A question about the rapture

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
8,163
2,563
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hmmm... well, I think that generally speaking, Revelation 19:11-21 covers the same period as Revelation 20:1-21:8. Revelation is a series of visions that... well, here's an outline of sorts (focus in parentheses)
Your "cycles" do not help me, and I'm completely familiar with all of the visions of Revelation. We know there is conflict, and we know Christ resolves this conflict at his 2nd Coming. We know that Revelation is a series of visions, but I do not see Rev 19 and Rev 20 as being the same vision, or different aspects of the same. There may be similarities, but that does not establish co-identity.
The cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself.
I don't necessarily disagree with this. For me, the entire Revelation is focused on a single Coming of Christ. The many symbols used are familiar to those who have studied the 2nd Coming--the clouds, the archangel, the trumpet, descent from heaven, etc.
Hm, well, which Coming? :) I think I know what your answer will be, but I would suggest that Christ's first coming was before God's millennium, and His second coming will be after God's millennium is concluded.
Christ's 1st Coming was his earthly ministry. I don't see him coming "secretly" for a world-wide Rapture of the universal Church! Doesn't make sense--it's self-contradictory. How can you have such an enormous event being "secret?" Not only that, but it isn't spelled out *explicitly* in the Bible, and hasn't been believed in for the 1st 1800 years of Christian history. It is modern eschatology at its worst, in my opinion. And I don't mean to be rude.
The last verse of Revelation 19 is verse 21.
That was my point. I was being referred to Rev 19.22 and it doesn't exist! post (post #279)
I guess we're already sort of there... :) I don't really personally like the Amill label, because it seems to insinuate ~ because of the A prefix ~ that there is no millennium. I think it would be more accurate to term it Nuncmill, the prefix meaning now, or current.
Yes, "Amil" is just a term to distinguish between Amills and Premills. We all pretty much know what each position holds to. Amills believe in Rev 20 and the "Millennium," but not in the Premil sense. For them, it is a symbol of the present age, with Christ reigning together with his Church over the forces of Satan.
But you would acknowledge that Jesus Himself said, 2000 plus years ago, "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" and "behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (Matthew 4:17; 10:7; Mark 1:15; Luke 10:9; 17:21) would you not? So there is a "now and not yet" quality to it. I would submit that it is here, but not yet in its fullness, but it certainly will be.
Yes, of course. Jesus was physically in the midst of Israel while he was in his earthly ministry. The Kingdom was there in the King, who had humbled himself and was not yet reigning in his Kingdom. We also have a degree of Kingdom power, and yet also are not yet able to reign on earth together with Christ. The Kingdom is "near," but not yet *here.* That's my position as a Premil.

Take care. I personally think both positions are "Christian."
 
Last edited:

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,750
741
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You said: "the last cycle of judgments, out of a total of seven, leading up to the Second Coming."

i AGREE with the above statement = 100%
Good. But I feel a "but" coming... :)

Here is the difference between the previous six and the seventh:
a.) ONLY in the 7th is Satan locked up
b.) ONLY in the 7th do we enter a literal 1,000 Year Period as predetermined by the LORD in Genesis
Just because it is not mentioned does not mean it not a reality in previous cycles, David. As you may remember, I said, "The cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself."

Grace and peace to you!
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,895
4,178
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Good. But I feel a "but" coming... :)


Just because it is not mentioned does not mean it not a reality in previous cycles, David. As you may remember, I said, "The cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself."

Grace and peace to you!
Good Morning,
Fresh coffee is now being served at Dave & Alison's Place with Alison's Homemade Blueberry muffins

@PinSeeker says: "Just because it is not mentioned does not mean it not a reality in previous cycles,"

Now Brother/Sister?, your comment here is a 'lol' moment and you should agree because of Rev ch1 thru ch19 whereby the Dragon/Satan
is in power, roaming about, and diecting the Mark of the Beast.
This satan could not do and will not do once he is locked up = 20:1-3

This is a SLAM DUNK for understanding Truth = "And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him,
so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete."
 
