A question about the rapture

[PinSeeker]

Well, I was thinking the Rev 20 and 21 follow the 2nd Coming, and I've heard it said that the New Jerusalem is actually fulfilled in the Millennium. So I'm not sure if everything from Rev 19-21 is sequential.

Hmmm... well, I think that generally speaking, Revelation 19:11-21 covers the same period as Revelation 20:1-21:8. Revelation is a series of visions that... well, here's an outline of sorts (focus in parentheses):

Cycle 1: 7 seals 4:1-8:1 (commission of covenant judgment in heaven; the origin of God’s triumph.)
Cycle 2: 7 trumpets 8:2-11:19 (effects on earth)
Cycle 3: symbolic figures and the harvest 12:1-14:20 (depth of conflict)
Cycle 4: 7 bowls 15:1-16:21 (effects on earth, further intensity)
Cycle 5: judgment of Babylon 17:1-19:10 (elimination of the seductress)
Cycle 6: white horse judgment 19:11-21 (elimination of the power source)
Cycle 7: white throne judgment 20:1-21:8 (elimination of all evil)
The 8th and culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5

The cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself.

Also, I was raised in Lutheranism, which is Amillennial. So there's that. But since I recommitted my life to Christ as a teenager, I've associated with Premillers.

Interesting.

And I tend to think the sequence is Christ's Coming, the Millennium, and the New Jerusalem.

Hm, well, which Coming? I think I know what your answer will be, but I would suggest that Christ's first coming was before God's millennium, and His second coming will be after God's millennium is concluded.

What is Rev 19.22-23?

The last verse of Revelation 19 is verse 21.

The Amil/Premil debate has been an ongoing thing in some of these forums, including this one. Some of it has gotten a bit "testy." But I'm perfectly willing to discuss it with you.

I guess we're already sort of there... I don't really personally like the Amill label, because it seems to insinuate ~ because of the A prefix ~ that there is no millennium. I think it would be more accurate to term it Nuncmill, the prefix meaning now, or current.

The Kingdom Now concept has its points--there is presently a spiritual aspect to the Kingdom being among us. Certainly it was true when Jesus was physically here with us on earth, among his Disciples.

However, the Kingdom is near, but is not yet here. That seems pretty plain in the Scriptures.

But you would acknowledge that Jesus Himself said, 2000 plus years ago, "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" and "behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (Matthew 4:17; 10:7; Mark 1:15; Luke 10:9; 17:21) would you not? So there is a "now and not yet" quality to it. I would submit that it is here, but not yet in its fullness, but it certainly will be.

Grace and peace to you!

 

[ewq1938]

Hmmm... well, I think that generally speaking, Revelation 19:11-21 covers the same period as Revelation 20:1-21:8.

Except none of the details match so the two passages are different events at different times.

 

[PinSeeker]

Except none of the details match so the two passages are different events at different times.

Opinion noted...

Again, the cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself.

I never insinuated that the details match. But even so, that makes no difference regarding the time frame referenced.

You hit on the main issue with the various "understandings" of John's Revelation ~ the wrong-headed intent of focusing on details rather than the big picture. Starting with details and ignoring the big picture. God is at the center of Revelation. We must start with him and with the contrasts between him and his satanic opponents. If instead we try right away to puzzle out details, it is as if we tried to use a knife by grasping it by the blade instead of the handle. We are starting at the wrong end. Revelation is a picture book, not a puzzle book. Don’t try to puzzle it out. Don’t become preoccupied by isolated details. Rather, become engrossed in the story. Praise the Lord. Cheer for the saints. Detest the Beast. Long for the final victory.

Grace and peace to you, ewq.

 

[ewq1938]

Opinion noted...

Again, the cycles parallel one another.

There is none in Rev 19 and 20 though. Anyone with a bible and reads them will agree with me.

 

[PinSeeker]

There is none in Rev 19 and 20 though.

In your opinion, yes, I understand. I say, ewq, you're doing precisely what I just said... in other words, missing the forest for the trees, or maybe more appropriately here, confusing the two. To Revelation 19 and 20, though, there's more to it than this, but I would think it very easy to connect Revelation 19:11-21 to Revelation 20:7-10 at the very least.

