A FEW QUICK COMMENTS ON FULFILLMENT ESCHATOLOGY

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David in NJ

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That is why it is important for people to know God, and have a relationship with the Father, and understand whom they become in Christ, and to live for God and Christ with the understanding that Christ Jesus lives in them.

Jesus Christ is the life of the believer he can work in and through us if we allow him.

What people believe about the end time is between themselves and God, friend, @David in NJ
Beautiful opening statement.
i certainly am not casting any judgment upon you

There is a way to understand what our Lord and the Apostles wrote for us to trust and have confidence in, so that we are not "tossed to and fro" by all the man-made doctrines.
 
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MatthewG

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People will and do cast judgement on others who do not believe like them; that why what we believe doesn’t matter as much as the relationship that is to be known a person can have and there are established spiritual principles founded throughout the New Testament; to become fortified in faith.

When we die something is going to happen; it’s because of the resurrection ; and Jesus victory over everything.

Therefore yes, I agree @David in NJ.
 
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MatthewG

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Continued from previous post - (Revelation 20) ebook-commentary-on-revelations-on-revelation-volumes-1-22

Jerusalem in 70 AD. However, with regard to Revelation 21-22, partial preterists typically stand with dispensationalists and what some might believe is a more “historic orthodoxy,” viewing these chapters as a picture, cast largely in OT language, of the glorified Church situated in the glorified World to Come.

However, regarding Revelation 20, there are serious differences of opinion between these groups. Since this is where we have landed in this chapter and book (Revelation 20), let’s try to understand the various eschatological views, especially as they relate to the word Millennium.

The basics of the millennial view of Revelation 20

We have those who identify the Millennium with the entire Church Era. In this view, the binding of Satan is a work of the Spirit made possible by the Cross of Christ. Because of these two great redemptive events, Satan can no longer deceive the nations so as to prevent the ingathering of the elect, nor can he launch the Last Battle until God so decrees (which we will read about in Chapter 20 Verses 1-3). The First Resurrection and the reign of the saints is a spiritual occurrence rather than physical and (perhaps) heavenly rather than earthly (20:4-6). Revelation 20:7-10 gives us the book’s one and only prediction of the Last Battle against the Church, in which the antichrist, who has already come (in the person of Nero), plays no part.

Other texts in the Revelation that seem to predict the Last Battle were actually fulfilled during the Great Tribulation of 66-70 AD when the Church was persecuted by Israel and Rome (11:7-10, 16:12- 16, 19:19- 21). As for 20:11-14, it gives us the Revelation’s one and only description of the Last Judgment at the end of the world. This is the fundamental millennial view of Revelation 20.


The Post-Millennial View
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For post-Millennials, the Millennium is a Golden Era still out in the future to us. Therefore, the binding of Satan has yet to occur (but will happen) perhaps when ethnic Israel at large turns to Lord (Romans 11:15). This will bring about “the first resurrection” and “the reign of the saints,” and these events will burst forth with a gospel of vitality that will fill the earth, not only with multitudes of devoted Christians, but also with widespread Kingdom right- eousness, peace, and joy.

Here, the Golden Era will indeed be marred by the release of Satan and by a final rebellion against Christ and His faithful remnant (which we will read about in 20:7- 9). This mysterious reversal will be offset by the fact that the Lord himself will immediately come again, visibly, in power, and with great glory (20:9), to raise the dead, judge the world in right- eousness, and bring in the new heavens and the new earth (20:10-15).

Note that for all partial preterists, Revelation 20 (alone) gives us the supernatural Parousia of Christ, the bodily resurrection, and the Last Judgment. But all the other texts that seem to predict that these things were actually fulfilled in 70 AD (6:12-17, 11:11-19, 14:14-20, 16:17-21,19:11!) To me, this makes the partial preterist view nonsensical, for how could we have passages in Revelation 6, 11, 14, 16, and even 19 fulfilled when they are clearly describing events that would occur only at the very end and total consummation of the age? So, entering into Chapter 20, I personally stand with the idea that thus far, Chapters 1-19 have been fulfilled, and the ques- tion remains, can we reasonably read Chapters 20-22 in the same light?

If not, then partial preterism is not a reasonable response because elements of partial preterism suggest fulfillment of verses where fulfillment is impossible if He hasn’t returned. Having come this far in the study of the Revelation, it seems that a proper escha- tology of the book can only be full preterist or perhaps some form of the historicist view.

A NOTE FROM FULFILLMENT SCHOLAR, KEN GENTRY

“Revelation 20 is probably the best known and most hotly debated chapter in Revelation. This is the chapter (the only chapter in the Bible!) that mentions Christ’s ruling and reigning with His saints for 1000 years... An extremely important issue arises as we move from Revelation 19 into chapter 20. The question arises regarding the relationship between these two passages: Is it one of recapitulation (i.e., repetition of the same events) or sequence (two different episodes with one following as a result of the other)?