Last edited:

rebuilder 454

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2023
2,048
470
83
68
robstown
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
BTW, can a postibber unpack the 10 virgin parable?
Lets look at it and correct me with all the parable's components in tact
Still waiting for the postrib version.
Only one dared to venture in,and he rendered the vivid picture of the groom gathering his bride as basically a nothingburger.
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,895
4,178
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Still waiting for the postrib version.
Only one dared to venture in,and he rendered the vivid picture of the groom gathering his bride as basically a nothingburger.
God's Post-Trib Truth is firmly established in Genesis chapters 1 - 7

Genesis is God's Foundation of Truth for all that follows.

Turn away from the 'pre-trib fable' and turn back to TRUTH = "Thy word is Truth"
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,750
741
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your "cycles" do not help me...
Okay... :) I mean, that's neither here nor there, really, but okay. My "cycles don't help" you... I don't even get that... :)

...I do not see Rev 19 and Rev 20 as being the same vision, or different aspects of the same. There may be similarities, but that does not establish co-identity.
Well, they're not the same vision, really, unless we lump it all together generally as John's prophecy, which he himself did in his introduction in Revelation 1:3. And, as I said to another poster, I'd say the fact that there's this epic battle going on in Revelation 10:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 is a really big similarity. :)

I don't necessarily disagree with this. For me, the entire Revelation is focused on a single Coming of Christ. The many symbols used are familiar to those who have studied the 2nd Coming--the clouds, the archangel, the trumpet, descent from heaven, etc.
Right. And along these same lines, I said earlier that the focus gets shifted by many, who want to try to puzzle out all the details. And besides missing the main point... that God is always in control, the future is never in doubt, and Christ wins... a plethora of misunderstandings unfortunately result.

Christ's 1st Coming was his earthly ministry. I don't see him coming "secretly" for a world-wide Rapture of the universal Church! Doesn't make sense--it's self-contradictory. How can you have such an enormous event being "secret?" Not only that, but it isn't spelled out *explicitly* in the Bible, and hasn't been believed in for the 1st 1800 years of Christian history. It is modern eschatology at its worst, in my opinion. And I don't mean to be rude.
Well, I might state it somewhat differently, but yes, I agree. And just regarding explicitness, I would say ~ and I think you would agree ~ that what is very explicit that Jesus's return will be sudden, surely not in secret, and once and for all, and, well, rapturous. :)

That was my point. I was being referred to Rev 19.22 and it doesn't exist! post (post #279)
Ah, yeah, I see that... I said "Revelation 19:22-21" Hmmm, a typo... I meant verses 20 and 21. So yeah, I'm not perfect...
giphy.gif


Yes, "Amil" is just a term to distinguish between Amills and Premills. We all pretty much know what each position holds to. Amills believe in Rev 20 and the "Millennium," but not in the Premil sense. For them, it is a symbol of the present age, with Christ reigning together with his Church over the forces of Satan.
Sure. But the term "Amill" is a misnomer, in my opinion; that was my not-terribly-important point. :)

Yes, of course. Jesus was physically in the midst of Israel while he was in his earthly ministry. The Kingdom was there in the King, who had humbled himself and was not yet reigning in his Kingdom. We also have a degree of Kingdom power, and yet also are not yet able to reign on earth together with Christ. The Kingdom is "near," but not yet *here.* That's my position as a Premil.
Okay, yes, our positions are at least pretty close together here. But I would say that the Kingdom is here, just not yet in its fullness, not yet consummated. As I have said before, Jesus is our King now, which I think you agree with, so... Well, we can leave it there; I will just say that there is a clear "now-and-not-yet" quality ~ pertaining to a number of things, another example being that we Christians are saved and are being saved at the same time ~ to the Kingdom of God. I think part of the... well, issue, I guess... in grasping this can be thinking of it as a thing, even the whole earth, rather than a people; in a very real sense, we are His Kingdom ~ in the sense that all whom God has given Him are His (John 6:39, 10:29, 17:2,9,11,12), and the fact that, as Paul says, we in Christ are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord... in Whom we also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit (Ephesians 2:19-22).

