A Simple Overview of Revelation
- Thread starter Willie T
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That's called playing fast and loose with Scripture. First a false eschatology was put together (Amillennialism and Preterism), and then Scripture was turned on its head. Anything can mean anything, e.g. 1000 years (Rev 20) could mean 6000 years or whatever you choose to make it.
Now that's very "accommodating" of God (as you suggest) but it is simply not true. Prophetic visions were HEAVENLY REALITIES (even while describing events on earth) and the Holy Spirit gave the prophets and apostles the exact words to express those realities.
Well this a very slippery-sloap to be on...whether they got a revelation of the meaning of a scripture or were raised being taught such it is a strong delusion and except the Holy Spirit open their eyes they will be in danger of God's Wrath.
I pray that when a newcomer who is also a fairly new Christian comes here seeking help understanding a scripture that God will put the right people in their path.
You seem to be trying to equate a dream that was clearly interpreted in Daniel with another book that only gives picture-stories.
Revelation never says: "And what those insects represent are Huey helicopters flying in the 21st century."
However, we have multiple references relating directly back to what the rest of the OT told us about what John's visions represented in history.
The neat thing about those videos is that it is super-simple to PAUSE any of them at any time, and go look up the Scripture references he gives us right there on the screen.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
If a person believes the Revelation is symbolic, but such symbolism has a true spiritual reality and prognosis doesn't necessitate that said person "does not really believe the Bible." Such would be a shallow and false assumption.
There is much symbolic language in Scripture which has a spiritual reality and application. Such as, "if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off..." Matthew 5:30. This is symbolic and figurative, yet the meaning is clear, that without repentance there is no eternal life to be expected. It is the sanctifying process of all true believers to experience this. Note the state of true believers in Romans 6:21.
It is nice to see a poster here answer after thinking.... rather than just "reacting." You, Sir, are rare.
My point is that the Bible uses many metaphors and symbols to equate a literal event, person or thing.
The Holy Spirit uses symbols because to teach us about spiritual events He has to use things that are familiar to our understanding.
So most of the time it is presented as a comparison....example: The Word of God "is like a powerful sword", or "the tongue is like a rudder of a ship", or "Jesus will return like a flaming fire".....so IMHO it gives the reader something they can perceive in their mind.
But like I said I may be misunderstanding what the intent or meaning is being implied.
"No", I think you are right on target about what the video was saying.
Here's a simple overview of Revelation, which is to be understood as literally as any of the Gospels (unless a symbol is presented, which is also generally explicated).
Write [1] the things which thou hast seen, and [2] the things which are, and [3] the things which shall be hereafter... Blessed is [1] he that readeth, and [2] they that hear the words of this prophecy, and [3] keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Rev 1:19,3)
Write [1] the things which thou hast seen, and [2] the things which are, and [3] the things which shall be hereafter... Blessed is [1] he that readeth, and [2] they that hear the words of this prophecy, and [3] keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Rev 1:19,3)
Common sense needs to prevail. When we see descriptions of the second coming, such as "lightening from east to west" or like "flaming fire" or whatever, clearly this is metaphorical. But what it does NOT mean is that the actual second coming is metaphorical, as many suggest. So while the picture is depicted in a manner to excite our imaginations, or to inform us that the manner in which it takes place is beyond literal description so God gives us something to assimilate to, we can still believe in an actual real live event is going to take place.
Example. Babylon the Great, a symbolic representation of something/someone...is seated on many waters. In Revelation 17 we are informed by the angel what those waters represent...peoples, nations, tongues, and tribes. Thus we deduce that whatever this woman is, (not a literal woman obviously) she has authority and power over many nations and people. But unlike the waters, we don't have an angel to inform us (as in Daniel where the angel informs Daniel that the beasts represent nations/kings/empires) what the symbol represents. What we need to do therefore is got to scripture elsewhere and discover what women are used symbolically for in scripture. And we see throughout both testaments numerous texts where God likens His own people, in the OT Israel, and in the NT His church, to women. A prostitute/harlot/whore was used metaphorically to depict Israel in an idolatrous and unfaithful state. The Great whore's daughters as depicted in Revelation therefore are also churches, churches born of the woman, but ones that have also gone astray and playing the harlot. Following false gods...loving the world...thus spiritual adulterers. Thus the woman in Revelation 12, the pure one, depicts God's people who are faithful and true. Which when contextualised with the rest of scripture makes perfect sense as the true people were persecuted by the false throughout history, and 'had to flee into the wilderness'.
Our task then is to use the various details connected with the symbols to identify which church specifically is being represented here. But we must never go so far as suggest that it depicts some amorphous unreal 'spiritual' idea or concept that we must discern with 'spiritual eyes and ears'...that simply negates the whole force and purpose of God informing us in the first place. The whole thing then just turns into whatever fairy tale the reader may choose to imagine. No, the symbols are depictions of real events and characters associated with those events. And if we use scripture to interpret scripture as we should, the visions come alive and the details help us identify precisely the characters and movements that God is choosing to warn us of.
I agree with Willie...taking a symbol (locusts) and plucking the interpretation (huey helicopters) out of thin air seems to me somewhat random and outside sound Biblical exegesis.