The prevailing scholarly (non-premillennial) consensus today holds that the relationship between these two chapters is one of recapitulation. The recapitulationist sees Revelation 20:7–10 covering the same ground as and repeating Revelation 19:11–21.

In other words, they argue that the final eschatological battle at the second coming of Christ appears in both 19:11–21 and 20:7–10. This, of course, destroys the premillennial argument that sees the second coming (19:11– 21) leading to Christ’s subsequently establishing his millennium (20:1– 10). Consequently, premillennialists insist on sequence rather than reca- pitulation. Oddly enough, my evangelical preterist view agrees with the premillennialist regarding the relationship between these two passages — though with quite different results. I hold that Christ’s coming from
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heaven to wage war in Revelation 19:11 represents His judgment coming on Israel in AD 70. As such it reflects the theme of the book found in 1:7, where he comes against those tribes who pierced him (the Jews). Consequently, 20:1 presents the consequence of Christ’s judgment of Israel, Christianity’s first major enemy: the binding of Satan, the vindi- cation of the martyrs, and the spiritual rule of believers with Christ in the present age.”

By way of illustration, Gentry later makes some statements on the mention of Gog and Magog in Revelation 20 and says,
“R. Fowler White notes [that Revelation] 19:17–18 is “virtually a verbatim quotation” of Ezekiel 39:17–20 (1989: 326), and [Revelation] 20:7–10 specifically mentions “Gog and Magog” (Ezekiel 38:2; 39:1, 6), showing God destroying them with fire from heaven (cp. Rev 20:7–10; Eze 38:22; 39:6). Clearly then, John bases both “the Armageddon revolt (19:17–21) and the Gog-Magog revolt (20:7–10) on the same prophetic passage” (1989: 327)... both [Revelation] 19:19–21 and [Revelation] 20:7– 10 allude to the same OT eschatological battle prophecy (Ezekiel 38–39).

Adam Maarschalk adds that “Gentry notes that those who draw from these facts the premise that the events of Revelation 19:19-21 and Revela- tion 20:7-10 must refer to the same historical event,” and cites him, saying,
Though “significant correspondence” of a “highly peculiar” nature exists between Rev. 19 and Ezekiel 39, problems confront this interpretation. First, similarity does not entail identity.

Simply because John patterns both the battles of Rev. 19 and Rev. 20 on Eze. 38–39 does not mean they are the same battle. Similar language is used because similar funda- mental realities prevail: God is catastrophically judging oppressive enemies of His people. Many scholars see AD 70 as a microcosm of the final judgment. Consequently, we may expect the same imagery to apply to both AD 70 and the end. For instance, of those first century events, Bloesch states: “The catastrophe that befell the Jewish people in
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A.D. 70 is a sign of the final judgment.” Morris agrees, saying, “...[We see that there is] a theological unity between the two judgments, and that some of what Jesus says [in the Olivet Discourse] could apply equally well to both.” Second, as Bøe notes, John often makes double use of Ezekiel’s images (Bøe, 275).

The imagery from Ezekiel’s scroll vision in Eze. 2:8–33 applies both to Rev 5:1 and 10:8–11; Ezekiel’s measuring imagery in Eze 40–48 appears in quite distinct passages in Rev 11:1–2 and 21:10–27 (Bøe 371).

If John had wanted us to understand recapitula- tion rather than sequence in this passage [Revelation 20], John “did us no favor” by:
(a) recasting the beast and false prophet (19:20) as Gog and Magog (20:8);
(b) inserting a thousand-year period between the two battles (20:2–5);
(c) representing the period of Christian history from the first century to the end as “a short time” (12:12) and as “a thousand years” (20:2–6)...
(d) offering no hint that Satan is bound before Rev 19:11ff while empha- sizing his being bound before Rev 20:7ff; and
(e) telling us that Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet already are (20:10).
...[The judgment of] AD 70 (in Rev. 19:11–21) anticipates the final eschatological battle (Rev. 20:8–10)...

It even seems that the NT emphasizes AD 70 more frequently — probably because it was looming in the near future, directly relevant to first century Christians, and of catastrophic significance in re-orienting their thinking regarding the flow of redemptive history...

Indeed, it seems that the NT knows of only two great battles remaining in redemptive history: AD 70 which closes the old covenant era (and inaugurates the new covenant) and the Second Advent which closes the new covenant era (and history). Jesus certainly seems to link AD 70 and the Second Advent in his large Olivet Discourse... In addition, John limits Revelation’s prophecies to

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the near term (1:1, 3; 22:6, 10), which suggests a strong emphasis on AD 70.
That’s a lot of information, but I felt the need to cite it directly rather than try and refilter it all through my limited intellectual capacities.
 

MatthewG

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There are all types of scholars out there, David. It may mean fulfillment escatological view.
 

MatthewG

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Do you know there are different views out there on the Bible, or do you suspect there is just one all inclusive view one has to submit to in order to be right before God?
 

