A question about the rapture

[Gottservant]

Have you looked closely to see what it is exactly that we should pray to escape? Is it things that will happen for 7 years during a future tribulation period? Or something else? Let's look at the text to find out.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

When you read this you should see that what Jesus was saying we should pray that we will be accounted worthy to escape is not literally everything He had previously talked about, which would even include earthquakes and wars and such. If that's what He meant then we have all already failed to escape it.

No, He was talking about being worthy to escape something that would "come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". That doesn't describe everything He had previously talked about. Look at what He said in verse 34. He talked about being careful to not have "that day" come upon us unexpectedly. And then, still talking about "that day", He said "as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". So, what day is it that He said we should not let come upon us unexpectedly and that we should pray to escape? The day He comes again. The day that heaven and earth pass away. That is the context of what He was talking about. He was not saying we should pray to escape anything except what comes upon the whole earth on the day He returns.

I appreciate you twisting my words in a way that you think helps (really, that shows you are interested in what I have to say). However, I point you to the word "always", is that because a snare is coming? Or because many things are coming among which is a snare?

The point is, if you are always praying, you will always be delivered.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I appreciate you twisting my words in a way that you think helps (really, that shows you are interested in what I have to say).

How did I twist your words exactly? I certainly was not intending to do that. Maybe I misunderstood something you said. It happens. So, just tell me how I misrepresented your view without assuming I was purposely twisting your words. I have no reason to do that.

However, I point you to the word "always", is that because a snare is coming? Or because many things are coming among which is a snare?

The point is, if you are always praying, you will always be delivered.

I don't know what you are saying. Sorry. You don't think He was talking about praying to escape "that day" when something will happen that affects everyone on the whole earth?

 

[Gottservant]

How did I twist your words exactly?

You said "you should see that what Jesus was saying we should pray that we will be accounted worthy to escape is not literally everything He had previously talked about, which would even include earthquakes and wars and such" as if I was making the mistake of being too literal (indeed, when in fact you are talking about "context", which is something different).

I certainly was not intending to do that. Maybe I misunderstood something you said. It happens. So, just tell me how I misrepresented your view without assuming I was purposely twisting your words. I have no reason to do that.

If there is a speck in my eye, I would certainly like for you to take it out (you may have to take the plank out of your own eye first, but don't forget me!)

I don't know what you are saying. Sorry. You don't think He was talking about praying to escape "that day" when something will happen that affects everyone on the whole earth?

"Day" refers to the context of the believer, compared to all the other contexts in which they could find themselves (but for none of which are they ready - not "that Day being that Day" but "that Day come upon" irrespective of other days). What I think is catching you unaware, is that it looks like the snare Jesus is talking about refers to a specific Day, when there are other obstacles that come with other "days". The point is unless you are praying always, you won't know the difference: between the snare for today and the "snare" for others (which may be pestilence, or the sword, or any kind of thing). The way in which you conflate one Day with other days, then obscures what kind of Day it is - you say "it is the day of the Lord's Return", when "Heaven and Earth pass away" where nowhere does Jesus say "I will return at precisely your worst moment" or "I will use My power to eradicate evil on that Day", if He had meant these things, He would have said them. Prayer is something that transitions us, from one moment to another, if nothing else, Jesus is saying "I want your prayer to get you from you to Me, to step over the "snares" of the world and take your place where I am, where the "snares" and those caught in them cannot reach Us". That's the goal!

It's true I take an Earthly approach to scripture, at times, at least to begin with, but I assure you that in the end I am trying to make a Heavenly point. The point here, is that in Heaven, the snare hinders no one, and believers are ready for any day (not just the Lord's Return, even!). If I was going to poke holes in this approach, I would say "it's possible you don't have time to pray" but that would not stop me praying for myself. To me, the Words of Jesus are very clear: the Day comes unexpectedly (which Jesus does not abuse), on Earth there is a snare (which is one of many hinderances) and we want to escape and stand (which means we must pray) - if you can do this, it is Mission Complete!

 

[Timtofly]

I don't know what you are saying. Sorry. You don't think He was talking about praying to escape "that day" when something will happen that affects everyone on the whole earth?

Many have escaped that day who did not pray. They are already dead.

Are you praying to be worthy, or to escape an event you cannot even define?

