A polite question for pretribbers

[1stCenturyLady]

Rev 12 has two 3.5 year periods itself, both happening before the GT starts found in Rev 13 which itself has only one 3.5 period expressed in 1260 days and 42 months. So that's 3 separate periods of 3.5 years happening at separate times.

I thought so too at one time, but they are actually the same 3.5 years period mentioned each for different reasons.

 

[ewq1938]

I thought so too at one time, but they are actually the same 3.5 years period mentioned each for different reasons.

That's not possible.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This happens BEFORE the war in heaven and satan being cast out of heaven.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This happens AFTER the war in heaven and satan being cast out of heaven.

The next 3.5 year period is AFTER this, in the war he starts against Christians known as the GT.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That's not possible.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This happens BEFORE the war in heaven and satan being cast out of heaven.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This happens AFTER the war in heaven and satan being cast out of heaven.

The next 3.5 year period is AFTER this, in the war he starts against Christians known as the GT.

Here is how it is broken down, but mentioned in two different sections. Then the persecution of the woman continues in the first part of Revelation 3. The Book of Revelation is a bunch of visions, and they are not in chronological order, but sometimes say the same thing two different ways with different players and at different times.

The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon​

12 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.


3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Satan Thrown Out of Heaven​

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

The Woman Persecuted​

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Beast from the Sea​

13 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having ]seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”


5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The Beast from the Earth​

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I’m only interested in the answer a pretribber would give me. Those are the only answers I will be listening to or reading. (That doesn’t mean you can’t post another boxing match, just that I won’t read it. Lol) I’ve tried to ask the question in a thread or two but I guess it’s just gotten lost in the brouhaha.

So my question, what I want to hear you lay out for me, is how you fit into your eschatological framework, one particular passage. I’m looking for something I may not have considered in my brain regarding it. I won’t be arguing with you, I just really want to hear what you have to say about it.

Okay, so it says in Revelation that those who come out of the tribulation who did not receive the mark of the beast will be part of the first resurrection. How do you fit that verse into your framework? I’ll bold the parts that I can’t fit into pretrib in my brain.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Thank you, by the way, for giving me any thoughts about it I may not have seen.

Hi:

I fit it exactly where it fits.

IN chapter 19 we see the return of Jesus which corresponds to Matt. 24. We must remember that not all eschatological passages give the full answer or write every point. there are bits and pieces scattered throughout Scripture.

But those who lived during the trib -period (not church saints but tribulation saints) who were killed as Scripture says, will be resurrected for the millenial kingdom on earth.

They are saved and eternally secure but reign with Jesus on earth.

The church as Queen consort reigns from our heavenly place Jesus prepared for us.

After teh 1000 year kingdom- one last rebellion, and God establishes "eternity" with heaven coming down to teh new earth.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

When you read Revelation 12 AND 13 you see there are two 3.5 year periods equaling 7 years. Note the word "continued" in Revelation 13. That is the second 3.5 years.

You are missing the boat on the continue here sister, it simply means he RULES (continues) for 42 months.

#4160 ποιέω poieo {poy-eh'-o}

apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; TDNT - 6:458,895; v
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) to make
1a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct,
form, fashion, etc.
1b) to be the authors of, the cause
1c) to make ready, to prepare
1d) to produce, bear, shoot forth
1e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self
1f) to make a thing out of something
1g) to (make i.e.) render one anything
1g1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to
appoint or ordain one that
1g2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything
1h) to put one forth, to lead him out
1i) to make one do something
1i1) cause one to
1j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)


Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):—abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship,
make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

This continue in verse 5 speaks of his 42 Month Rule sister.

Now, John did use AND 1200 plus times, because he was being shown The Book of Revelation, written by God and given to Jesus to "SHOW" his servant John. Jesus did this with Visions and Utterings from Angels, in a very fast sequence, thus many do not think John wrote this (he did) because he used AND, AND, AND, AND so many times. So, John was shown visions and told things to write by Angels and Jesus.