Anyone with a bible and reads them will agree with me.

Well, anyone who reads Revelation like you apparently do, yes. That's pretty much what I have said.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

In your opinion, yes, I understand.

It's not opinion. It's fact. I have read both, they are not parallels as you claim.

 

[PinSeeker]

It's not opinion. It's fact.

In... your opinion... Yes, noted (again) and respected. Just calling it fact does not make it so, ewq. And, to be fair, you can say (and you are) that what I am saying is my opinion. And so it goes...

I have read both, they are not parallels as you claim.

Same as above.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

In... your opinion...

No, not opinion since my position is based on facts. What is found in Rev 19 is no where the same as in the middle of Rev 20. That means no parallel. Anyone who reads them will agree with me.

 

[David in NJ]

Opinion noted...

Again, the cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself.

I never insinuated that the details match. But even so, that makes no difference regarding the time frame referenced.

You hit on the main issue with the various "understandings" of John's Revelation ~ the wrong-headed intent of focusing on details rather than the big picture. Starting with details and ignoring the big picture. God is at the center of Revelation. We must start with him and with the contrasts between him and his satanic opponents. If instead we try right away to puzzle out details, it is as if we tried to use a knife by grasping it by the blade instead of the handle. We are starting at the wrong end. Revelation is a picture book, not a puzzle book. Don’t try to puzzle it out. Don’t become preoccupied by isolated details. Rather, become engrossed in the story. Praise the Lord. Cheer for the saints. Detest the Beast. Long for the final victory.

Grace and peace to you, ewq.

ch19 continues into ch20 as Satan is locked up upon the LORD's Second Coming

However ch20 clearly designates a new time period/era is about to begin = 1,000 literal years of ruling & reigning with Christ over the nations.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, not opinion since my position is based on facts

You think it is, sure. And your position may be based on facts, but still be incorrect. Round and round we go...

What is found in Rev 19 is no where the same as in the middle of Rev 20.

You don't see a big, huge spiritual battle going on in both Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10? Well that's... interesting...

That means no parallel. Anyone who reads them will agree with me.

I... don't think so...

Grace and peace to you, ewq.

 

[PinSeeker]

ch19 continues into ch20 as Satan is locked up upon the LORD's Second Coming

In very real sense, Chapter 20 starts over again (from verse 1 on) after the conclusion of Revelation 19. You will obviously disagree, and you will surely not be alone in so doing.

However ch20 clearly designates a new time period/era is about to begin = 1,000 literal years of ruling & reigning with Christ over the nations.

Well, now, we would, to a large extent, agree on this, David. Except for "new," if you mean to the exclusion of anything before, and "literal," if you mean that in a woodenly literalistic sense. Well, and "about to begin," too, if, as I suspect you do, you mean still future, two thousand years after John wrote down this prophecy. But regarding all three of these things, there is at least one different ~ and very much valid ~ understanding.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[David in NJ]

In very real sense, Chapter 20 starts over again (from verse 1 on) after the conclusion of Revelation 19. You will obviously disagree, and you will surely not be alone in so doing.


Well, now, we would, to a large extent, agree on this, David. Except for "new," if you mean to the exclusion of anything before, and "literal," if you mean that in a woodenly literalistic sense. Well, and "about to begin," too, if, as I suspect you do, you mean still future, two thousand years after John wrote down this prophecy. But regarding all three of these things, there is at least one different ~ and very much valid ~ understanding.

Grace and peace to you.

Please bear with me and the fact we are just texting online.

It is impossible for ch20 to start over again, at least from this aspect, Satan is locked up!
That cannot take place until ch19 completes itself.
Therefore, ch20 starts (verse 1) by permission with the completion of ch19

Peace and Blessing to you as well

 

[PinSeeker]

Please bear with me and the fact we are just texting online.

It is impossible for ch20 to start over again, at least from this aspect, Satan is locked up!
That cannot take place until ch19 completes itself.
Therefore, ch20 starts (verse 1) by permission with the completion of ch19

Hey, David, no problem, my friend. I would ask that you bear with me also.

