A Form of godliness

[farouk]

Over what? I'm sorry, I'm getting pretty confused by many posts that seem to wander all over the place.

What it seems to me is that I'm saying YHWH is not referring to angels, excepting the Messenger of YHWH, the "Angel of the LORD". And the argument against me is, "Yes, Elohim DOES refer to other than God".

So maybe you can simplify what this conversation is about?

Much love!

I too have been confused; at a certain point having stated the Scriptures it seems time to bow out....

 

[farouk]

.....And the Son of Man. They are both titles of Christ, one referring to His deity and the other referring to His humanity.

@PinSeeker
The Son of Man title and the Son of God title are brought gloriously together in the Incarnation; John 1:14; Colossians 2:9.

 

[PinSeeker]

...at a certain point having stated the Scriptures it seems time to bow out....

Yes, the Words of the prophet Isaiah ring loud and clear:

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My Word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it." [Isaiah 55:10-11]

Grace and peace to you, Farouk. And all, of course.

 

[farouk]

Yes, the Words of the prophet Isaiah ring loud and clear:

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My Word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it." [Isaiah 55:10-11]

Grace and peace to you, Farouk. And all, of course.

@PinSeeker I love that passage; I often think of it..........

 

[Wrangler]

So maybe you can simplify what this conversation is about?

This conversation has devolved to your epistemology lacking. Specifically, logic and definitions.

Since you cannot grasp definitions, conversation is impossible. We need to be speaking the same language in order for a conversation to ocurr. And although you use the same words, you apply connotional meanings only. To show by way of comparison:

Humans are from Earth but not all life forms on Earth are humans. Surely, you grasp this. The same with heaven.

If we talk about heavenly beings, elohim, it likewise does not mean we are talking ONLY about the Supreme Being in heaven.

Many words have different senses. In English, the word "set" has the most senses with about 18.
There may be a sense of the word elohim that can be taken to mean only the Supreme Being but that is not the only sense.
​

From Elohim - Wikipedia:

Elohim (Hebrew: אֱלֹהִים, romanized: ʾĔlōhīm: [(ʔ)eloˈ(h)im]), the plural of אֱלוֹהַּ‎ (ʾĔlōah), is a Hebrew word meaning "gods". Although the word is plural, in the Hebrew Bible it usually takes a singular verb and refers to a single deity,[1][2][3][4] particularly (but not always) the God of Israel.[1][2][3][4][5][6] At other times it refers to deities in the plural.[1][2][3][4][5][6]
​

Feel free to read up on those 6 references on the various senses of the word elohim.

 

[Earburner]

When discussing "Trinity stuff".... It really does not matter who Gabriel is or Michael, as they are created beings., not the CREATOR, and not the "Word who became flesh".
Now, if you want it to get interesting , then go deep and study Melchizedek, also spelled Melchisedech

In the OT, under the OC, Michael the Archangel is not a created being. He is Jesus in cognito, the Messiah who was NOT YET made to be flesh. Do you know why?
Rom.16
[25] Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[26] But NOW is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

[marks]

Feel free to read up on those 6 references on the various senses of the word elohim.

And why are you talking about the uses and meaning of elohim? I was talking about YHWH.

Much love!

 

[Rich R]

"let Us".... (God and Pre-incarnate Word)... John 1.

Make MAN.... In "OUR image". (Thats 2). 1+1 = OUR. = US.

See that Math?

Now.... "Angels."

1.) are not "man"
2.) Are not created in the "image of God".

Start in the Gospels then read all the the Epistles, then the Revelation.
There is a REASON that only "Man" is created "in the IMAGE" of God...
There is a REASON that "ADAM" is the 1st.....and JESUS, is the "2nd Adam".

What is God's image? God is spirit.