Now I can explain the exact chronology of the book of Revelation. Everything, and I do indeed mean EVERYTHING is centered around the 1260, first given unto Daniel the Prophet in Dan. 12., who was also told about the 1290 and 1335, he however did not know what any of the three meant. All three are a set number of days until Jesus' (we now know or I do) Second Coming ENDS ALL OF THESE WONDERS Daniel was shown in Dan. 11:36-45. We all know the 1260 is the Anti-Christ, we also know he rules for 1260 days, hence his end will come via Jesus' return, of course, but most go into the weeds on the 1290 and 1335 by OVERTHINKING things. They are also events that happen 1290 and 1335 days before Jesus' Second Coming, thus they come before the 1260's Anti-Christ conquering. The 1335 (Two-witnesses) Blessing comes first, followed by the False Prophet forbidding those who repented via the Two-witnesses from worshiping Jesus Christ in the Temple (he TAKES AWAY the Sacrifice which is Jesus !! I do not know why people can not see this......I didn't know for 30 years lol) and he then places the Image (AoD) of the E.U. President (soon to be Beast)up in the temple to mock those Jews who have accepted Christ Jesus. Rev. 13 tells us the 2nd Beat places the IMAGE, if we read it. So, who is the False Prophet as per his title? A Jewish High Priest just like Jason (real name Yeshua) did under Antiochus Epiphanes, he bribed Antiochus to be named the High Priest having his Pious High Priest brother Onias III killed, then he welcomed Antiochus in the temple to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus on the Altar of God !! He then MANDATED that all Jews become Hellenized (take on the Greek culture/serve their gods) and this led to the infamous Maccabean Revolt. That was an EXACT PICTURE of the coming end times, a Greek born man who rules the E.U. will name a Jewish High Priest his right hand man on all things religion.

Reread Rev. 12 how many days does the Dragon chase Israel (the Woman) ? Fir 1260 days, then Satan will be bound in the Bottomless Pit. He uses the Anti-Christ Army top chase her, of course. Now, knowing this, why would Rev. 13 not cover the exact same 42 months (1260 days) ? The Anti-Christ rules for 1260 days. In Rev. 17 the Harlot is Judged staring with God's Wrath and she is killed off by the east and his Kings who rule for how long? 1260 days or ONE HOUR (short time). In Rev. 18 we see the WHOLE WORLD (Babylon) being Judged by God for 1260 days which is how long His Wrath lasts. In verse 2 we are told Devils now inhabit Babylon, well of course that is Satan (Rev. 12) being cast down to earth and Apollyon and his demon hordes being released from the Bottomless Pit (Rev. 9) so of course Babylon (this evil world) is the inhabitation of devils. We see in Rev. 18:4 God tells his people (Israel see Rev. 7 Israel flees Judea) to come out of her (Babylon/World) lest she receive of her plagues. In verses 8 and 10 we are told her plagues will come in ONE DAY and also in ONE HOUR, that is because both add up to 42 months, the Day of the Lord lasts 42 months, and as Rev. 17:12 shows us the Kings rule ONE HOUR with the Beast who we know rules for 42 months so ONE HOUR = 42 months. It's God lingo, He wrote this book and gave it tom his son Jesus to give to John.


Basically Rev. 2 & 3 is the Church Age, Rev. 4:1 is the HEREAFTER (70th week on) but Rev. 4, 5, 6 and 7 are JUST BEFORE the 1260 Middle of the Week event. In Rev. 4 and 5 Jesus is with the Raptured Church in Heaven before he opens the Seals. In Rev. 6 he opens the Seals which are not Judgments but Prophetic Utterances of the Judgments which wil fall as soon as Seal #7 is opened OVER IN Rev. 8, so Rev. 6 also happens JUST BEFORE the 1260 middle of the week events start. The Seals are Jesus FORETELLING what God's Wrath (Seal 6) will bring AND what the Anti-Christs 42 month rule as a Tyrant will bring via Seals numbered 1-5. He will 1.) Conquer for 42 months 2.) Bring Wars for 42 months 3.) Which bring Famine for 42 months 4.) His rule will thus bring 42 months of Sickness, Death and the Grave. 5.) He will Martyr the Gentile Saints who give their lives unto Christ after the Pre Trib Rapture. He can't get at the Jews who repent however !!

