A World Of Masters And Slaves

[BarneyFife]

Were you raised SDA?

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No, Southern Baptist.

Adventist since 1990.
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The reason I'm asking is because it is indeed what Quiet likes to refer to as a "paradigm,"

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It is a very distinct model of historical and eschatological study, to be sure. And the papcy/beast aspect isn't even the uniquely Adventist piece of the paradigm.
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and if you adopt it as a lens through which you see everything then that may effect how much you are able to see any other.

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It's basically the working out of what Adventists call "The Great Controversy Between Christ And Satan," and it's so simple a child can understand it. It follows the universal tension between good and evil and is illustrative of the concept that there is nothing new under the sun (which reduces its intricacies to the lowest common denominator). At least, from the standpoint of Lucifer, that is, as being one who aspires to be equal with God and even to overthrow God's government. Unfortunately for him, he has no creative power in the original sense that God does. He is limited to deception and he pretty much never modifies his basic M.O.
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That's kinda how I view SDAs, if I can speak frankly, and with you I'm assuming I can.

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I certainly would appreciate it if you would. And, actually, I'm equally as confident that you will prove to be thick-skinned, as well. And it'll be a welcome variation of the status quo around here. Feel free to be as forthright as you can possibly stand.
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Because the Catholic Church is indeed destined to play an important role in the end-time scenario - one unfortunately in the service of evil - there is always evidence surfacing to this effect and will be until the end.

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Well, while I agree with you in principle, like I said, the particulars of what the pope is up to rarely make it onto my radar. Mainly because, no matter what he does in the meantime, I know exactly what he's going to do near the very end of time.
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But there are other forces at play besides just the Vatican, and this is where I see the weakness in the SDA paradigm.

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I grant you the first half of this thought without hesitation, but I'm going to risk being clichéd here and profess to be something other than your run-of-the-mill Adventist. I sit in the pews with them every Sabbath, I love them to death, and I am obligated to them in an extraordinary way, but I rarely find myself in a discussion/study situation with them where I don't feel much like a fish out of water.
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In disagreement with Brakelite, I don't think all roads still lead to Rome, any more now spiritually than they do in the literal sense. They lead to wherever Evil in very high places is now situated.

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Well, in the spirit of the expression, all roads can't lead everywhere, and I believe that is where evil in very high places is now situated since we are, after all, in the days which are as those of Noah (Genesis 6:5).

Plans are surely being made and profitable friendships forged but, to be as pragmatic as the subject/situation allows, the roads don't need to lead to Rome now. They only need to be able to be quickly laid, and as we know, things are happening exponentially more quickly all the time these days.
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Let me just give you this to think about: The Catholic Church is not the spearhead of the homosexual movement in the earth. They will join it someday and teach that it is acceptable for a Christian to be homosexual, but they are not the driving force. They will simply be along for the ride, and siding with the most powerful forces of evil, not driving it.

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Rome is already sympathetic to the gender rights cause. When the time of trouble which has never been since there was a nation finally arrives, no one is going to be concerned with social agendas. Even if the time of trouble is sociological in nature, there will be too many causes to give any one of them preference. Folks are going to become very religious practically overnight. The only thing on anyone's mind will be how to escape the acute devastation that will take the earth by overwhelming surprise.
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In short, the RCC is the whore, not the Beast, and this is where I think SDAs make their biggest mistake.

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Several centuries of prominent (although now socially insensitive and, nearly, ecclesiastically obsolete) Protestant biblical scholarship would take a different view. Women are churches and beasts are nations/kingdoms and the Vatican is both.
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She will not be the driver, she will merely be in league with more powerful evil forces in the world, and riding along in harmony with them to their inevitable destruction.

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The devil is always the driver, H.

That's extremely important for Christians to remember.

(It's quite likely that most of the eventually redeemed who call themselves Christians will have gone down to Catholic graves.)

She will be the right arm of the devil himself.

And she will, in turn, have a right arm of her own...

:)
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[BarneyFife]

and if you adopt it as a lens through which you see everything then that may effect how much you are able to see any other

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I might add that this is surely not a hazard unique to Adventists. Or even with organized, substantial religious groups, in general. DIY creeds are all the rage right now. Although I'm sure you're already aware of that.
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[Hidden In Him]

Plans are surely being made and profitable friendships forged but, to be as pragmatic as the subject/situation allows, the roads don't need to lead to Rome now. They only need to be able to be quickly laid, and as we know, things are happening exponentially more quickly all the time these days.

Here is one place where we disagree a little. I think it takes time for world empires to develop. It's one of the main reasons why I think we still have a good ways to go yet.

