A polite question for pretribbers

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stunnedbygrace

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@stunnedbygrace
@marks

From God's perspective there is but one resurrection, and only from the world's perspective are there two.

All are raised up with Christ, who rose only once. Yet it is explained that the dead (those before salvation came) proceed those who are actually born [again] of the spirit of God first though they "were" crucified and raised up with Christ also. Which is to say that "we who are alive and remain" as Paul said, enter eternity first (being first made alive), but are last to come into the world. Therefore Christ said, "But many who are first will be last, and the last first." Which He said only referring to when each would leave the world as opposed to entering the kingdom, as it is otherwise only one event.
I don’t see that.
 

ScottA

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I don’t see that.
That would define your perspective as being worldly where times and people come and go in their own time and order--as Paul said, "but each one in his own order." To the contrary, God (and the events of God, and His perspective) "is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

The point being, that unless we have "a renewing of our mind" as Paul also indicated, we don't see the events as being the same events rightfully being defined differently...as the world is different than the kingdom. Just as we "were" crucified with Christ, it is only from the world's perspective that all worldly events occur in different times. That is the illusion of time as also being "created" rather than what is actually true and real with God.
 

ewq1938

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There Isn't Anything Happening "After" The End, Your Claims Are "False"!


You are wrong.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.


Rev 2:27 And he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.
 

Truth7t7

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You are wrong.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.


Rev 2:27 And he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.
There is no earth to rule on, its dissolved by the Lord's fire at his return in final judgement, as you have been shown several times (The End)

"Then Cometh The End" is "The End" what part of the English language don't you understand, your claims are a "Joke"

You have a pre-determined agenda in seeing a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, a fairy tale dream that will never take place

"Then Cometh The End"

1 Corinthians 15:23-24KJV
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

"I Will Raise Him Up At The Last Day"

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 

ewq1938

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There is no earth to rule on, its dissolved by the Lord's fire at his return in final judgement, as you have been shown several times (The End)


This is just as wrong as the false claim you made that nothing happens after "the end". The Earth is still here after the second coming. You are confusing the time the old Earth is replaced by the New one, which happens at the start of the eternal age, Rev 21.
 

Truth7t7

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This is just as wrong as the false claim you made that nothing happens after "the end". The Earth is still here after the second coming. You are confusing the time the old Earth is replaced by the New one, which happens at the start of the eternal age, Rev 21.
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

Truth7t7

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BLAH BLAH BLAH, standard copy and paste avoidance to not confront that you have been proven wrong.
God's words that you wilfully ignore, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End) you have clearly been shown
 

ewq1938

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God's words that you wilfully ignore, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End) you have clearly been shown


I've proven that wrong and you just avoided it with copy and paste. That is a clear sign you cannot answer or confront what I have posted.
 

Bible Highlighter

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I’m only interested in the answer a pretribber would give me. Those are the only answers I will be listening to or reading. (That doesn’t mean you can’t post another boxing match, just that I won’t read it. Lol) I’ve tried to ask the question in a thread or two but I guess it’s just gotten lost in the brouhaha.

So my question, what I want to hear you lay out for me, is how you fit into your eschatological framework, one particular passage. I’m looking for something I may not have considered in my brain regarding it. I won’t be arguing with you, I just really want to hear what you have to say about it.

Okay, so it says in Revelation that those who come out of the tribulation who did not receive the mark of the beast will be part of the first resurrection. How do you fit that verse into your framework? I’ll bold the parts that I can’t fit into pretrib in my brain.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Thank you, by the way, for giving me any thoughts about it I may not have seen.
Revelation 20 is talking within the framework of the physical flesh and blood body resurrections and not a spiritual body resurrection.
Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body (See: 1 Corinthians 15:44).

The two flesh and blood resurrections are told to us by Jesus.

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

The 1st resurrection mentioned in Revelation is in two phases.
The first phase of the 1st resurrection is at the beginning of the Millennium (Which is the rising of the saints).
The second phase of the 1st resurrection is after the Millennium (Which is the second part of the rising of the saints).

The second resurrection is for the damned and that takes place at the Judgment after the Millennium.

The Rapture is a spiritual resurrection. The Rapture is not a flesh and blood bodily resurrection. Faithful believers who are raptured will become like angels (Which will be temporary) until New Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven and lands on the New Earth whereby they will receive their new flesh and blood bodies. For the last shall be first, and the first shall be last (Matthew 20:16).

Meaning, those saints who were beheaded for Christ in the Tribulation period will be resurrected with a flesh and blood body to live first (living in the Millennium with Christ reigning).