Then finally you get the Rev. 7 Jews, the 144,000 (code for 5 million Jews who repent) Jews who repent JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord like both Zech. 13:8-9, 14:1 and Malachi 4:5 says. This happens at te 1290, you see the Jews have 30 days to flee Judea since the 1290 IS NOT the Anti-Christ as most always assumed, it is the False Prophet who is being ordered from afar what to do, seeing as Israel will join the European Union, that is the Agreement (Covenant) she enters into in Dan. 9:27 with the E..U President who will become the Beast when he conquers them as he reneges on his Agreements.

Everything AFTER Rev. 7 is the 1260 Events, BUT many chapters or not in order, the cover the exact same TIMELINE, the 42 months we see that starts the 1260. Rev. 8, 9 and 16 are in order, that is the Judgments of God in a linear cycle, we should add in Rev. 15 with 16, they actually should be together, Rev. 15 is simply the Angels readying the 7 Vial, meanwhile in Rev. 8 we see the Angels readying the 7 Trumps and it is a PART of Rev. 8. So, 15 and 16 should go together in reallity, there were no chapter breaks until the KJV placed them there.

Then we get the Parenthetical Chapters.

Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 ALL START with the Rev. 8 Trumpets and run for 42 months. (see how the 1260 comes into play ? It was designed by God for that very reason). Rev. 11 is the oddball, the Two-witnesses show up 1335 days BEFORE Jesus' Second Coming so it starts 75 days before the 1260 middle of the week events start. Thus we know by using math, they must also DIE 75 days before the Beast DIES, and they do die BEFORE the Beast dies right? At the 2nd Woe, while the Beast will die at the 7th Vial (3rd Woe). Even though it starts 75 days before the 1260 it will end via Jesus' Victory because we are told what the 3rd Woe the Two-witnesses pray down will eventually lead to, VICTORY b y Jesus. We actually SEE that victory in Rev. 16:19 however. That is why it is a Parenthetical Chapter.

Rev. 14 and 19 both cover the full 7 Years, we see the Bride in Rev. 19 when she first comes to Heaven (BEFORE Rev. 4, 5 and 7 because they already have in White Robes in Rev. 4 and 5) before they get their White Robes. In Rev. 14 that is the Harvest Chapter, so we see the 144,000 (5 million Jews) awaiting Jesus (the Wheat) AND we see the wicked grapes Harvested into the Wine-press of God's wrath in verses 17-20 so in order to show the Church being Harvested we are shown that in a sorta FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture where Jesus from "upon a cloud" Harvests or reaps the Church. Thus my notion that Rev. 14 and 19 both covers the full 7 years of the 70th week. Rev. 20-22 is self explanatory.

 

[ewq1938]

Here is how it is broken down, but mentioned in two different sections.

That's wrong. Explain to us how a time period of 3.5 years BEFORE a war in heaven is the same period of time AFTER the war in heaven is over and how a third period even further past the war's completion is the same period.

 

[Timtofly]

You don’t “PUT on the spirit”.
Man is not a “spirit”. Man “HAS a spirit”.
Man is a mortal flesh and blood (which means subject to and must die).
Man shall “PUT on” an immortal body. (Not subject to death, nor will die).

1 Cor 15:
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victo[24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Eph 4:
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Paradise IS WHERE “uncorrupted” souls ARE (with the Tree of Life).
* First the Tree of Life was in the Garden of Eden. <-> Paradise
* Then in the Comfort Side of Hell. <-> Paradise
* Now in Heaven. <-> Paradise
* WHEN the Earth is made Anew, Again shall be ON Earth <-> Paradise

ALL Human BODY’S shall Die...MUST Die...God requires it.
The Life of the Body is it’s BLOOD.
The Life of the soul is Gods Breath.
The Life of a mans Natural spirit is the mans truth in his Heart.
The Life of a mans Quickened born again spirit IS Gods Truth in the mans Heart.

