A polite question for pretribbers

[Ezra]

Yay, so good to know someone sees the difference between God's wrath and GT (Satan's persecution). I think today I'm going to see how many times we are warned in scripture,, to be prepared!

ill be waiting but i am more than familiar with both


Revelation 6 the great tribulation has started .satan has not been released yet
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 4

King James Version

​

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

john is being showed the things to come no place is the Church but if you insist to show me different have at it. one sim[ly can not go through the great tribulation and it not affect them . besides the antichrist can not come till the Church is took out

2 Thessalonians 2

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

this happens after the church is called out before the great tribulation.

yes the devil is in the background BUT GOD is calling shots and we will experience tribulation distress trails but not the great tribulation

 

[Nancy]

ill be waiting but i am more than familiar with both


Revelation 6 the great tribulation has started .satan has not been released yet
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 4​

​

King James Version​

​

​

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

john is being showed the things to come no place is the Church but if you insist to show me different have at it. one sim[ly can not go through the great tribulation and it not affect them . besides the antichrist can not come till the Church is took out

2 Thessalonians 2

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

this happens after the church is called out before the great tribulation.

yes the devil is in the background BUT GOD is calling shots and we will experience tribulation distress trails but not the great tribulation

In the Letters to the Seven Churches in the book of Revelations, Jesus calls each of the churches to endure until his return. Jesus uses words like “conquer”, “overcome”, and “holding fast”. Each of these terms pretty much mean "endurance". Endurance for what?? I would say persecution and satanic attacks against our lives.

2 Thess. 2:1,3
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, brothers,
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

In Matthew 24:21, Jesus referred to the middle of the 71/2 years Daniel’s 70th week of years as “the great tribulation”. My belief is that this is referring to Jews only. And, yes, I do believe many Jews will be going through the "Great Tribulation" and if they repent, they will be sealed with God's protection. JMO.


Deuteronomy 4:27–30 I believe is speaking of the Jews who will be left behind. When John, in Revelation is caught up in the third heaven in Chapter 4 of Rev. There is no "church" mentioned that I can see after Chapter 4.

Although there is support for all three positions, I am a mid tribber.

We have not escaped Satan's persecution until this day and his persecution is getting worse and worse as he wears down the saints. My belief is that when Satan puts himself and makes himself God, that is when all hell will break loose, this is where I see the saints being raptured before Gods wrath is poured out.

Revelation 2:10
"Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Colossians 1:23
"If indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister."

Hebrews 3:14
"For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end."

I'm sure you "know" more about all three, post/mid/pre than I do, I have changed my stance on this several times over the years. Either way, we should be built up in the faith big time.

No matter what type of tribulation theory you believe, endurance in faith until Christ returns is required. So keep the faith.

I'm not unteachable brother Ezra, we all fall somewhere between the views. And as I have said, I HAVE changed my views on this already a couple of times.
God bless you brother.

 

[Ezra]

I'm not unteachable brother Ezra, we all fall somewhere between the views. And as I have said, I HAVE changed my views on this already a couple of times.
God bless you brother.

i am not teaching although i will be tonight in rev 11 it gets rather interesting from this point . even though i am pre trib due to the part i fail to see how God would put us through the great trib. i dont know when Christ will return there are similarities in the old test compared to the new. to fully understand it one would have to bisect Daniel Jerimiah and Ezekiel . many things as i study this out. makes me stop and scratch my head.

No matter what type of tribulation theory you believe, endurance in faith until Christ returns is required. So keep the faith.

and this is the key the seven churches was a interesting study . i cant imagine getting a letter from Christ saying but thou art dead

i seldom in forums discuss the Book of rev.. when i see the words pre tribber i rise to the occasion.


here is some facts i just discussed with the carpenter that did some work at the Church. i was talking future projects he replied material is getting high and its not going to come down. the American people have got use to paying high prices,

my remark are we are on the horse riding in a direction that's not good,, we can yell whoa pull back the bridle bit. end time events are making progress in a way we never seen before . a preacher man said good 25 years ago were going to see things we never saw before.

when we saw its ok to murder babies ( there not a fetus) we put in trans in gov offices and a president signs the marriage freedom bill. saying something love let live.

we condone evil in fact we no longer even fletch when we read of a murder . Church attendance is down the church i pastor is the one i got saved in and took the call to preach. over a period of 20 years it has had fights .leadership that did not belong in the pulpit. they failed to pay bills. it closed we reopened it 2 years ago and you would not believe the state red tape and irs red tape just to say its a church .

its hard get folks interested we are headed down the road of end times. even though were not fully in it much more is to come. Christ said these are the beginning of sorrows . but we are told when we see these things coming look up your redemption draweth nigh .


folks best be looking to and looking up .its going catch a lot of folks with there pants down. that can be taken to the bank .

enjoyed our discussion. lets let the Lord leads us all to what we need to be.

 

[Ezra]

We have not escaped Satan's persecution until this day and his persecution is getting worse and worse as he wears down the saints. My belief is that when Satan puts himself and makes himself God, that is when all hell will break loose, this is where I see the saints being raptured before Gods wrath is poured out.i dont think you very far off . its noit a matter of if. its facts its timing we dont know %100 pre trib mid trib or after trib

 

[Ezra]

here's the good news

Corinthians 2:9

New King James Version

​

9 But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

 

[Nancy]

here's the good news

Corinthians 2:9​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

9 But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

News doesn't get better than that, aside from seeing Him face to face!