Take care.
Same to you, Randy. Thank you for your thoughts and... civility. :)

I personally think both positions are "Christian."
Agreed. Yes, in conversations like this, a "you're not as Christian as I am" or "you're less Christian than I am" insinuation can be made and/or received, and that's not good. :) Yes, agreed.

Grace and peace to you, my friend.
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,750
741
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God's Post-Trib Truth is firmly established in Genesis chapters 1 - 7
Hm. Well this comment was directed at another poster, David, but I would ask for some elaboration on your part here. :) And I'm not expressing disagreement... yet, at least... :)

Genesis is God's Foundation of Truth for all that follows.
Well, okay, again, I don't disagree, but same as above. :)

Grace and peace to you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: David in NJ

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,895
4,178
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hm. Well this comment was directed at another poster, David, but I would ask for some elaboration on your part here. :) And I'm not expressing disagreement... yet, at least... :)


Well, okay, again, I don't disagree, but same as above. :)

Grace and peace to you.
i am on errands right now - will get back to you later in the day
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,910
611
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Post Gt and Pre-Wrath PickUP
Obviously the tribulation of those days started in 30AD. Matthew 24:4-13

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

That trib started hours after Pentecost and people are still being martyred today. That all immediately stops when Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives.

Then Jesus sets up His throne in His Temple and opens the 7th Seal. Then the Trumpets began as judgment on Israel. That is Jacob's trouble. Jesus and the angels are gathering the final harvest throughout this time of trouble and woe, until the 7th Thunder. Then the 7th Trumpet starts; declaring all of earth's kingdoms are directly under the authority of Jesus. Like a conqueror, Jesus is present on earth, taking back earth one soul at a time. Jesus is on earth with the 144k during Jacob's trouble. How long this time takes depends on how many souls are still alive on earth between the Second Coming and when the Atonement Covenant is confirmed the week of the days of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:6-7

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

You all seem to be looking for the wrong Christ. You are expecting an antichrist development instead of the Actual Christ.

You base the return and rapture on this antichrist scenario. The only sign of return prior to the Second Coming is the parable of the fig tree. No AoD, no time of Jacob's trouble. These are not signs of the Second Coming. These are potential events before the Day of the Lord, the 1,000 year reign of Jesus. Jesus cleans house in person. The church does not clean house. Other than the church has had 1993 years to clean house, and did about as fine of a job as caretakers as the 1400 years given to Israel.

Despite great tribulation, the church was even better equipped than the nation of Israel coming out of Egypt. Could the ten virgins represent the church and Israel at the Lord's return? Instead of claiming an impossible scenario where part of the church looses their salvation, the nation of Israel was never given the full access of the Holy Spirit like the church was even though both had lamps for oil. Both the church and Israel are waiting for Jesus. Israel is not aware that they will be redeemed in a day. Those who are aware are part of the church, until the Second Coming. That the church wants to be Israel on earth after the Second Coming is telling.

Post trib individuals are literally claiming they are the 5 ignorant virgins without the Holy Spirit, still waiting for redemption. Unless they have the blood of Jacob, they stand little chance of preventing Satan's deception. Only a third of Jacob is redeemed as sheep. Then comes the wheat and tare harvest. John was not allowed to give us a preview of that time. Then the last harvest are those who chop their heads off. What a way to persevere.
 

rebuilder 454

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2023
2,048
470
83
68
robstown
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is really no starting place of discussion with those that cancel the components of end times dynamics.
Whew
what a buffet of slop in here.
 

rebuilder 454

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2023
2,048
470
83
68
robstown
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Nobody can bother with or even read the virgin parable, which is the rapture.

I have read through some of the threads and have yet to see anyone address the bride and groom component.