Body’s die, decay, rot, return to the dust of the earth.
All souls depart from a dying body.
Saved souls go to Heaven/Paradise/with the Tree of Life.
Unsaved souls go to Hell, separated from God, comfort and pleasantness.
Souls in Heaven or Hell, are living, alert, waiting for Judgement day.

Immortality is that spirit of man that Adam's flesh is dead to. The spirit is with God, until that moment immortality is put on.

Adam lost his spirit, and no one born of Adam has regained that spirit, unless the two olive trees and two candlesticks have their spirit returned to then. The spirit is what Jesus demonstrated on the mount of Transfiguration.

"his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light."

The spirit is put on like a robe of white. That is symbolic of a bright light, as bright as the stars. Obviously humanity in their sinful state cannot put on this robe of white and walk around earth with non believers. Neither can the sons of God created on the 6th day. The sons of God had to leave earth before the Flood, just like the church leaves earth before the tribulation and is glorified. A glorified church will not be on the earth during the Millennium, just like the sons of God were not on earth after the Flood.

Only after the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven will the church and sons of God return to earth. You are only body and soul. Your soul must shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The soul will put on God's permanent incorruptible physical body, and a robe of white, the spirit, that completes us as sons of God. Literally lights as bright as the stars. The angels are the lights of the firmament. The sons of God were lights on earth. That is why Jesus was transfigured to show us what the image of God actually is. God is light. The sons of God in God's image are lights foremost, with permanent physical bodies underneath. I guess no one believes Jesus showed us what we should be. 1 John 3:2

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

If we are going to be like him, we will shine as the sun, like He did. Putting on immortality is putting on the spirit, which allows us to shine like stars. We don't hide our spirit under our skin, but shine like stars as we were created to be. Being divine is being like God, a light.

Paul was contrasting mortal, being death, with immortal, of God, with life. But in image form, it is more than life, it is the light of the world.

Place that thought in Genesis 6. Those offspring of the sons of God, bright lights, each generation of offspring, kept getting darker and darker, loosing the light. When God said His Spirit would not always strive with man's, light was how they communicated, light to light. But sin of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, was hindering that communication.

Also when Adam and Eve found themselves dead, they were naked. No longer having a spirit, that light of communication with God, hid themselves. It was pretty easy as they no longer shone like stars, but blended in with creation. God did not return their spirit to them, instead He killed an animal and made them clothes of earth to put on.

 

[Timtofly]

Here is how it is broken down, but mentioned in two different sections. Then the persecution of the woman continues in the first part of Revelation 3.

The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon​

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

The Woman Persecuted​

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time,15 So the dragon spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Yes, the woman was chased by the dragon into the wilderness in chapter 12 is the same period the saints are overcome. Being symbolic, overcome is not destroyed. They no longer could have an effective testimony. The woman would portray those sheep brought out of all nations in Matthew 25:31. They would be protected and safe during those 42 months. The same 42 months the outer court of the temple is trampled in Revelation 11:2.

It is also the same period as the 2 witnesses. As all others were kept in safety, God only has 2 humans being a thorn in the works of all these kingdoms.

Revelation 15 shows a sea of glass. This would be the same location called the wilderness in chapter 12. Jesus and the 144k are on mount zion. That being in the vicinity of the GWT seen both in the firmament and on earth. Heaven is my throne, and earth the footstool (the pedestal or base). It is there now where it has always been. Hidden in spiritual blindness. That blindness will be removed at the 6th Seal.

Many times the question is, why so many different groups here and there. The reasoning is that there are only two groups. That is just not the case, because Scripture especially in Revelation describes more than 2 groups and up to 4 or 5. Not that some are more saved than others. All are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. God addresses these groups differently. We can still say Jew and Gentile and understand they both are redeemed, so not sure why all the fuss when John sees different groups. Even in the Gospels we see some represented as sheep, some as wheat, or many other parable like symbols. Lumping them altogether as one is not being helpful when there are reasonable explanations. These groupings are not all even part of the church.

