A FEW QUICK COMMENTS ON FULFILLMENT ESCHATOLOGY

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MatthewG

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Link Directive - All considerable information for the benefit of skeptics, believers, or unbelievers. Keep growing and maturing, look at the scriptures and seek truth, and may the spirit guide.


A FEW QUICK COMMENTS ON FULFILLMENT ESCHATOLOGY : From Revelation 20 Commentary - which can be sourced here - Publication | CollectionCommentary on Revelations on Revelation Volumes 1-22 | cult (sharing only four pages if I got past these two)

Full preterism is the view that the consummation of everything discussed in the Old and New Testaments is complete, having occurred in 70 AD at the destruction of Jerusalem.

For a full preterist, the “last days” are the last days of the Mosaic Covenant, contained in the (brief ) period between Christ’s ascension and His (spiritual) Parousia (or return) and completed with reward and judgment upon Israel. During that time, the whole (Jewish and Roman) “world” was evangelized, the fullness of ethnic Israel came in, the antichrist (i.e., Nero) arose to power, and the Great Tribulation (which lead up to Titus’ invasion of the Great City Jerusalem) occurred. Then in 70 AD, the actual Parousia (or return of Christ as promised) took place, and the last judgment of all took place. This also initiated the resurrection of the dead.

Unlike most full preterists, I submit that this all took place actu- ally and physically, whereas most full preterists believe it all took place spiritually instead of physically. At this time, the Kingdom (in its spiritual fullness) appeared with the new heavens and the new earth arriving (spiritually) with the New Jerusalem (as
1

opposed to the OLD) being established in heaven rather than on earth.
Since then, according to full preterists, believers, at their death, are spiritually resurrected into the kingdom world to come; unbe- lievers, at their death, are resurrected into the lake of fire: spiritu- ally, rather than physically. I tend to believe that the lake of fire is a purgative and temporary passing-through of any or all souls seeking entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven above instead of a punitive destination. I suggest this because it is “in the presence of the Lamb and His angels” and because it was made for Satan and his angels – and not Man.

People wonder, “Well, what lies ahead for the physical remains of the saints like you and I and/or for our sin-cursed earth?” To me, what lies ahead is what has lied behind for 2000 years. God call- ing, true-seekers responding, and God adding to His Kingdom Sons and Daughters while the faithless will enter a heavenly realm that is outside the walls of the New Jerusalem, which appear to be some sort of realm of darkness.

The Kingdom then, from this view, is the direct reign of God through Christ, by the Spirit - in and through those who are His Sons and Daughters. This Kingdom is entered into through faith in Christ and is, in essence, the promise of the Eternal Covenant.

Critics of full preterism maintain that the last days are not the last days of the Mosaic Covenant, but rather these are the days in which the New Covenant has been manifested in the earth. These suggest that these last days all began at Christ’s incarnation and will conclude at His parousia, which awaits the world. Let’s talk for a minute about partial preterism...

Regarding chapters 1-19, partial preterists are in accord with full preterists: all are focused on the Jewish/Roman persecution of the Church, the rise of the beast (Nero), and the Destruction of
 
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MatthewG

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Continued from previous post - (Revelation 20) Log In ‹ cult — WordPress

Jerusalem in 70 AD. However, with regard to Revelation 21-22, partial preterists typically stand with dispensationalists and what some might believe is a more “historic orthodoxy,” viewing these chapters as a picture, cast largely in OT language, of the glorified Church situated in the glorified World to Come.

However, regarding Revelation 20, there are serious differences of opinion between these groups. Since this is where we have landed in this chapter and book (Revelation 20), let’s try to understand the various eschatological views, especially as they relate to the word Millennium.

The basics of the millennial view of Revelation 20

We have those who identify the Millennium with the entire Church Era. In this view, the binding of Satan is a work of the Spirit made possible by the Cross of Christ. Because of these two great redemptive events, Satan can no longer deceive the nations so as to prevent the ingathering of the elect, nor can he launch the Last Battle until God so decrees (which we will read about in Chapter 20 Verses 1-3). The First Resurrection and the reign of the saints is a spiritual occurrence rather than physical and (perhaps) heavenly rather than earthly (20:4-6). Revelation 20:7-10 gives us the book’s one and only prediction of the Last Battle against the Church, in which the antichrist, who has already come (in the person of Nero), plays no part.