End times chatter without the heart of heaven.
WOW
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,750
741
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Good Morning,
Fresh coffee is now being served at Dave & Alison's Place with Alison's Homemade Blueberry muffins
Would I be incorrect in thinking that there are other really good things available for purchase at Dave & Alison's Place? :)

@PinSeeker says: "Just because it is not mentioned does not mean it not a reality in previous cycles,"

Now Brother/Sister?, your comment here is a 'lol' moment and you should agree...
Well, I do agree, but... :)

because of Rev ch1 thru ch19 whereby the Dragon/Satan
is in power, roaming about, and diecting the Mark of the Beast.
This satan could not do and will not do once he is locked up = 20:1-3

This is a SLAM DUNK for understanding Truth = "And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him,
so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete."
Ah, it seems the rhetoric is ramping up, here...

Satan's binding... Well, as I have said ~ and you, along with others, will continue to disagree, I'm sure ~ Satan is bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed; he cannot deceive the nations. The binding of Satan has already taken place through Christ’s death and resurrection (John 12:31; Colossians 2:15; Revelation 12:9; Matthew 12:29). The present spread of the gospel to the nations, as initiated in Acts, is the result of a restriction on Satan’s power to deceive. This restriction on Satan’s power is closely associated with the present temporary demise of the Beast (Revelation 17:8). The deceiving of the nations takes place largely through the activity of the Beast (Revelation 13:14; 16:14; 19:20). As the Beast can suffer repeated defeats (Revelation 17:8,10), so Satan can suffer repeated defeats in his power over the nations. And yes, when the millennium is brought to a close, he will be loosed for a little while (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 20:3,7-10).

Grace and peace to you, David.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,910
611
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The flood is like the wrath at the second coming. The GT is the time before that. Same thing for Lot.
The GT is judgment not wrath. Lot was removed prior to judgment. Lot's daughters and son in laws stayed in Sodom during the judgment. The pre-trib view is Lot. The post trib view is removel of dead bodies after the judgment of Lot's family left behind.

Revelation gives the time of judgement and wrath at separate points while the destruction of Sodom was a single event. The examples are like in comparison, not exact duplicates. You have the apostasy in Lot's example as the family that refused to leave with Lot. Apostasy happens way before any judgment sometimes several generations prior to judgment. When God extends the judgment to the third and fourth generation. That represents God's longsuffering giving humans time to repent.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
8,163
2,563
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Okay... :) I mean, that's neither here nor there, really, but okay. My "cycles don't help" you... I don't even get that... :)


Well, they're not the same vision, really, unless we lump it all together generally as John's prophecy, which he himself did in his introduction in Revelation 1:3. And, as I said to another poster, I'd say the fact that there's this epic battle going on in Revelation 10:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 is a really big similarity. :)


Right. And along these same lines, I said earlier that the focus gets shifted by many, who want to try to puzzle out all the details. And besides missing the main point... that God is always in control, the future is never in doubt, and Christ wins... a plethora of misunderstandings unfortunately result.


Well, I might state it somewhat differently, but yes, I agree. And just regarding explicitness, I would say ~ and I think you would agree ~ that what is very explicit that Jesus's return will be sudden, surely not in secret, and once and for all, and, well, rapturous. :)


Ah, yeah, I see that... I said "Revelation 19:22-21" Hmmm, a typo... I meant verses 20 and 21. So yeah, I'm not perfect...
giphy.gif



Sure. But the term "Amill" is a misnomer, in my opinion; that was my not-terribly-important point. :)


Okay, yes, our positions are at least pretty close together here. But I would say that the Kingdom is here, just not yet in its fullness, not yet consummated. As I have said before, Jesus is our King now, which I think you agree with, so... Well, we can leave it there; I will just say that there is a clear "now-and-not-yet" quality ~ pertaining to a number of things, another example being that we Christians are saved and are being saved at the same time ~ to the Kingdom of God. I think part of the... well, issue, I guess... in grasping this can be thinking of it as a thing, even the whole earth, rather than a people; in a very real sense, we are His Kingdom ~ in the sense that all whom God has given Him are His (John 6:39, 10:29, 17:2,9,11,12), and the fact that, as Paul says, we in Christ are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord... in Whom we also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit (Ephesians 2:19-22).