After Adam's flesh is brought to an end by the time the 7th Trumpet stops, the group known as lost or unsaved will cease to exist period. So that group as being only half of the definition some claim, is pointless to use them in any part of the time post the 7th Trumpet. That defining attribute is gone forever. If they are mentioned they are the dead. But the dead are no longer on earth amoung the living. It is no longer correct to call them lost or unsaved, as they are now literally the dead, and not just figuratively the dead. Technically we are all dead when in Adam's flesh. Even born of the second birth does not change us out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Only the first resurrection changes us from death to life. From corruption to incorruption.

Back to the different groups in Revelation. The first separation is the 144k. They are a subgroup of the woman in Revelation 12. Since Israel is the woman, they are foremost 144k Israelites. They don't represent the woman, they are a separate group. This woman being chased by the dragon represents those sheep found in Matthew 25:31. Since Revelation 12 is symbolic perhaps at one point these sheep are driven out of Jerusalem, as they were brought to Jerusalem to stand before Jesus, and no where is it recorded where they go, other than in these verses, or Revelation 15, after being chased by Satan with a flood of water. Perhaps symbolic of the time of the Flood. God destroyed all humans at the Flood. Satan mimics that judgment sitting on that glorious throne as God and attempts to drown these sheep like God drowned the wicked in Noah's Day.

Revelation 15:2

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

This is the place of safety described about for the woman in chapter 12. These people are the sheep, the offspring of Israel. They are not the group overcome. The group overcome would be the 144k. Revelation 14:1-3

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth."

The 144k on mount zion with Jesus. The sheep, represented by the woman fleeing, on eagles wings to the sea of glass. Two groups, two places, both redeemed, both chosen and sealed for a purpose. That being the firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom. The other group not mentioned, because John was not allowed to pass on that information which would be found in the 7 Thunders:

3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

This group was mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 13: the wheat harvested while the tares were thrown into the fire. Even in the Tribulation, humanity is not set aside while Israel is being dealt with, John is just not allowed to tell us about this group. The last group are those who were not the church, not the 144k, not of Israel, nor even gathered in the wheat harvest. These souls are the only reason that Satan is given the throne for 42 months. These are they who are beheaded instead of receiving the mark. And you will notice these are the only ones without a physical body until after Armageddon. The 144k, the sheep, and the wheat are never said to suffer physical death, but are changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh nonetheless. These beheaded souls are the only ones judged in Revelation 20:4. All the rest of the firstfruits were judged by God and sealed. Being sealed is more than just protected. The 144k had to be given permanent incorruptible physical bodies, or they would have to stand in judgment and removed from Adam's dead flesh after they had already been seving God faithfully. Perhaps overcome signifies they did change at that point. We are not told the specifics, but they would not be those close disciples as implied in Revelation 14, if they were still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The point is, the 144k were already safe and no longer lost in Revelation 14. Those beheaded did physically die, obviously that happened when their head was removed. They are the only group that literally were souls waiting for the first resurrection, that permanent incorruptible physical body from God, to live and reign with Christ.

The last two people mentioned are the two witnesses. They are physically killed, but notice that their same body came to life. No verse states they were changed from corruptible to incorruptible. I think they were already changed before this 42 month ministry. They could not die, until God willed that they die. Their resurrection was the last witness that those about to die at Armageddon would see, but would never experience, as God driving home a point, that their utter rejection of God caused them to miss out on God's everlasting life. They would see what those religious leaders saw when Lazarus came out of his grave. That fear and dread in their hearts, that nothing they could do would ever allow them that same experience. God vindicated in their hearts the result of rejecting Him. These people having been given many opportunities, but just kept hardening their hearts to the Gospel.

 

[Truth7t7]

That's not possible.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This happens BEFORE the war in heaven and satan being cast out of heaven.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This happens AFTER the war in heaven and satan being cast out of heaven.

The next 3.5 year period is AFTER this, in the war he starts against Christians known as the GT.