Other texts in the Revelation that seem to predict the Last Battle were actually fulfilled during the Great Tribulation of 66-70 AD when the Church was persecuted by Israel and Rome (11:7-10, 16:12- 16, 19:19- 21). As for 20:11-14, it gives us the Revelation’s one and only description of the Last Judgment at the end of the world. This is the fundamental millennial view of Revelation 20.


The Post-Millennial View
3


For post-Millennials, the Millennium is a Golden Era still out in the future to us. Therefore, the binding of Satan has yet to occur (but will happen) perhaps when ethnic Israel at large turns to Lord (Romans 11:15). This will bring about “the first resurrection” and “the reign of the saints,” and these events will burst forth with a gospel of vitality that will fill the earth, not only with multitudes of devoted Christians, but also with widespread Kingdom right- eousness, peace, and joy.

Here, the Golden Era will indeed be marred by the release of Satan and by a final rebellion against Christ and His faithful remnant (which we will read about in 20:7- 9). This mysterious reversal will be offset by the fact that the Lord himself will immediately come again, visibly, in power, and with great glory (20:9), to raise the dead, judge the world in right- eousness, and bring in the new heavens and the new earth (20:10-15).

Note that for all partial preterists, Revelation 20 (alone) gives us the supernatural Parousia of Christ, the bodily resurrection, and the Last Judgment. But all the other texts that seem to predict that these things were actually fulfilled in 70 AD (6:12-17, 11:11-19, 14:14-20, 16:17-21,19:11!) To me, this makes the partial preterist view nonsensical, for how could we have passages in Revelation 6, 11, 14, 16, and even 19 fulfilled when they are clearly describing events that would occur only at the very end and total consummation of the age? So, entering into Chapter 20, I personally stand with the idea that thus far, Chapters 1-19 have been fulfilled, and the ques- tion remains, can we reasonably read Chapters 20-22 in the same light?

If not, then partial preterism is not a reasonable response because elements of partial preterism suggest fulfillment of verses where fulfillment is impossible if He hasn’t returned. Having come this far in the study of the Revelation, it seems that a proper escha- tology of the book can only be full preterist or perhaps some form of the historicist view.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Continued from previous post - ebook-commentary-on-revelations-on-revelation-volumes-1-22

Jerusalem in 70 AD. However, with regard to Revelation 21-22, partial preterists typically stand with dispensationalists and what some might believe is a more “historic orthodoxy,” viewing these chapters as a picture, cast largely in OT language, of the glorified Church situated in the glorified World to Come.

However, regarding Revelation 20, there are serious differences of opinion between these groups. Since this is where we have landed in this chapter and book (Revelation 20), let’s try to understand the various eschatological views, especially as they relate to the word Millennium.

The basics of the millennial view of Revelation 20

We have those who identify the Millennium with the entire Church Era. In this view, the binding of Satan is a work of the Spirit made possible by the Cross of Christ. Because of these two great redemptive events, Satan can no longer deceive the nations so as to prevent the ingathering of the elect, nor can he launch the Last Battle until God so decrees (which we will read about in Chapter 20 Verses 1-3). The First Resurrection and the reign of the saints is a spiritual occurrence rather than physical and (perhaps) heavenly rather than earthly (20:4-6). Revelation 20:7-10 gives us the book’s one and only prediction of the Last Battle against the Church, in which the antichrist, who has already come (in the person of Nero), plays no part.

Other texts in the Revelation that seem to predict the Last Battle were actually fulfilled during the Great Tribulation of 66-70 AD when the Church was persecuted by Israel and Rome (11:7-10, 16:12- 16, 19:19- 21). As for 20:11-14, it gives us the Revelation’s one and only description of the Last Judgment at the end of the world. This is the fundamental millennial view of Revelation 20.


The Post-Millennial View
3


For post-Millennials, the Millennium is a Golden Era still out in the future to us. Therefore, the binding of Satan has yet to occur (but will happen) perhaps when ethnic Israel at large turns to Lord (Romans 11:15). This will bring about “the first resurrection” and “the reign of the saints,” and these events will burst forth with a gospel of vitality that will fill the earth, not only with multitudes of devoted Christians, but also with widespread Kingdom right- eousness, peace, and joy.

Here, the Golden Era will indeed be marred by the release of Satan and by a final rebellion against Christ and His faithful remnant (which we will read about in 20:7- 9). This mysterious reversal will be offset by the fact that the Lord himself will immediately come again, visibly, in power, and with great glory (20:9), to raise the dead, judge the world in right- eousness, and bring in the new heavens and the new earth (20:10-15).