Example. Babylon the Great, a symbolic representation of something/someone...is seated on many waters. In Revelation 17 we are informed by the angel what those waters represent...peoples, nations, tongues, and tribes. Thus we deduce that whatever this woman is, (not a literal woman obviously) she has authority and power over many nations and people. But unlike the waters, we don't have an angel to inform us (as in Daniel where the angel informs Daniel that the beasts represent nations/kings/empires) what the symbol represents. What we need to do therefore is got to scripture elsewhere and discover what women are used symbolically for in scripture. And we see throughout both testaments numerous texts where God likens His own people, in the OT Israel, and in the NT His church, to women. A prostitute/harlot/whore was used metaphorically to depict Israel in an idolatrous and unfaithful state. The Great whore's daughters as depicted in Revelation therefore are also churches, churches born of the woman, but ones that have also gone astray and playing the harlot. Following false gods...loving the world...thus spiritual adulterers. Thus the woman in Revelation 12, the pure one, depicts God's people who are faithful and true. Which when contextualised with the rest of scripture makes perfect sense as the true people were persecuted by the false throughout history, and 'had to flee into the wilderness'.
Our task then is to use the various details connected with the symbols to identify which church specifically is being represented here. But we must never go so far as suggest that it depicts some amorphous unreal 'spiritual' idea or concept that we must discern with 'spiritual eyes and ears'...that simply negates the whole force and purpose of God informing us in the first place. The whole thing then just turns into whatever fairy tale the reader may choose to imagine. No, the symbols are depictions of real events and characters associated with those events. And if we use scripture to interpret scripture as we should, the visions come alive and the details help us identify precisely the characters and movements that God is choosing to warn us of.
I agree with Willie...taking a symbol (locusts) and plucking the interpretation (huey helicopters) out of thin air seems to me somewhat random and outside sound Biblical exegesis.
Now extend that and apply that same principle to the beast the woman rides on. The woman, a false adulterous church, riding beast, a state power or nation/empire, and in this particular case, growing to prevail over the whole earth, offers us a real live active depiction of real events and characters that are unfolding before our eyes at this very moment. One may exclude Islam because Islam was never a part of the true people of God and then became unfaithful and an adulterer. Only one global 'Christian' church in the NT answers to this symbol.
The locusts in Revelation 9 are neither symbolic nor helicopters. THEY ARE DEMONIC CREATURES, and here are the reasons why:
1. The bottomless pit is reserved for demonic spirits and that is from where these apparent locusts ascend.
2. They appear as locusts but have the characteristics of scorpions.
3. They appear as horses and yet are designated as locusts.
4. They have the faces of men and are yet designated as locusts.
5. They have crowns on their heads, which locusts do not have.
6. They have hair as women, and teeth as lions.
7. They have both breastplates as warriors, and wings as angels.
8. They have tails like scorpions, and sting like scorpions
9. The king of these demonic spirits is Abbadon, or Apollyon, or the Destroyer, or Satan.
Thank you brakelite, that is really helpful X
Rita
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Further to this we can make some fairly strong conclusions based on detail that gives us a fuller picture.
The woman, this adulterous unfaithful church, is on top of the beast, presumably holding the reins and guiding the beast to do her will. In other words, the church using the state power to enforce religious statutes. This is very different from the state power controlling the church as some suggest will be the case when an individual Antichrist comes along. The whore, although an adulteress, is still a woman, a religious entity, a church. Very likely believes herself to be still God's chosen. However, it is in her very act of soliciting favour from the state power wherein is found her guilt of adultery. It is in her trust of the state, and her dependance for state support, that she reveals her unfaithfulness to Christ. And the picture depicts that in the beast supporting her... Holding her up... Without the support of the state power she would cease to function. No union of church and state can find God's approval. In the face of revelation 16-18 I seriously am astonished at Protestant America's fascination with overruling the Constitution with regards the separation of church and state. It is almost as if the Protestant church in America wants to make an image to the beast...i mean the medieval Papal church of Europe. Goodness. What have I said??!!!
101G
Well-Known Member
We agree with you, I was looking at the second tube, and he say chapter 12 is a sign that is a symbol. yes symbology of a true actual event. it's a event which is recorded in the book of Matthews chapter 2. if one just keep one hand on Revelation chapter 12 and the other on Matthews 2 you have the true account of what John is telling us in the vision.
understand, just because a vision is shown in heaven, dosn't nesseary means the event took place in heaven. but the tub is intresting as to how he is painting his picture. but I'm not the one to judge anyone. we suggest one seek the Holy Ghost gudiance on these matters. this is why I, and this is ONLY me, as we told another post the kjv is perfered, (notice only for me, my op). for it is written in plain code for all to see, yet one need the code breaker to understand the code. this is why we get many interpertation of the same one event, no knowledge, nor understand of God's Holy Word.
PICJAG.
Yeah. The picture is a pretty accurate depiction of these demonic creatures. No helicopters for sure, and certainly not a meaningless symbol for something other than demons.
Well, I can't say I know well enough what demons are supposed to look like to draw a picture of one.
Well John gave us a very detailed description, so that is what we must go by -- faces like men, hair like women, teeth like lions, bodies like horses, tails like scorpions, wings like angels, and gathered together like an army of locusts. Unless this was in the Bible, it would sound like pure fantasy. But these are creations of Satan, and he does have supernatural powers according to Scripture.
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