A polite question for pretribbers

[Bible Highlighter]

The change isn't mentioned in the same book the moving is mentioned so not the same event but events that happen closely.

Again, I just read this verse and believe it.

1 Corinthians 15:52
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

It talks about how we will be raised and changed in the same event within the same verse. There is no break in time in the describing of this event.

 

[ewq1938]

Again, I just read this verse and believe it.

1 Corinthians 15:52
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

It talks about how we will be raised and changed in the same event within the same verse. There is no break in time in the describing of this event.

You are mixing things up. The dead will be raised which is a resurrection from dead to alive. "we shall be changed" is changing the living saints bodies from mortal to immortal. The rapture is not mentioned in that verse because it is a separate event.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are mixing things up. The dead will be raised which is a resurrection from dead to alive. "we shall be changed" is changing the living saints bodies from mortal to immortal. The rapture is not mentioned in that verse because it is a separate event.

Not at all. They are not being resurrected from the dead to life so as to have a flesh and blood body.
Paul says, “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body” (1 Corinthians 15:44).
Then Paul says, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 15:50).
Paul says, “this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Corinthians 15:53).

What immortality?

Well, Jesus said, “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” (Luke 20:36).

The flesh and blood bodily resurrection happens for the Raptured sainted way later after the Millennium on the New Earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are mixing things up. The dead will be raised which is a resurrection from dead to alive. "we shall be changed" is changing the living saints bodies from mortal to immortal. The rapture is not mentioned in that verse because it is a separate event.

Yes it is the future "Catching Up" rapture

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are mixing things up. The dead will be raised which is a resurrection from dead to alive. "we shall be changed" is changing the living saints bodies from mortal to immortal. The rapture is not mentioned in that verse because it is a separate event.

1 Corinthians 15:52 - trumpet sounds.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 - trumpet of God.

1 Corinthians 15:52 - dead shall be raised
1 Thessalonians 4:16 - dead in Christ shall rise.

If 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 was describing the commonly understood flesh and blood resurrection then it would not be a mystery as Paul claims because we know Martha was aware of physical resurrection when talking with Jesus (John 11:24). So the mystery revealed is that this is the Rapture (Which is also a spiritual resurrection of us being like that of angels).

 

[Truth7t7]

Not at all. They are not being resurrected from the dead to life so as to have a flesh and blood body.
Paul says, “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body” (1 Corinthians 15:44).
Then Paul says, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 15:50).
Paul says, “this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Corinthians 15:53).

What immortality?

Well, Jesus said, “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” (Luke 20:36).

The flesh and blood bodily resurrection happens for the Raptured sainted way later after the Millennium on the New Earth.

No such thing as a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

 

[ewq1938]

The flesh and blood bodily resurrection happens for the Raptured sainted way later after the Millennium on the New Earth.

The raptured saints never die so they do not experience a resurrection. Only the dead in Christ will be resurrected.

The dead are not raptured.
The living are not resurrected.

 

[ewq1938]

No such thing as a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

No such thing as a current Millennial Kingdom on this earth

Jesus does not return in fire and final judgement, and is not dissolving this earth by fire.

Such things exist only in the imaginations of Amill, not found in the bible.

 

[Truth7t7]

No such thing as a current Millennial Kingdom on this earth

Jesus does not return in fire and final judgement, and is not dissolving this earth by fire.

Such things exist only in the imaginations of Amill, not found in the bible.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The raptured saints never die so they do not experience a resurrection. Only the dead in Christ will be resurrected.

The dead are not raptured.
The living are not resurrected.

Too late. I already made my case with Scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth

Rev 20 promises that kingdom. It sure isn't here right now. Junk theology.

 

[ewq1938]

Too late. I already made my case with Scripture.

No, you didn't. The living aren't resurrected. Want to know why?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No such thing as a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

Sorry. I believe this passage below.

Revelation 20:4-5
4 “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

 

[Truth7t7]

Sorry. I believe this passage below.

Revelation 20:4-5
4 “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

The verses you present is in the Lord's eternal spiritual realm "The Souls" "The Dead"

There isn't a kingdom on this earth seen, with mortal humans present as many claim

A future Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a man made fairytale, found no place in scripture

 

[Truth7t7]

Rev 20 promises that kingdom. It sure isn't here right now. Junk theology.

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Yes it is. It's foolish to even claim it isn't. Don't listen to a doctrine that can't understand what a thousand of years means, what being beheaded means, what coming back to life means and certainly don't listen to any doctrine that can't understand where all of that is happening.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The verses you present is in the Lord's eternal spiritual realm "The Souls" "The Dead"

There isn't a kingdom on this earth seen, with mortal humans present as many claim

A future Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a man made fairytale, found no place in scripture

It says they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Lived means that they are alive on this earth. Lived does not mean they are living in some spiritual realm. It continues to say that the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was finished thereby comparing death with life. So yeah. It’s kind of obvious unless one simply does not like what the Bible says on this point.

 

[Truth7t7]

It says they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Lived means that they are alive on this earth. Lived does not mean they are living in some spiritual realm. It continues to say that the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was finished thereby comparing death with life. So yeah. It’s kind of obvious unless one simply does not like what the Bible says on this point.

God is of the living not of the dead, all believers weather living in physical bodies or those dead believers waiting for the resurrection they are "All Living And Reigning" with Jesus Christ

Luke 20:38KJV
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

"Thousand Years" in Revelation 20:4-6 is doing nothing more than explaining that those seen are in the Lord's eternal spiritual, where one day is a thousand years, no literal earthly time "The Souls" "The Dead"

Is It One Literal Day Or One Literal Thousand Years?

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[Ezra]

I’m only interested in the answer a pretribber would give me. Those are the only answers I will be listening to or reading. (That doesn’t mean you can’t post another boxing match, just that I won’t read it. Lol) I’ve tried to ask the question in a thread or two but I guess it’s just gotten lost in the brouhaha.

So my question, what I want to hear you lay out for me, is how you fit into your eschatological framework, one particular passage. I’m looking for something I may not have considered in my brain regarding it. I won’t be arguing with you, I just really want to hear what you have to say about it.

Okay, so it says in Revelation that those who come out of the tribulation who did not receive the mark of the beast will be part of the first resurrection. How do you fit that verse into your framework? I’ll bold the parts that I can’t fit into pretrib in my brain.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Thank you, by the way, for giving me any thoughts about it I may not have seen.

i most certainly can not prove by this saith the Lord. i am pre trib i do find in scripture God has not appointed us to wrath but obtain salvation. i also find no place in scripture where the Just will experience the wrath of God as we find all through REV. after chapter 4 the Church is no longer mentioned. why would we go through the part wanting to seek death and can not? why would a child of God hid himself in a cave .

yes we will experience tribulation but not the great tribulation. BTW i doubt you can prove your part either. because it aint there . actually the dead in Christ go first then those alive and remaining .
i dont get to concerned about it all. God will take care of us. . can you imagine experiencing the wrath of God with those who rejected him.

 

[ewq1938]

i also find no place in scripture where the Just will experience the wrath of God as we find all through REV. after chapter 4 the Church is no longer mentioned.

The church is mentioned many times past chp 4. Wrath from satan against the church is the entire purpose of the beasts of Rev 13 where the two prophets and many saints are killed and beheaded.