Note that for all partial preterists, Revelation 20 (alone) gives us the supernatural Parousia of Christ, the bodily resurrection, and the Last Judgment. But all the other texts that seem to predict that these things were actually fulfilled in 70 AD (6:12-17, 11:11-19, 14:14-20, 16:17-21,19:11!) To me, this makes the partial preterist view nonsensical, for how could we have passages in Revelation 6, 11, 14, 16, and even 19 fulfilled when they are clearly describing events that would occur only at the very end and total consummation of the age? So, entering into Chapter 20, I personally stand with the idea that thus far, Chapters 1-19 have been fulfilled, and the ques- tion remains, can we reasonably read Chapters 20-22 in the same light?

If not, then partial preterism is not a reasonable response because elements of partial preterism suggest fulfillment of verses where fulfillment is impossible if He hasn’t returned. Having come this far in the study of the Revelation, it seems that a proper escha- tology of the book can only be full preterist or perhaps some form of the historicist view.
I see no basis for "spiritualizing" anything? Yes, the events of 70 AD were huge *for Israel,* but not for the rest of the nations, who had yet to be evangelized. The NT Church is going through trials and tribulations similar to what Israel went through in the OT era, and I don't think for this reason that Satan is in any sense "bound." He was *legally defeated* at the Cross, but his demise takes place at the 2nd Coming, which to me clearly has not yet taken place.
 

Truth7t7

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A FEW QUICK COMMENTS ON FULFILLMENT ESCHATOLOGY : From Revelation 20 Commentary - which can be sourced here - Publication | CollectionCommentary on Revelations on Revelation Volumes 1-22 | cult (sharing only four pages if I got past these two)

Full preterism is the view that the consummation of everything discussed in the Old and New Testaments is complete, having occurred in 70 AD at the destruction of Jerusalem.

For a full preterist, the “last days” are the last days of the Mosaic Covenant, contained in the (brief ) period between Christ’s ascension and His (spiritual) Parousia (or return) and completed with reward and judgment upon Israel. During that time, the whole (Jewish and Roman) “world” was evangelized, the fullness of ethnic Israel came in, the antichrist (i.e., Nero) arose to power, and the Great Tribulation (which lead up to Titus’ invasion of the Great City Jerusalem) occurred. Then in 70 AD, the actual Parousia (or return of Christ as promised) took place, and the last judgment of all took place. This also initiated the resurrection of the dead.

Unlike most full preterists, I submit that this all took place actu- ally and physically, whereas most full preterists believe it all took place spiritually instead of physically. At this time, the Kingdom (in its spiritual fullness) appeared with the new heavens and the new earth arriving (spiritually) with the New Jerusalem (as
1

opposed to the OLD) being established in heaven rather than on earth.
Since then, according to full preterists, believers, at their death, are spiritually resurrected into the kingdom world to come; unbe- lievers, at their death, are resurrected into the lake of fire: spiritu- ally, rather than physically. I tend to believe that the lake of fire is a purgative and temporary passing-through of any or all souls seeking entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven above instead of a punitive destination. I suggest this because it is “in the presence of the Lamb and His angels” and because it was made for Satan and his angels – and not Man.

People wonder, “Well, what lies ahead for the physical remains of the saints like you and I and/or for our sin-cursed earth?” To me, what lies ahead is what has lied behind for 2000 years. God call- ing, true-seekers responding, and God adding to His Kingdom Sons and Daughters while the faithless will enter a heavenly realm that is outside the walls of the New Jerusalem, which appear to be some sort of realm of darkness.

The Kingdom then, from this view, is the direct reign of God through Christ, by the Spirit - in and through those who are His Sons and Daughters. This Kingdom is entered into through faith in Christ and is, in essence, the promise of the Eternal Covenant.

Critics of full preterism maintain that the last days are not the last days of the Mosaic Covenant, but rather these are the days in which the New Covenant has been manifested in the earth. These suggest that these last days all began at Christ’s incarnation and will conclude at His parousia, which awaits the world. Let’s talk for a minute about partial preterism...

Regarding chapters 1-19, partial preterists are in accord with full preterists: all are focused on the Jewish/Roman persecution of the Church, the rise of the beast (Nero), and the Destruction of
Preterism is a false teaching, full or patrial

Scripture clearly teaches of a "Future" literal human man that will come (Man Of Sin/The Beast) a literal "Future" Abomination of Desolation, and a "Future" Great Tribulation
 

MatthewG

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Who gave you the authority to deem a view false though, Truth7t7 would be my question friend. Shouldn't others be encouraged to take a look at the most prominent views have to offer? There are 4 main views when it comes to Revelation anyway, with a lot of subviews with-in those views.
 