Same to you, Randy. Thank you for your thoughts and... civility. :)


Agreed. Yes, in conversations like this, a "you're not as Christian as I am" or "you're less Christian than I am" insinuation can be made and/or received, and that's not good. :) Yes, agreed.

Grace and peace to you, my friend.
Whether or not we agree on some of this is much, much less important than the "civility" aspect of this. We are brothers in Christ, 1st of all, and then we discuss things in a "civil" way. How can we edify one another when we're cutting each other up into ribbons? ;) So, I very much appreciate you, as well, brother. I'm not offended by your having a different position, or by anybody having different positions, when they continue to walk in Christ and "love one another."

I didn't mean to point out a "typo" above--I knew that obviously. If I had stopped to think, I would've seen what you meant. But I didn't.... Anyway, we agree that there are present aspects of the Kingdom, well before the eternal Kingdom comes. As a Premil, Postrib I read the book by George E. Ladd titled "The Presence of the Future." I read this way back in the late 70s.

Think about that title for a moment, and recognize what Ladd was saying. He was saying just what you are, that the Future Kingdom already has a present aspect. The Kingdom, in some sense, is already *present,* even though it is also *future.* So we agree on that.

In fact, I shared some of this with a person I met, Howard Pepper, who used to work at Christian Research Institute. He was very big on the present dynamics of Kingdom living, believing as many "Faith" people do, that we can sort of "force" the Kingdom into this world, and impose some kind of conversion upon it, whether by judgment or by evangelism. He saw miracles as being presently available so that Satan can be driven out, just as Jesus' apostles did.

Well, some of this I agree with and some I don't. I agree that miracles and gifts of the Spirit are still for today. But as to driving Satan out of this world, I don't see that. Instead, I see many Antichrists having their way...at least temporarily. We may very well exorcise demons, but we do not have the capacity to remove Satan from the air, nor from this present world, which continues to be very dark indeed!

Anyway, we have Kingdom powers, but it is not yet, is my position. Thank you for your calm respectful demeanor. It goes a long way in the testimony of who Christ is, which is really what the Gospel is all about. We are saved by his changing our character, and making us ready today for the eternity that is coming tomorrow.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PinSeeker

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,910
611
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh dear.
WE ALL believe he is coming post trib.
Not all of us. Jesus pointed out the return is when the majority think not.

Matthew 24:44

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."


Luke 12:40

"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."


Jesus is saying many will think they know, but that is not when the Second Coming will happen. The majority view is that Revelation 19 is the Second Coming. So obviously the point made is that the Second Coming is not that point that everyone is expecting.

The battle of Armageddon is a planned event, down to the day and the hour. Another reason Revelation 19 is nor the Second Coming. Jesus said: Matthew 25:18

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

Armageddon is on a Sunday at 5pm, if you connect the dots in Revelation. The period of 42 months. The days of the 7th Trumpet. The 3.5 days the two witnesses lay dead and are brought back to life. People want to use the 2 individuals to represent those alive and remain. But the 2 witnesses are remain, just not alive. They literally are dead, not alive, before they ascend to heaven on Sunday. The same day as the battle of Armageddon.

The rapture would not be a surprise if all of those alive and remain had their physical bodies in a state of death 3.5 days just prior to the rapture. Neither would the Second Coming for that matter. Paul does not separate the Second Coming from the rapture. No one should. The issue is most think the Second Coming is a certain revealed fact. When it is not, not even in Revelation 19. The battle of Armageddon is a Coming for a particular reason, but not the thief in the night moment of the Second Coming.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,910
611
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation ch14 is JESUS on the clouds with a sickle - absolutely True

Matt 25: 1-13 Parable is also simple truth from the Master = a person is either saved or not, you are either "known" or not

RED FLAG ALERT = pre-trib left behind / trib saints
Revelation 14 is not a rapture and Second Coming. It is the wrath after the final harvest, which is after the rapture and Second Coming. There is no 42 months given to Satan if Revelation 14 happens. If Revelation 14 happens, then the next chapter would be Revelation 20. Satan would be bound and the Day of the Lord would start.
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,750
741
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Whether or not we agree on some of this is much, much less important than the "civility" aspect of this. We are brothers in Christ, 1st of all, and then we discuss things in a "civil" way. How can we edify one another when we're cutting each other up into ribbons? ;) So, I very much appreciate you, as well, brother. I'm not offended by your having a different position, or by anybody having different positions, when they continue to walk in Christ and "love one another."
Sure. Absolutely.