John 4:24,

God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.​

In Genesis God:

1. "created" man in His image: spirit (Gen 1:27)
   
2. "formed" man from the ground: body (Gen 2:7)
   
3. "breathed" into man the breath of life: soul (Gen 2:7)

Originally, man was body, soul, and spirit. Adam lost the spirit and hence his direct connection with God. Man became "the natural man" of body and soul. Hence, he lost direct connection with God. God became foolish to the natural man of body and soul.

1 Cor 2:14,

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.​

The new birth is getting the spirit back. Jesus promised that he'd send the gift of holy spirit to those who believe (Acts 1:5). That is exactly what happened for the first time on the day of Pentecost. Man was once again as originally designed, i.e., body, soul, and spirit.

1 Thess 5:23,

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Hence Christians have that direct connection once again.

Eph 2:18,

For through him we both (Jew and Gentile, context) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
​

Angels are not spiritual beings?

Heb 1:13-14,

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
​

I think angels are spirits, hence the same image as God.

 

[Earburner]

Do we look like the angels?

No, but angels can look like us.
Genesis 1[19] And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
[2] And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
> Why would Lot think that the angels should wash their feet? Because they were physical.

John.1
[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

John1:51 Fulfilled:
Mark 9
[2] And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
[3] And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
[4] And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

> Really?? The disciples knew what Moses and Elija looked like, after 500+ years had passed, knowing that there were NEVER any "images" made of them, which would be against the 2nd Commandment of the Law??
You all need to think this through!

We all may have seen an angel or two!
Heb.13
[2] Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

 

[Rich R]

John.1
[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

John1:51 Fulfilled:
Mark 9
[2] And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
[3] And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
[4] And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

> Really?? The disciples knew what Moses and Elija looked like, after 500+ years had passed, knowing that there were NEVER any "images" made of them, which would be against the 2nd Commandment of the Law??
You all need to think this through!

Mark 9 fulfilling John 1:51 is a huge assumption. I'm afraid you are making the same mistake as Adam and Eve. God said they would die. The devil said they would not die. If you think Elias and Moses actually appeared on the mountain, then you are siding with the devil, saying that they did not "really" die.

Matthew recorded the same incident as Mark.

Matt 17:9,

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
​

The disciples saw a vision. They did not actually see Elias or Moses since. They were dead!

Better research John 1:51 some more. It has nothing to do with the transfiguration.

 

[Earburner]

Mark 9 fulfilling John 1:51 is a huge assumption. I'm afraid you are making the same mistake as Adam and Eve. God said they would die. The devil said they would not die. If you think Elias and Moses actually appeared on the mountain, then you are siding with the devil, saying that they did not "really" die.

Evidently you must have "speed read" what I wrote, and never digested it. Try again, but go slowly.
What did the disciples REALLY SEE?

 

[Rich R]

Evidently you must have "speed read" what I wrote, and never digested it. Try again, but go slowly.
What did the disciples REALLY SEE?

Although I've never learned to speed read, perhaps I did miss what you said the first time around so I read it slowly and three times. I'm not sure what you are saying.

 

[Earburner]

Although I've never learned to speed read, perhaps I did miss what you said the first time around so I read it slowly and three times. I'm not sure what you are saying.

Thank you for your patience.
Unfortunately, "church-ianity" has buried Christians with their view of thinking that the disciples really did see Elijah and Moses, but then turn around and point to no evidence that the Lord's prophetic words about them "seeing heaven open, and the angels ascending and descending upon the Son of man." was fulfilled. Are we to assume that such a crucial event happened, but was not recorded? I should say not!

So then where is Heaven located? Up in the clouds, or somewhere beyond them? No, not at all. I perceive and believe that "Heaven" is all around us, even beside us, but it is a different dimension.

When Jesus went up into a mountain, with the few disciples following, at the place of His choosing He Transfigured Himself into the Glory of His brightness of how He really is.
In that moment, right where He was, Heaven opened. His brightness was so immense and dazzling, the disciples groped for the words to describe the brightness of the event.