Truth7t7

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Who gave you the authority to deem a view false though, Truth7t7 would be my question friend. Shouldn't others be encouraged to take a look at the most prominent views have to offer? There are 4 main views when it comes to Revelation anyway, with a lot of subviews with-in those views.
Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 

Truth7t7

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Who gave you the authority to deem a view false though, Truth7t7 would be my question friend. Shouldn't others be encouraged to take a look at the most prominent views have to offer? There are 4 main views when it comes to Revelation anyway, with a lot of subviews with-in those views.
Strongs (Of A Man) Revelation 13:18

Strong’s Definitions
ἀνήρ anḗr, an'-ayr; a primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male):—fellow, husband, man, sir.

Strong’s Definitions
ἄνθρωπος ánthrōpos, anth'-ro-pos; from G435 and ὤψ ṓps (the countenance; from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:—certain, man.

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
 
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MatthewG

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That was not an answer. However, continue as you will.
 

Truth7t7

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That was not an answer. However, continue as you will.
Of course it was an answer to "Preterism" that denies a "Future" literal human man as the (Little Horn/Man Of Sin/The Beast)

"Preterism" Is A False Teaching, It's That Simple

Jesus Is The Lord
 

Truth7t7

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Who gave you the authority to deem a view false though, Truth7t7 would be my question friend. Shouldn't others be encouraged to take a look at the most prominent views have to offer? There are 4 main views when it comes to Revelation anyway, with a lot of subviews with-in those views.
Preterism builds the false claim that the gentiles and destruction seen in Revelation 11:2 below took place in 66-70AD Jerusalem?

This claim is "False" as the book of Revelation was written in 96AD, long after Jerusalems 66-70AD destruction, this fact alone destroys the very foundations of preterism, "Gone"!

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
 

MatthewG

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Here is the Wikipedia definition of what preterist:

Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which is a prefix denoting that something is "past" or "beyond". Adherents of preterism are known as preterists.

Preterism - Wikipedia

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Preterism
1671295997062.png



Where do you get the authority to deem a view false exactly, is my question that I am curious about. You can continue to say it is false, if you want to however, it is a validated view today in 2022, which is based on history and of course faith in God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who came, lived, died, was buried, and raised again three days later by God.

Bible dating of the books are debated constantly. I believe everything was written prior to the destruction personally. That is a subjective choice on my part.
 

Truth7t7

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Bible dating of the books are debated constantly. I believe everything was written prior to the destruction personally. That is a subjective choice on my part.

When Was the Book of Revelation Written?​


Wayne Jackson

When was the book of Revelation written?
Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).
A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.
In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.

External Evidence​

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The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

Irenaeus​

Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria​

Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).
Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

Victorinus​

Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:
When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).

Jerome​

Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,

In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).
To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.

Internal Evidence​

The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.

The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.

The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.

Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).

Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.

The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.

Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).

Arguments for the Early Date Answered​

In the absence of external evidence in support of an early date for Revelation, preterists generally rely on what they perceive as internal support for their view.

Writing Style Differences​

It is contended that the Gospel of John has a much smoother style of Greek than does the Apocalypse. Thus, the latter must have been written many years prior to the fourth Gospel—when the apostle was not so experienced in the literary employment of Greek.

In answer to this argument, we cite R. H. Gundry:

Archaeological discoveries and literary studies have recently demonstrated that along with Aramaic and Hebrew, Greek was commonly spoken among first century Palestinians. Thus John must have known and used Greek since his youth (1970, 365).
B. B. Warfield contends that:

the Apocalypse betrays no lack of knowledge of, or command over, Greek syntax or vocabulary; the difference lies, rather, in the manner in which a language well in hand is used, in style, properly so called; and the solution of it must turn on psychological, not chronological, considerations (Schaff and Herzog 1891, 2036).
R. H. Charles, author of the commentary on Revelation in the International Critical Commentary series, and perhaps the greatest expert on apocalyptic literature, regarded the so-called bad grammar as deliberate, for purposes of emphasis, and consistent with the citation of numerous Old Testament passages (Gundry, 365). It might be noted that in the 404 verses of Revelation, Westcott and Hort’s Greek New Testament gives over five hundred references and allusions to the Old Testament.