I didn't mean to point out a "typo" above--I knew that obviously. If I had stopped to think, I would've seen what you meant. But I didn't....
LOL! No worries.

Anyway, we agree that there are present aspects of the Kingdom, well before the eternal Kingdom comes. As a Premil, Postrib I read the book by George E. Ladd titled "The Presence of the Future." I read this way back in the late 70s.
I know him. :) Haven't read that one, but I would recommend "The Gospel of the Kingdom; Scriptural Studies in the Kingdom of God."

The Gospel of the Kingdom: Scriptural Studies in the Kingdom of God
ir
.

I agree that miracles and gifts of the Spirit are still for today. But as to driving Satan out of this world, I don't see that.
Sure. But Paul does exhort us to put on the full armor of God, so that we can stand against his schemes. Which, I would say is very closely related to... "with man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26) and "I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13). You agree, I'm sure.

Thank you for your calm respectful demeanor. It goes a long way in the testimony of who Christ is, which is really what the Gospel is all about. We are saved by his changing our character, and making us ready today for the eternity that is coming tomorrow.
Same to you. Amen and amen! Grace and peace to you, Randy.
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,895
4,178
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Would I be incorrect in thinking that there are other really good things available for purchase at Dave & Alison's Place? :)


Well, I do agree, but... :)


Ah, it seems the rhetoric is ramping up, here...

Satan's binding... Well, as I have said ~ and you, along with others, will continue to disagree, I'm sure ~ Satan is bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed; he cannot deceive the nations. The binding of Satan has already taken place through Christ’s death and resurrection (John 12:31; Colossians 2:15; Revelation 12:9; Matthew 12:29). The present spread of the gospel to the nations, as initiated in Acts, is the result of a restriction on Satan’s power to deceive. This restriction on Satan’s power is closely associated with the present temporary demise of the Beast (Revelation 17:8). The deceiving of the nations takes place largely through the activity of the Beast (Revelation 13:14; 16:14; 19:20). As the Beast can suffer repeated defeats (Revelation 17:8,10), so Satan can suffer repeated defeats in his power over the nations. And yes, when the millennium is brought to a close, he will be loosed for a little while (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 20:3,7-10).

Grace and peace to you, David.
i thought you were looking for Truth in the Holy Scripture rather then denying them(human conjecture).

Saying that: "Satan is bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed; he cannot deceive the nations."
This is in DIRECT CONFLICT with "It is written" and therefore must be abandonned.

Satan indeed has been defeated by the LORD Jesus Christ but he has not yet finished his course as allowed by the FATHER.
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,750
741
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
i thought you were looking for Truth in the Holy Scripture rather then denying them(human conjecture).
I think this is my cue to bow out gracefully, David. I mean, I cited several passages of Scripture in my post in support of my position, which I would not have done, of course, if I was "looking to deny Holy Scripture." My goodness.

Saying that: "Satan is bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed; he cannot deceive the nations."
This is in DIRECT CONFLICT with "It is written" and therefore must be abandoned.
I do understand that to be your opinion, David. I would say quite the opposite... and I have no problem with you calling that my opinion. :)

Satan indeed has been defeated by the LORD Jesus Christ...
Well, yes and no...

...but he has not yet finished his course as allowed by the FATHER.
Agreed.

Grace and peace to you, David.
 
Last edited:

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,910
611
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Who here believes the events of Revelation 20 to follow, chronologically, the events of Revelation 19? That seems to be the issue...

Grace and peace to all.
Revelation 20 happens chronologically after all of Revelation 1 through 19. Who thinks Revelation 20 happens before 6BC?