If one is redeemed, they will leave at the rapture. So the prayer is to be saved, not to escape a particular event. It is not talking about believers escaping, but non believers. This verse is not about the timing, but obviously all the tribulation that is escaped happens after the rapture and the Second Coming. The Second Coming cannot happen first. That would not be an escape, that would be going through something that being a believer would have prevented one to go through. So if that is considered a timing indication, the trouble and every other judgment is after the rapture and Second Coming. Only believers are worthy to escape. If one goes through this event, they won't find a Second Coming/rapture post this trouble. They will be dead, headed to the LOF.

 

[Jonatec]

Great answers, thanks!
Question is - has the "falling away" or apostacy within the body of Christ, already begun?

 

[Jonatec]

2 Thess. 2:1-3 is about the return of Jesus to earth NOT the rapture.

Yes, thanks for that. I now see that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says, "... shall be caught up together...", which presumably where we get the word "rapture" from. And 2 Thessalonians 2 talk about the return of Christ at Armageddon.

 

[Gottservant]

Great answers, thanks!
Question is - has the "falling away" or apostacy within the body of Christ, already begun?

The falling away (of the Church) is far slower, than men expect (selah)

 

[Truth7t7]

Have you looked closely to see what it is exactly that we should pray to escape? Is it things that will happen for 7 years during a future tribulation period? Or something else? Let's look at the text to find out.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

When you read this you should see that what Jesus was saying we should pray that we will be accounted worthy to escape is not literally everything He had previously talked about, which would even include earthquakes and wars and such. If that's what He meant then we have all already failed to escape it.

No, He was talking about being worthy to escape something that would "come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". That doesn't describe everything He had previously talked about. Look at what He said in verse 34. He talked about being careful to not have "that day" come upon us unexpectedly. And then, still talking about "that day", He said "as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". So, what day is it that He said we should not let come upon us unexpectedly and that we should pray to escape? The day He comes again. The day that heaven and earth pass away. That is the context of what He was talking about. He was not saying we should pray to escape anything except what comes upon the whole earth on the day He returns.

Exactly, the church is to be ready for the final hour of earth's temptation that precedes the Lord's second coming

Gods Divine protection of the Church on earth during the tribulation, the hour of earths temptation

The Church on earth is instructed to enter their dwelling, until the Lords indignation is past, just like the passover in Egypt

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Revelation 3:10KJV
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[ewq1938]

Great answers, thanks!
Question is - has the "falling away" or apostacy within the body of Christ, already begun?

No. It can only happen when the AC is here to fall away to. Everything is basically in place for this to happen including the pre-trib rapture doctrine which literally believes the Apostasy is a rapture so they are already set to do the falling away and want to.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Many have escaped that day who did not pray. They are already dead.

That is not the context of what Jesus was talking about. He was not saying to pray that you will die before it happens. LOL. The context was that we should pray to escape it if it happens while we are alive.

Are you praying to be worthy, or to escape an event you cannot even define?

Who said that I can't define it? Not me. I believe when He said "heaven and earth will pass away" He was saying it will happen on "that day" He was talking about, which is the day He will return. What will happen on that day is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. The entire surface of the earth will be burned up and in terms of unbelievers: "they will not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

If one is redeemed, they will leave at the rapture. So the prayer is to be saved, not to escape a particular event.

You always miss the context.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Look at the preceding verses. That shows the context of what He was talking about. No, the prayer was not just about being saved spiritually, The prayer was about physically escaping the physical wrath that is coming "on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". That global wrath which will accompany Christ's return is described in passages like Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

It is not talking about believers escaping, but non believers.

LOL! Why would He tell non believers to pray that they would escape? That doesn't fit the context of what He was saying at all. He wasn't talking to non believers there, He was talking to believers. You really need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7) because you misinterpret everything.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, thanks for that. I now see that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says, "... shall be caught up together...", which presumably where we get the word "rapture" from. And 2 Thessalonians 2 talk about the return of Christ at Armageddon.

This is not right. The gathering to Christ referenced in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is the same gathering to Christ referenced in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking otherwise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Great answers, thanks!
Question is - has the "falling away" or apostacy within the body of Christ, already begun?

Based on what I have seen happening in recent years, I think it may have. There is no way of knowing for certain, I suppose, but it sure seems like a good number of people are falling away from the faith and that wickedness is increasing. The increase in wickedness and the falling away go hand in hand.