Finally, as McClintock and Strong point out:

It may be admitted that the Revelation has many surprising grammatical peculiarities. But much of this is accounted for by the fact that it was probably written down, as it was seen, “in the Spirit,” while the ideas, in all their novelty and vastness, filled the apostle’s mind, and rendered him less capable of attending to forms of speech. His Gospel and Epistles, on the other hand, were composed equally under divine influence, but an influence of a gentler, more ordinary kind, with much care, after long deliberation, after frequent recollection and recital of the facts, and deep pondering of the doctrinal truths which they involve (1064).
 

MatthewG

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I really do not mind, if you do not believe revelation was written before 70Ad, and you believe pretrism is false. Im not someone to debate about it, because that is really a waste of time.

I just wanted to know where you got your authority from and it seems by other men?
 

Truth7t7

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Bible dating of the books are debated constantly. I believe everything was written prior to the destruction personally. That is a subjective choice on my part.

(Part 2)​

No Mention of Jerusalem’s Destruction​

It is claimed that Revelation must have been penned before A.D. 70 since it has no allusion to the destruction of Jerusalem; rather, it is alleged, it represents both the city and the temple as still standing.

In response we note the following points.

First, if John wrote this work near A.D. 96, there would be little need to focus upon the destruction of Jerusalem since the lessons of that catastrophe would have been well learned in the preceding quarter of a century.

However, it must be noted that some scholars see a veiled reference to Jerusalem’s destruction in 11:8, where “the great city,” in which the Savior was crucified (Jerusalem), is called Sodom—not merely because of wickedness, but due to the fact that it was a destroyed city of evil (Zahn 1973, 306).

Second, the contention that the literal city and temple were still standing, based upon chapter eleven, ignores the express symbolic nature of the narrative. Salmon says that it is:

difficult to understand how anyone could have imagined that the vision represents the temple as still standing. For the whole scene is laid in heaven, and the temple that is measured is the heavenly temple (11:19; 15:5). We have only to compare this vision with the parallel vision of a measuring-reed seen by Ezekiel (ch. 40), in which the prophet is commanded to measure—surely not the city which it is stated had been demolished fourteen years previously, but the city of the future seen by the prophet in vision (1904, 238).

Nero Associated with 666​

Some argue for an early date of the Apocalypse by asserting that the enigmatic 666 (13:18) is a reference to Nero. This is possible only by pursuing the most irresponsible form of exegesis.

To come up with such an interpretation one must:
  1. add the title “Caesar” to Nero’s name;
  2. compute the letter-number arrangement on the basis of Hebrew, whereas the book was written in Greek; and
  3. alter the spelling of “Caesar” by dropping the yodh in the Hebrew.
All of this reveals a truly desperate attempt to find a reference to Nero in the text.

Additionally, Leon Morris has pointed out that Irenaeus discussed a number of possibilities for deciphering the 666, but he did not even include Nero in his list, let alone regard this as a likely conjecture (1980, 38). Noted critic Theodor Zahn observed that Nero was not even suggested as a possibility until the year 1831 (447).

In view of the foregoing evidence, a very strong case can be made for dating Revelation at about A.D. 96. Accordingly, the theory of realized eschatology, which is grounded upon the necessity of the Apocalypse having been written prior to A.D. 70, is shown to be without the necessary foundation for its successful defense, to say nothing of the scores of other scriptural difficulties that plague it.
 

MatthewG

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(Part 2)​

No Mention of Jerusalem’s Destruction​

It is claimed that Revelation must have been penned before A.D. 70 since it has no allusion to the destruction of Jerusalem; rather, it is alleged, it represents both the city and the temple as still standing.

In response we note the following points.

First, if John wrote this work near A.D. 96, there would be little need to focus upon the destruction of Jerusalem since the lessons of that catastrophe would have been well learned in the preceding quarter of a century.

However, it must be noted that some scholars see a veiled reference to Jerusalem’s destruction in 11:8, where “the great city,” in which the Savior was crucified (Jerusalem), is called Sodom—not merely because of wickedness, but due to the fact that it was a destroyed city of evil (Zahn 1973, 306).

Second, the contention that the literal city and temple were still standing, based upon chapter eleven, ignores the express symbolic nature of the narrative. Salmon says that it is:


Nero Associated with 666​

Some argue for an early date of the Apocalypse by asserting that the enigmatic 666 (13:18) is a reference to Nero. This is possible only by pursuing the most irresponsible form of exegesis.