Disagreement regarding the millennium at least partly centers on this chronological relation for Revelation 20:1-10 and Revelation 19:11-21, but it makes much more sense to see Revelation 20:1-15 as the last cycle of judgments, out of a total of seven, leading up to the Second Coming. There is much more focus on it (the Second Coming), because the story continues after the final battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 20:7-10), because Revelation 20 sees the final Judgment in verses 11-15 and then the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21:1-8. But just regarding the sixth (Revelation 19:11-21) and seventh (Revelation 20:1-Revelation 21:8), several different evidences should point us in this parallel direction:

• The final battle in Revelation 20:7-10 seems to be the same as the final battle in Revelation 16:14,16 (fourth cycle of judgments); Revelation 17:14 (fifth cycle of judgments); Revelation 19:11-21 (sixth cycle of judgments).
• Similar language from Ezekiel 38-39 is used in the various descriptions of the final battle.
• The judgment of Satan in Revelation 20:10 parallels the judgments against Babylon (Revelation 17-18) and against the Beast and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:11-21). These enemies of God all receive their doom, and the visions depicting their doom are thematically rather than chronologically arranged.
• Certain features in Revelation 20:11-15 correspond to earlier descriptions of the Second Coming (Revelation 6:14; Revelation 11:18).
• Most important, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21. If Revelation 20:1-6 were to represent events later than Revelation 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in 20:3.

Thus, 20:1-15 is to be seen as a 7th cycle leading to the Second Coming. It parallels all the other cycles, rather than representing a unique period chronologically later than any of the others.

Grace and peace to you!

 

[rebuilder 454]

The 10 Virgins parable is not a problem for Postrib Teaching. Let me explain by using my own interpretation of the parable. Jesus was speaking, at the time, to Jews before the NT and before the Cross. At that time, Israel had been betrothed to God under the Law, but the Law had proven to be a barrier to the fulfillment of the Marriage, rather than its completion.

And so, Israel is depicted as "Virgins," and as "Bridesmaids," since they were not yet fully consummated in the Marriage. 10 depicts a complete number that can be divided equally into 5s. Half were under the Covenant of Law but would not consummate the Marriage by entering into the New Covenant. Half would ultimately succeed in consummating the Marriage.

This is simply a matter of belief in Christ and in expectation of his judgment on the basis of his righteousness. Many Jews have rejected Jesus and thus do not believe in his righteousness and therefore are not ready. Other Jews have accepted Jesus and are prepared by his righteousness. Ultimately, more Jews will enter in, as well, and as Christians be prepared for his Coming.

None of this in the least disproves Postrib Doctrine. We are to prepare now, to be ready now, so that when he comes, we will be able to fully consummate this Spiritual Marriage to Christ.

..and yet it vividly describes the rapture of the church.
I have seen others try to change "virgins" into bridesmaids to redo what the story is .

mat 25;6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
rev 22;17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

But you choose to make the bride and groom into a "Jewish only" dynamic.

vs 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Wow thats great!
only Jews have to "watch and wait"

 

[No Pre-TB]

This is your error. Don't put words in my mouth and then claim I am wrong.

I don’t intend to do so. You made a claim and I responded.

The elders have crowns. That should tell you something.

Yes it does, but not how you take it.

Which kingdom?

Thus begins the problem

This has nothing to do with the trump of God

I’d rather follow scripture.

The elders are not the Church.

But you did say Jesus had come by then because they have crowns. How many times does he come?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not real sure what you mean by that, but okay.


Well, I agree with this, but not sure I would see eye to eye with you regarding the particulars.


Disagree with this. This is what I was saying in my original post above. Specifically, I think we should see what's described in Revelation 19:22-21 as a description of the same event described in Revelation 20:7-10.


Well... yes, but... You know, Jesus said two millennia ago ~ on numerous occasions ~ that the Kingdom was here...

Grace and peace to you, Randy.

no, not what is says.
In 19 the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.
then the millineum.
AFTER THE MIL SATAN is thrown in. (rev 20)

 

[Gottservant]

I’m not here to teach. Bible study fellowship in Church is for that. Soul winning is for that. Talking to my neighbors is for that. I’m here to discuss things that I’m passionate about.