David in NJ

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Do you know there are different views out there on the Bible, or do you suspect there is just one all inclusive view one has to submit to in order to be right before God?
i am well aware of the many views of the Bible.

That bubble is burst when you realize God only established One Truth for ALL of mankind:
a.) only One Savior
b.) only One Name under Heaven whereby we MUST be saved
c.) only One Spirit of Truth
d.) only One House of the Living God = only One Temple
e.) only One Book of Life
f.) only One Inspiration/Interpretation from the Holy Spirit
g.) only One Second Coming of Christ with His Saints
h.) only One First Resurrection followed by the Rapture(ALL remaining Saints on earth).


The ONLY WAY is the Lonely Way = Matthew 7:13-14 , John 6:50-66 , 2 Timothy chapter 4
 
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amigo de christo

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Beautiful opening statement.
i certainly am not casting any judgment upon you

There is a way to understand what our Lord and the Apostles wrote for us to trust and have confidence in, so that we are not "tossed to and fro" by all the man-made doctrines.
JESUS is the way and the BIBLE is our book . LET the KING be praised .
 

MatthewG

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That is very good to know that you are educated in religious studies that you deem need to be held and good for the church, I personally love the idea of simply teaching the Bible, in a good contextual and wholesome manner to provides education and knowledge to others. That does not in anyway justify anyone before God though; it is the Lord Jesus Christ and believing in the Gospel, that God raised him from the dead, after having died and paid for the sins of the world on the cross. I also respect any view you hold, even if you differ with me personally just because of a different address of ones faith - there are many different measures of faith, according to Paul.

Romans 12:3

Humble Service in the Body of Christ​

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
 

amigo de christo

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What's a "fulfillment scholar"???
One that is filled so full of themselves if it were possible they could taste they own feet .
as for their so called fullfilment , it sure seems to contradict the plain truth of scripture in order to fullfill their own decievings .
Just keeping it real . Lambs feast from the bible and wont sit at tables of such men who twist the word
in order to FULLFILL their own agenda .
 

amigo de christo

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Do they really exist? From God's Perspective.............???
In their own minds they exist as scholars . But unto GOD they are seen for exactly what they are . MEN with agendas
which serve their own decievings and agendas and not GOD .
They are always learning but seem unable to come to the truth .
 

amigo de christo

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Do you know there are different views out there on the Bible, or do you suspect there is just one all inclusive view one has to submit to in order to be right before God?
You need to splain that to THE FALSE ALL INCLUSIVE MANY VIEW many PATHS TO GOD LIE .
they sell this world a bill of rotted goods . SOON enough it will be law . I sure seem to notice
their all inclusive view sure does welcome many views , CEPT THE FUNDAMNTAL TRUTH and those who wont budge f rom it .
NOPE those who cling to CHRIST ALONE are seen as dangers and a threat to humanity . CHOOSE YE THE RIGHT and ONLY SIDE
and way and path to GOD . FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST . Be sure its the JESUS of the bible too , cause another jesus aint gonna save .
 

David in NJ

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That is very good to know that you are educated in religious studies that you deem need to be held and good for the church, I personally love the idea of simply teaching the Bible, in a good contextual and wholesome manner to provides education and knowledge to others. That does not in anyway justify anyone before God though; it is the Lord Jesus Christ and believing in the Gospel, that God raised him from the dead, after having died and paid for the sins of the world on the cross. I also respect any view you hold, even if you differ with me personally just because of a different address of ones faith - there are many different measures of faith, according to Paul.

Romans 12:3
Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

i LOVE this Scripture = Thank You for posting it.

i SEE that God does the distributing of Gifts of His Holy Spirit and they do not come from men/scholars................

Should this not be the Acid-Test of Truth???
 

MatthewG

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From what I understand - God is the one who looks at the heart, while man looks at the outward appearance and makes judgements. Only God will judge. Thanks amigo.
 

David in NJ

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I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one Body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians ch4
 
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MatthewG

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Love and liberty, with peace with God and to live in peace with others is needful for the soul. That means to even live in difference with those who have different perspectives. Having love for God and love for others which doesn’t force anyone to have to accept their view but can take it for consideration at least. God is not gonna be mad at you. And your freedom is the ability to choose what one desires to do with life, and to strive for love and liberty with peace with God and if possibly live peacefully among others, by the spirit is needful for the soul.
 
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David in NJ

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Love and liberty, with peace with God and to live in peace with others is needful for the soul. That means to even live in difference with those who have different perspectives. Having love for God and love for others which doesn’t force anyone to have to accept their view but can take it for consideration at least. God is not gonna be mad at you. And your freedom is the ability to choose what one desires to do with life, and to strive for love and liberty with peace with God and if possibly live peacefully among others, by the spirit is needful for the soul.
AMEN

Know also this: that when JESUS spoke Truth for us to know the One True God, if we refuse it, we cannot be Saved.

Therefore JESUS says:
If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.