The saints who were first (or before the Tribulation and taken up in the Rapture) will be resurrected with a flesh and blood body last on the New Earth after the Millennium.

The first shall be last and the last shall be first.

You can check out my End Times Chronology here if you are interested.


Side Note:

In Mark 12:

Jesus alludes to the two different types of resurrections (i.e. one being spiritual one, and the other one being a physical flesh and blood one).

Spiritual body resurrection in being like that of the angels:

23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife. 24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.” (Mark 12:23-25).

Flesh and blood body resurrection:

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.” (Mark 12:26-27).
 
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ewq1938

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The Rapture is a spiritual resurrection. The Rapture is not a flesh and blood bodily resurrection.


The rapture is not a resurrection at all. The rapture just moves living people from one place to another.
 

Bible Highlighter

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The rapture is not a resurrection at all. The rapture just moves living people from one place to another.

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 (speaking of the Rapture) says,

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”​

Both verse 51, and 52 talks about how we shall be changed.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
So this is why we need to be changed and be like that of angels.
Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 15:44 how there is a natural body and a spiritual body.
The body of an angel is a spiritual body. This is what we will be changed into.
John 1:12 says, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,…”
Sons of God is a phrase for angels in the OT. We will be given power to become sons of God (angels).
For Jesus says, “For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven” (Mark 12:25).
 

Truth7t7

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1 Corinthians 15:50-52 (speaking of the Rapture) says,
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.​
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,​
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”​

Both verse 51, and 52 talks about how we shall be changed.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
So this is why we need to be changed and be like that of angels.
Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 15:44 how there is a natural body and a spiritual body.
The body of an angel is a spiritual body. This is what we will be changed into.
John 1:12 says, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,…”
Sons of God is a phrase for angels in the OT. We will be given power to become sons of God (angels).
For Jesus says, “For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven” (Mark 12:25).
There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Eternal Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Eternal Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

Bible Highlighter

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There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Eternal Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Eternal Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Not here to debate you. I am only here to share. I have my reasons in Scripture for believing the way I do.
In other words, I don’t debate Eschatology.
Most Christians need to know first about salvation and sin these days (When they really do not understand such topics).
So to debate the End Times is not as beneficial especially in light of many not knowing about the more important matters.
 

Truth7t7

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Not here to debate you. I am only here to share. I have my reasons in Scripture for believing the way I do.
In other words, I don’t debate Eschatology.
Most Christians need to know first about salvation and sin these days (When they really do not understand such topics).
So to debate the End Times is not as beneficial especially in light of many not knowing about the more important matters.
If you don't debate eschatology your in the wrong forum and thread, this has to do with the eschatology forum and the pre-trib rapture (Eschatology)

Jesus Is The Lord
 

Bible Highlighter

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If you don't debate eschatology your in the wrong forum and thread, this has to do with the eschatology forum and the pre-trib rapture (Eschatology)

Jesus Is The Lord
The poster of this thread said (at the opening of this thread) that she would not read any boxing matches (i.e. debates on this topic). So I replied mainly to her and to those in whom have ears to hear. Why would I preach something to one who is closed minded on a topic that is not as essential, like say: “The Topic of Salvation”?

Anyways, the OP’s intention of this thread was not for her to look at any debates. So no. I am not in the wrong thread. You may see this as a boxing match but it was not intended that way by the OP.

Also, where is it in the forum rules or even the Bible that says that we have to debate Eschatology?
This is where your personal beliefs have colored over reality, my friend.
So I am free to post here in sharing Eschatology without wanting to debate it (Whether you like that or not).
You are not in any power or control to tell me what I can or cannot do in how I preach God’s Word.
I am free to preach the Word as I please.

I hope this helps.

May the Lord Jesus bless you.
 
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ewq1938

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1 Corinthians 15:50-52 (speaking of the Rapture) says,
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.​
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,​
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”​

Both verse 51, and 52 talks about how we shall be changed.


The change of bodies is BEFORE the rapture. The rapture is not the resurrection nor is the change of bodies. It is moving bodies from one place to another.
 

Bible Highlighter

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The change of bodies is BEFORE the rapture. The rapture is not the resurrection nor is the change of bodies. It is moving bodies from one place to another.
It sounds like all one event. They are being changed as they are taken up is how it reads to me. But we can agree to disagree (of course).
 
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ewq1938

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It sounds like all one event. They are being changed as they are taken up is how it reads to me. But we can agree to disagree (of course).

The change isn't mentioned in the same book the moving is mentioned so not the same event but events that happen closely.