You may think I’m wrong. Others thought Paul, all 12 disciples and Christ were wrong too. The difference is we can be polite. We can bridle our tongues. If I make a mistake and my flesh gets the best of me, call me out on it. I’d rather hear it from any of you than a blasphemer that denies Christ. At least I’d know you did it out of love to protect me that I learn and change then one who does it to glorify himself because he witnessed a Christian fall.

I want to be corrected too - this is a wonderful thought!

I don't need correction on everything, but the idea that I know everything is obtuse!

 

[David in NJ]

Hey, David, no problem, my friend. I would ask that you bear with me also.

Disagreement regarding the millennium at least partly centers on this chronological relation for Revelation 20:1-10 and Revelation 19:11-21, but it makes much more sense to see Revelation 20:1-15 as the last cycle of judgments, out of a total of seven, leading up to the Second Coming. There is much more focus on it (the Second Coming), because the story continues after the final battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 20:7-10), because Revelation 20 sees the final Judgment in verses 11-15 and then the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21:1-8. But just regarding the sixth (Revelation 19:11-21) and seventh (Revelation 20:1-Revelation 21:8), several different evidences should point us in this parallel direction:

• The final battle in Revelation 20:7-10 seems to be the same as the final battle in Revelation 16:14,16 (fourth cycle of judgments); Revelation 17:14 (fifth cycle of judgments); Revelation 19:11-21 (sixth cycle of judgments).
• Similar language from Ezekiel 38-39 is used in the various descriptions of the final battle.
• The judgment of Satan in Revelation 20:10 parallels the judgments against Babylon (Revelation 17-18) and against the Beast and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:11-21). These enemies of God all receive their doom, and the visions depicting their doom are thematically rather than chronologically arranged.
• Certain features in Revelation 20:11-15 correspond to earlier descriptions of the Second Coming (Revelation 6:14; Revelation 11:18).
• Most important, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21. If Revelation 20:1-6 were to represent events later than Revelation 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in 20:3.

Thus, 20:1-15 is to be seen as a 7th cycle leading to the Second Coming. It parallels all the other cycles, rather than representing a unique period chronologically later than any of the others.

Grace and peace to you!

You said: "the last cycle of judgments, out of a total of seven, leading up to the Second Coming."

i AGREE with the above statement = 100%

Here is the difference between the previous six and the seventh:
a.) ONLY in the 7th is Satan locked up
b.) ONLY in the 7th do we enter a literal 1,000 Year Period as predetermined by the LORD in Genesis

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hmmm... well, I think that generally speaking, Revelation 19:11-21 covers the same period as Revelation 20:1-21:8. Revelation is a series of visions that... well, here's an outline of sorts (focus in parentheses):

Cycle 1: 7 seals 4:1-8:1 (commission of covenant judgment in heaven; the origin of God’s triumph.)
Cycle 2: 7 trumpets 8:2-11:19 (effects on earth)
Cycle 3: symbolic figures and the harvest 12:1-14:20 (depth of conflict)
Cycle 4: 7 bowls 15:1-16:21 (effects on earth, further intensity)
Cycle 5: judgment of Babylon 17:1-19:10 (elimination of the seductress)
Cycle 6: white horse judgment 19:11-21 (elimination of the power source)
Cycle 7: white throne judgment 20:1-21:8 (elimination of all evil)
The 8th and culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5

The cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself.


Interesting.


Hm, well, which Coming? I think I know what your answer will be, but I would suggest that Christ's first coming was before God's millennium, and His second coming will be after God's millennium is concluded.


The last verse of Revelation 19 is verse 21.


I guess we're already sort of there... I don't really personally like the Amill label, because it seems to insinuate ~ because of the A prefix ~ that there is no millennium. I think it would be more accurate to term it Nuncmill, the prefix meaning now, or current.


But you would acknowledge that Jesus Himself said, 2000 plus years ago, "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" and "behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (Matthew 4:17; 10:7; Mark 1:15; Luke 10:9; 17:21) would you not? So there is a "now and not yet" quality to it. I would submit that it is here, but not yet in its fullness, but it certainly will be.

Grace and peace to you!

 

[ewq1938]

You don't see a big, huge spiritual battle going on in both Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10? Well that's... interesting...

I see what the bible says, two separate battles at dif times and dif places.