Wrong

The 3.5 year teachings are all seen as "Parallel" times

When the future (Man Of Sin/The Beast) is revealed to the world, the woman flees to the wilderness of Bashan, Gilead, Carmel, in Israel

At this same time the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11 stand before the (Man Of Sin/The Beast)

Conclusion: the 1260 day, 42 months,or 3.5 years are all the same time frame in "Parallel" teachings

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Wrong

The 3.5 year teachings are all seen as "Parallel" times

When the future (Man Of Sin/The Beast) is revealed to the world, the woman flees to the wilderness of Bashan, Gilead, Carmel, in Israel

At this same time the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation chapter 11 stand before the (Man Of Sin/The Beast)

Conclusion: the 1260 day, 42 months,or 3.5 years are all the same time frame in "Parallel" teachings

Yes, but add the "time, times and half a time" (3.5 years). Time is one year, times is two years, and half a time is half a year totaling 3.5 years.

Except the 42 months of Rev. 13 is the second 3.5 years totally 7 years.

There is a paradigm in Daniel 9 which calls the last 7 years, a week. And the mid point is the middle of the week, or in the midst of the week. It is the same layout as the future Great Tribulation, except Daniel 9 is talking about the second Jewish revolt from 66 AD to 73 AD, and the midpoint is 70 AD when they defiled the temple by destroying it. The future 7 year period also highlights the Jews when their partial blindness will be removed and they will be saved before the second coming.

The first Jewish Revolt, the Maccabeen War, 67 BC to 60 BC was prophesied in Daniel 8 as the 2,300 evenings and mornings meaning actual days (like creation week). It comes down to 6.3 years, and also in the middle of that revolt the temple was defiled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes by sacrificing a pig on the altar in honor of Zeus. He died in 64 BC which must mean he died shortly after defiling the temple.

 

[ScottA]

@stunnedbygrace
@marks

From God's perspective there is but one resurrection, and only from the world's perspective are there two.

All are raised up with Christ, who rose only once. Yet it is explained that the dead (those before salvation came) proceed those who are actually born [again] of the spirit of God first though they "were" crucified and raised up with Christ also. Which is to say that "we who are alive and remain" as Paul said, enter eternity first (being first made alive), but are last to come into the world. Therefore Christ said, "But many who are first will be last, and the last first." Which He said only referring to when each would leave the world as opposed to entering the kingdom, as it is otherwise only one event.

 

[ewq1938]

Wrong

The 3.5 year teachings are all seen as "Parallel" times

I have already proven that is false and NO ONE has even confronted the evidence given.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, but add the "time, times and half a time" (3.5 years). Time is one year, times is two years, and half a time is half a year totaling 3.5 years.

Except the 42 months of Rev. 13 is the second 3.5 years totally 7 years.

There is a paradigm in Daniel 9 which calls the last 7 years, a week. And the mid point is the middle of the week, or in the midst of the week. It is the same layout as the future Great Tribulation, except Daniel 9 is talking about the second Jewish revolt from 66 AD to 73 AD, and the midpoint is 70 AD when they defiled the temple by destroying it. The future 7 year period also highlights the Jews when their partial blindness will be removed and they will be saved before the second coming.

The first Jewish Revolt, the Maccabeen War, 67 BC to 60 BC was prophesied in Daniel 8 as the 2,300 evenings and mornings meaning actual days (like creation week). It comes down to 6.3 years, and also in the middle of that revolt the temple was defiled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes by sacrificing a pig on the altar in honor of Zeus. He died in 64 BC which must mean he died shortly after defiling the temple.

You present "standard" reformed preterist eschatology in Daniel's 70th week being fulfilled in 167 BC Antiochus Epiphanies

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained "Future"?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building.

The 70th literal week will see (The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

I have already proven that is false and NO ONE has even confronted the evidence given.

You have proven noting as you claim, the future Great Tribulation is 3.5 years long and will start when the (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) is revealed to the world

Revelation 12:6 The 1260 days of the woman, and Revelation 11:3 the two witnesses, and Revelation 13:5 and the 42 months of (The Beast) are all "Parallel" times totaling 3.5 years, they aren't chronological as you believe and teach

We Disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[ewq1938]

You continue to avoid the evidence I provided which proves you wrong.