Now, if you will, imagine yourself looking into, and through, a light of such a magnitude. Today we have light with such intensity.
Now, any attempt to keep your eyes wide open to see anything in the immediate area is going to be vague, if not altogether very painful.
Squinting briefly and closing them from time to time, is about the best that you can do.
Iows, your description of WHAT you see beyond the pervasive light, is going to be inaccurate and questionable for a conclusion, to actually say that one saw for detail people that they never saw before or knew, that DIED 500+ years ago from that day.
That's why I say John 1:51 WAS FULFILLED through Jesus' Transfiguration. They saw Heaven open, and then they saw angels, and NOT what they thought they saw.

 

[face2face]

Correct.
God is the Creator and Christ is the Word of Creation ... and Angels are just created beings.

If God wants to give His power to Angels, His Son to you - you say He is not able to?
It's an ignorant position really...considering the text that stands against you.

 

[face2face]

No, but angels can look like us.
Genesis 1[19] And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
[2] And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
> Why would Lot think that the angels should wash their feet? Because they were physical.

John.1
[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

John1:51 Fulfilled:
Mark 9
[2] And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
[3] And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
[4] And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

> Really?? The disciples knew what Moses and Elija looked like, after 500+ years had passed, knowing that there were NEVER any "images" made of them, which would be against the 2nd Commandment of the Law??
You all need to think this through!

We all may have seen an angel or two!
Heb.13
[2] Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Wow - head shaking on this one!
Earburner thinks she proceeds the Angels.
Righteo.

 

[Wrangler]

And why are you talking about the uses and meaning of elohim? I was talking about YHWH.

We’re you?

Elohim is the mighty one, or mighty ones, and refers to whomever it does in context, of course.

Sad that you have to pretend that Jesus was ever known as YHWH.

 

[face2face]

We were speaking of YHWH.

This is spinning in circles.

Much love!

No we weren't - go back... you introduce Yahweh - I said Yahweh Elohim....read Genesis 3:22 again and see Yahweh (this is God) and Elohim (this is the angels) God manifest through mighty ones!

Also we have likewise shown how Angels can bare the Yahweh name which by the way you acknowledged!

Mate, you are like shifting sands - truly, I mean that!

Also, still waiting for you to acknowledge the context to Genesis 3:22 is sin!...which cannot relate to your Trinity - but to the angels, who are likewise created beings who also have diving nature as a result of Hebrews 11:6. (God doesn't change!)

F2F

 

[face2face]

I'm sorry, I've tried to be interested in a discussion with you, but it's now working.

Much love!

I believe you can see Genesis 1-3 isn't doing for you what you want it...that much is clear. I will continue to show how the Angels are the Elohim and how it is in their image also we are made. Feel free to chime in as you want.

 

[Earburner]

Wow - head shaking on this one!
Earburner thinks she proceeds the Angels.
Righteo.

It's OK if you don't understand.
1Cor.2[5] That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God.

I expect that most won't, or don't want to understand. Because if they did understand, it puts a big question about why they falsely believe that the "Two Witnesses" in Revelation are going to be Moses and Elijah, or maybe Enoch.
And God forbid, there are no other "scholarly"
choices:)

 

[face2face]

It's OK if you don't understand.
1Cor.2[5] That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God.

I expect that most won't, or don't want to understand. Because if they did understand, it puts a big question about why they falsely believe that the "Two Witnesses" in Revelation are going to be Moses and Elijah, or maybe Enoch.
And God forbid, there are no other "scholarly"
choices:)

It's just that your knowledge of the reward of the Saints isn't as the Masters teaching as per Mark 12:25; Luke 20:36. I get most Christians today like to "make up" their own teaching, which is a by product of trinitarian theology - its a learnt behavior to ignore the text for "other" teachings.

It's sad really because the insights into the Angelic Host is really beautiful and you discount this for no viable reason. Hebrews 1:14

F2F