To come up with such an interpretation one must:
  1. add the title “Caesar” to Nero’s name;
  2. compute the letter-number arrangement on the basis of Hebrew, whereas the book was written in Greek; and
  3. alter the spelling of “Caesar” by dropping the yodh in the Hebrew.
All of this reveals a truly desperate attempt to find a reference to Nero in the text.

Additionally, Leon Morris has pointed out that Irenaeus discussed a number of possibilities for deciphering the 666, but he did not even include Nero in his list, let alone regard this as a likely conjecture (1980, 38). Noted critic Theodor Zahn observed that Nero was not even suggested as a possibility until the year 1831 (447).

In view of the foregoing evidence, a very strong case can be made for dating Revelation at about A.D. 96. Accordingly, the theory of realized eschatology, which is grounded upon the necessity of the Apocalypse having been written prior to A.D. 70, is shown to be without the necessary foundation for its successful defense, to say nothing of the scores of other scriptural difficulties that plague it.

There are always people who hold a different view.

If you do not like that people hold a different view than you, do you get really mad at them?
 

MatthewG

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Ill let you know my friend and all who may come read this;

I do not mind what many people believe.

There are people who believe that demons are still out there possessing people, they believe that the Devil is still on the march to steal souls away from God, they believe that this world is going to end one day (of course in death that is a promise), they believe that they live in the last days. Some believe that Jesus has already came back, Some do not believe that Jesus has came back and there is more to expect before that ever happens.

People can believe whatever they want. When it comes to all of these things which has nothing to do with Salvation anyway, so I believe it is important for people to view the above content, but you do not have to believe any word of it if you choose not to. That is why God gave us free-will to decide for ourselves. Which is what many people do, who enjoy their independence, which some choose to rely on God, and the Lord Jesus Christ; while others mays not do so as much relying on God even at all in certain circumstances.

What is important is the growth of a person learning who Jesus is, and to learn what he had done, and listen to the stories he tells, and the adventures of the apostles and hardships they endured, encouragement given, and to put Christ on, and to put God first to live by the spirit in faith on the Lord who came, died, lived, was buried, and raised again for you to have newness of life in Christ if you so choose to go down that path way.

Which I believe that pathway of abiding in Christ leads to a path of suffering, but also one of peace, and comfort, and knowing they are a Child of God, or Son or Daughter, and are loved and cared about and desired to be helped if asking God to help you with wisdom, insight, fear, doubt, unhappiness, uncertainty, loneliness, grief, sadness, anything that you are going through, and to pray and ask God to help others as you go along living for Him, to have love for God and love for your neighbor in the name of Yeshua.
 

Timtofly

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I really do not mind, if you do not believe revelation was written before 70Ad, and you believe pretrism is false. Im not someone to debate about it, because that is really a waste of time.

I just wanted to know where you got your authority from and it seems by other men?
The authority of preterist comes from other men.

What is the point of declaring authority to begin with? Any eschatology that leaves Scripture and relies heavily on interpretation, is reliant on human authority.

There is literally no Scripture stating all prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD. Anything based on 70AD as the fulfillment, is 100% human authority. It is only interpretation and opinion.
 

Truth7t7

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There are always people who hold a different view.

If you do not like that people hold a different view than you, do you get really mad at them?
You can belive as you wish

You have been clearly shown there will be a future human man that will fulfill the (Little Horn/Man Of Sin/The Beast)

You have been clearly shown that the Revelation was written in 96AD, long after the 66-70AD destruction of Jerusalem

Preterism is a false teaching, 66-70AD Jerusalem played absolutely no part in fulfillment

Jesus Is The Lord
 
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MatthewG

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The authority of preterist comes from other men.
It’s just a view, as described in
Post #11. No one has to believe anything, test information from the Bible and history.

I don’t see the big deal.
What is the point of declaring authority to begin with? Any eschatology that leaves Scripture and relies heavily on interpretation, is reliant on human authority.

It shows no one has any authority over scripture that is why I asked the question.

Most just claim cause they have a Bible they have authority.

The only authority I believe is God; and I don’t believe we have all the answers but he gave us a mind/will/emotion to think for oneself along with the use of history to decide for ourselves.

Something’s are tough to go through.

Of course we also have our worldly law to abide by which Paul encouraged people to do so in Romans 13 to stay out of trouble.

There is literally no Scripture stating all prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD. Anything based on 70AD as the fulfillment, is 100% human authority. It is only interpretation and opinion.

There is a lot of evidence though for it to become to fruition within a generation according to Jesus.

To simply just throw all that away is nonsensical in my opinion.
 
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