You have proven noting as you claim, the future Great Tribulation is 3.5 years long and will start when the (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) is revealed to the world

Revelation 12:6 The 1260 days of the woman, and Revelation 11:3 the two witnesses, and Revelation 13:5 and the 42 months of (The Beast) are all "Parallel" times totaling 3.5 years, they aren't chronological as you believe and teach

We Disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

First and Second Resurrections are designating 2 resurrections of course, but only two, so if these are two instances of resurrection, we already run into problems because Jesus rose, the two witnesses will arise, various others, and they could be debated, but Jesus Himself, He is the firstfruits, so it's not just a certain resurrection day, it includes Him.

The second resurrection is substantially different from the first, in that John wrote, "I saw the dead . . ." The first resurrection, these lived and reigned with Christ, they are alive, the second are still dead.

I think these aren't simply consecutive resurrections, but are two kinds of resurrection, the Righteous unto life, and the unrighteous unto judgment and eternal death.

So then whether some be raised between Jesus and these martyrs, I don't see that being any issue. It seems to me that the 2 witnesses will have been raised. It may be that those who arose when Jesus died were also transformed into glory. Whether there be the dead and living in Christ to be raised and transformed would include those in their time, same as the OT saints, raised as will be Daniel "on the last day", the 1335th day.

As a pre-tribber, I'm a little different from the classic Calvary Chapel view, but this would be mainstream thinking on this question. And I happen to think it's valid myself, so I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have for me.

Much love!

Christ resurrected, he was the first, but concerning the Church, the First Resurrection takes place at His Second Coming. (1 Cor. 15:23). The Second resurrection involves those who died after the First Resurrection, during the Great Tribulation and throughout the the Millennial Kingdom. This resurrection takes place after the Great White Throne (final) Judgment.
The key point you brought up is the Two Witnesses. Everyone wonders about them. But they die and come back to life. So it is likely that they are tied to the First Resurrection. We all go when they do - makes sense to me. Otherwise there would be three. So then a resurrection on day 1260. Then the Seven Bowls of God's wrath are released for the remaining people of the earth. Desolation happens to the world from 1260 -1290. Then "Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days". He makes it into the MK.

 

[ewq1938]

The Second resurrection involves those who died after the First Resurrection, during the Great Tribulation and throughout the the Millennial Kingdom.

The second resurrection includes all unsaved people who died since man was first created.

 

[Truth7t7]

Christ resurrected, he was the first, but concerning the Church, the First Resurrection takes place at His Second Coming. (1 Cor. 15:23). The Second resurrection involves those who died after the First Resurrection, during the Great Tribulation and throughout the the Millennial Kingdom. This resurrection takes place after the Great White Throne (final) Judgment.
The key point you brought up is the Two Witnesses. Everyone wonders about them. But they die and come back to life. So it is likely that they are tied to the First Resurrection. We all go when they do - makes sense to me. Otherwise there would be three. So then a resurrection on day 1260. Then the Seven Bowls of God's wrath are released for the remaining people of the earth. Desolation happens to the world from 1260 -1290. Then "Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days". He makes it into the MK.

Your claim is false, there is no time on earth beyond the second coming and resurrection as you suggest a great tribulation and millennial kingdom on this earth follows "False"

The resurrection seen below takes place on "The Last Day" just as Jesus taught in John 6:39-40 below

"Then Cometh The End"

1 Corinthians 15:23-24KJV
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

"I Will Raise Him Up At The Last Day"

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[ewq1938]

"Then Cometh The End"

1 Corinthians 15:23-24KJV
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

A lot of things happening after the end in that verse which disputes the point you try to make. Rev 2 also speaks of all the things that take place after "the end" including a rule over the nations. It also destroys the theory that the unsaved are resurrected at the same time as the saved.

 

[Truth7t7]

A lot of things happening after the end in that verse which disputes the point you try to make. Rev 2 also speaks of all the things that take place after "the end" including a rule over the nations. It also destroys the theory that the unsaved are resurrected at the same time as the saved.

There Isn't Anything Happening "After" The End, Your Claims Are "False"!

"Then Cometh The End" is "The End" what part of the English language don't you understand, your claims are a "Joke"!

You have a pre-determined agenda in seeing a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, a fairy tale dream that will never take place!

"Then Cometh The End"

1 Corinthians 15:23-24KJV
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

"I Will Raise Him Up At The Last Day"

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.