 

[ScottA]

I'm not attacking anybody

You posted that men are self centered, does that include you also, looking into a mirror of your own accusations?

Your the author of a book called "Walking Like Einstein" are you not?

Jesus Is The Lord

My statement was general about all mankind. Your response was and is personal, twice. Do it again and I will indeed report you.

 

[ScottA]

Yes you deny a future literal human man as the (Man Of Sin) that will be revealed to the world proclaiming to be God, just as 2 Thessalonians 2:3-11 teaches

You also deny a future, literal, visible, coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, something you are silent on "Why"?

No, but rather, I have said that all humans (except Jesus Christ) are men of sin, and all are to be revealed...just as the scriptures say.

While you yourself leave out all of humanity except for one would-be future man of sin, against the scriptures that say that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Such a doctrine is not even biblical.

As for the coming of Jesus, He came "once for all", and appears "a second time, apart from sin, for salvation", otherwise "not by observation" in this world again-- as He said, "the world will see Me no more."

Your doctrine is full of holes, for not reconciling all that is written.

 

[Truth7t7]

My statement was general about all mankind. Your response was and is personal, twice. Do it again and I will indeed report you.

Feel free to report me, nothing I wrote is a violation of the rules

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

No, but rather, I have said that all humans (except Jesus Christ) are men of sin, and all are to be revealed...just as the scriptures say.

While you yourself leave out all of humanity except for one would-be future man of sin, against the scriptures that say that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Such a doctrine is not even biblical.

As for the coming of Jesus, He came "once for all", and appears "a second time, apart from sin, for salvation", otherwise "not by observation" in this world again-- as He said, "the world will see Me no more."

Your doctrine is full of holes, for not reconciling all that is written.

The scripture doesn't state "Men Of Sin" as you claim, it states "Man Of Sin" that is one future individual human man, who the Lord will destroy at his future, literal, visible,, second coming in the heavens

Yes you deny that a future individual human will come as the (Man Of Sin) as scripture clearly teaches below, with personal pronouns He, His, Himself

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[Truth7t7]

As for the coming of Jesus, He came "once for all", and appears "a second time, apart from sin, for salvation", otherwise "not by observation" in this world again-- as He said, "the world will see Me no more."

Jesus Christ will return "literally", and "visibly" in the heavens, just as the scripture teaches below, human eyes on this earth will witness the future literal event, "something you deny will happen"

Luke 21:27-28KJV
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Revelation 1:7KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Yes, thanks for that. I now see that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says, "... shall be caught up together...", which presumably where we get the word "rapture" from. And 2 Thessalonians 2 talk about the return of Christ at Armageddon.

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.
Hope this will be helpful with your questions:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!) * ← PG rated "Approved" *

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

* PG = Perfect God / Parental Guidance:

 

[Timtofly]

Look at the preceding verses. That shows the context of what He was talking about. No, the prayer was not just about being saved spiritually, The prayer was about physically escaping the physical wrath that is coming "on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth".

And the only way to escape the wrath is the second birth.

Why would you pray to escape the wrath, if you plan on going through it, anyway?

Are you praying to find a cave and hide out until it is over? The whole part of escape is to not be around when the wrath happens. And the works of earth being burned up is not the wrath. That is what happens, when Jesus appears on the earth, and then people wise up to the fact that there will still be the wrath to come.

LOL! Why would He tell non believers to pray that they would escape?

Because Luke 21 was in part referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. You think only believers should have fled, not unbelievers?

Unbelievers should be praying for the second birth. You seem to ignore that part of the context, and miss the whole point of escape itself. Do you think some believers are not worthy, and fell out of the second birth?

 

[ScottA]

The scripture doesn't state "Men Of Sin" as you claim, it states "Man Of Sin" that is one future individual human man, who the Lord will destroy at his future, literal, visible,, second coming in the heavens

Yes you deny that a future individual human will come as the (Man Of Sin) as scripture clearly teaches below, with personal pronouns He, His, Himself

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

You are still not getting it.

The scriptures say that "man"--meaning all mankind was created "in His image"; and also "by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous."

You're not connecting the dots, not unpacking "all" who are included in sin, or that by the same measure, "all" who are included "in Christ." The "man of sin" was and is Adam...and "all" are included, starting with Eve.