth, and only God can reveal it.