 

[ewq1938]

awww thus saith

ewq1938 so we have 7 more years of trib after the 7th trumpet ? hope you survive​

The Gt is 3.5 years total, not 7 and not 7 after the Return.

 

[Nancy]

i am not teaching although i will be tonight in rev 11 it gets rather interesting from this point . even though i am pre trib due to the part i fail to see how God would put us through the great trib. i dont know when Christ will return there are similarities in the old test compared to the new. to fully understand it one would have to bisect Daniel Jerimiah and Ezekiel . many things as i study this out. makes me stop and scratch my head.




and this is the key the seven churches was a interesting study . i cant imagine getting a letter from Christ saying but thou art dead

i seldom in forums discuss the Book of rev.. when i see the words pre tribber i rise to the occasion.


here is some facts i just discussed with the carpenter that did some work at the Church. i was talking future projects he replied material is getting high and its not going to come down. the American people have got use to paying high prices,

my remark are we are on the horse riding in a direction that's not good,, we can yell whoa pull back the bridle bit. end time events are making progress in a way we never seen before . a preacher man said good 25 years ago were going to see things we never saw before.

when we saw its ok to murder babies ( there not a fetus) we put in trans in gov offices and a president signs the marriage freedom bill. saying something love let live.

we condone evil in fact we no longer even fletch when we read of a murder . Church attendance is down the church i pastor is the one i got saved in and took the call to preach. over a period of 20 years it has had fights .leadership that did not belong in the pulpit. they failed to pay bills. it closed we reopened it 2 years ago and you would not believe the state red tape and irs red tape just to say its a church .

its hard get folks interested we are headed down the road of end times. even though were not fully in it much more is to come. Christ said these are the beginning of sorrows . but we are told when we see these things coming look up your redemption draweth nigh .


folks best be looking to and looking up .its going catch a lot of folks with there pants down. that can be taken to the bank .

enjoyed our discussion. lets let the Lord leads us all to what we need to be.

...God bless your teaching tonight, all church's (I believe) should be teaching on these things but, most I've been to barely touch on it. Wish I could attend!

 

[Ezra]

Wish I could attend!

we would love to have you. iam in town doniphan mo we welcome all . you can teach just study it and relay what you studied out. in a manner of understanding

 

[Ezra]

The Gt is 3.5 years total, not 7 and not 7 after the Return.

you keep holding to that. maybe you will convince your self

 

[Nancy]

we would love to have you. iam in town doniphan mo we welcome all . you can teach just study it and relay what you studied out. in a manner of understanding

I'm too far, yes, I can study it more. Haven't in a while, don't want to confuse myself further, haha ...God is not one of confusion! Lord give clarity, amen.

 

[Ezra]

I'm too far, yes, I can study it more. Haven't in a while, don't want to confuse myself further, haha ...God is not one of confusion! Lord give clarity, amen.

its a tough study i use about 3 or 4 sources i compare with. most give scripture. i will share something saturday with you .that i think will fall in with your belief . what part the state you in doniphan is a town . live out in the country any enjoy our discussion. the church i pastor the wife and i clean it and see to any upkeeps.

 

[ewq1938]

you keep holding to that. maybe you will convince your self

That makes no sense. If I hold it, then I believe it, thus no convincing is needed. Please think things through before you post them publicly.

The GT is 42 months, according to Rev 13. Any 7 year concept is foreign to the text and is introduced artificially by people due to their own doctrinal bias (Pre-trib).

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

 

[Ezra]

CHAPTER 11 last 3 1/2 years. the reason it makes no sense.

is your are the only one correct thus everyone else out side your circle is wrong

 

[No Pre-TB]

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

If it’s dissolved at his return, how does this happen?

he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

How do we rule the nations at the end if the earth is dissolved?

 

[Ezra]

If it’s dissolved at his return, how does this happen?

he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

How do we rule the nations at the end if the earth is dissolved?

new heaven and new earth

Revelation 21

New King James Version

​

All Things Made New​

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


we dont rule till he makes things new some will say the earth will never be destroyed ..one thing when the fire comes it will be purified

 

[Truth7t7]

If it’s dissolved at his return, how does this happen?

he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

How do we rule the nations at the end if the earth is dissolved?

The scripture is speaking of "THE END"

The Nation's of those who are saved will be in the Eternal Kingdom

Revelation 2:26-27KJV
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelations 21:23-26KJV
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The scripture is speaking of "THE END"

The Nation's of those who are saved will be in the Eternal Kingdom

Revelation 2:26-27KJV
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelations 21:23-26KJV
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

Right. If you keep his works until the end comes, when he dissolves things, he gives power over the nations. Meaning, we are here afterwards

 

[Truth7t7]

Right. If you keep his works until the end comes, when he dissolves things, he gives power over the nations. Meaning, we are here afterwards

The Heavens And Earth Are "Dissolved" At The Lord's Return, It Will The New Creation In The New Heaven, Earth , Jerusalem

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Truth7t7]

new heaven and new earth

Revelation 21​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

All Things Made New​

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


we dont rule till he makes things new some will say the earth will never be destroyed ..one thing when the fire comes it will be purified

This earth will be dissolved by fire, it will be a completely new creation

Jesus Is The Lord