Rome is already sympathetic to the gender rights cause. When the time of trouble which has never been since there was a nation finally arrives, no one is going to be concerned with social agendas. Even if the time of trouble is sociological in nature, there will be too many causes to give any one of them preference. Folks are going to become very religious practically overnight.

I just don't see it. :) I know this is the SDA expectation, but I don't think the Papacy will hold religious sway over anything but those Western governments which allow it to, and even then I don't think it will be over Sunday worship so much as conformity to State laws regarding issues like homosexuality. I see the Catholic church and various Western States working together through largely political issues (as opposed to strictly religious ones) to persecute true Christians.

Several centuries of prominent (although now socially insensitive and, nearly, ecclesiastically obsolete) Protestant biblical scholarship would take a different view. Women are churches and beasts are nations/kingdoms and the Vatican is both.

The Vatican can certainly hold sway over nations and kingdoms - on that part we agree - but she isn't one herself. That's where the fabrication comes in IMO.

The devil is always the driver, H.

I mean in relation to the Beast. Revelations describes her as being carried by the Beast, which means between the two of them the Beast will be the one directing the action.

Anyway, hope you have a blessed day! Not sure what mine holds yet. If we could actually have a day without rain, I'd probably sing Hosannas to the King over it, Lol.

 

[BarneyFife]

Hi @L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d It's interesting that John's First Epistle says there are already many antichrists.

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What's interesting to me is the way you find things that cast doubt on people's convictions "interesting." :cool:

"Antichrist" simply means "in place of Christ." And the son of perdition, the mystery of lawlessness, is no ordinary antichrist.
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[BarneyFife]

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@Hidden In Him,

You're just too nice to argue with, doggone you - lol.

But just so you're up to speed on the Adventist take on how this thing is expected to play out (in case you're not already):

The time of trouble referred to in Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 is precipitated by something that causes great distress worldwide. This is likely not even scientifically feasible (but keep in mind that Satan is the prince of the powers of the air and is believed by many to be allowed to manipulate weather—he certainly had a field day with Job—and all God has to do is recall the four angels of Revelation 7:1), but picture something like a storm of gigantic lightning bolts striking a coastal mountain range, sending massive chunks of earth tumbling into the ocean (¿¿¿), which causes tidal waves to begin to deluge large coastal populations the world over.

Or just replace this particular event with any catastrophe you could imagine possibly happening, because there can be no doubt that men's hearts (are) failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken (Luke 21:26).

(Some folks really wanna see California fall off into the ocean, I hear. That would be quite a mess, I suspect.)

In the suggested scenario, over the space of a few weeks, more souls perish than in all of the wars of the 20th century combined. 1/6 of the world's population is already endeared to the bishop of Rome, and now they look to him intently for guidance in a world that is beginning to get a picture of a very angry God.

(The rest of the religious world has no iconic figurehead/leader having influence with nations who could enforce a proposed solution to the crisis—which could handily facilitate consolidation of exaction in very short order. At present, the U.S. and its allies comprise 64% of the world's total defense budget. In such a crisis, defectors from those unsympathetic to the day-to-day aims of the west would be inevitable.)

Francis, or one of his successors (it matters not) says, calmly: "I warned the world about the risks involved in failing to properly care for our common home and to relieve the plight of the poor and the outcast."

In the desperate upheaval of life on earth and the growing conviction that the God of Heaven might have run out of patience with the inhabitants thereof, the peoples of the world, pricked in their hearts, cry out to the successor of St. Peter and the rest of the apostles: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37)

The answer comes back: "You must do as I said in 2015, the truth of which was confirmed by science and basic human reason during the global rest imposed by the COVID crisis:

Sunday, like the Jewish Sabbath, is meant to be a day which heals our relationships with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world. Sunday is the day of the Resurrection, the “first day” of the new creation, whose first fruits are the Lord’s risen humanity, the pledge of the final transfiguration of all created reality. It also proclaims “man’s eternal rest in God”. In this way, Christian spirituality incorporates the value of relaxation and festivity. We tend to demean contemplative rest as something unproductive and unnecessary, but this is to do away with the very thing which is most important about work: its meaning. ... Rest opens our eyes to the larger picture and gives us renewed sensitivity to the rights of others. And so the day of rest, centered on the Eucharist, sheds its light on the whole week, and motivates us to greater concern for nature and the poor."—Laudato Si', 237

Adding further:

"We are losing our attitude of wonder, of contemplation, of listening to creation and thus we no longer manage to interpret within it what Benedict XVI calls 'the rhythm of the love-story between God and man.'"

"And so, repent, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins committed against the earth and her Creator; cease to 'demean contemplative rest as something unproductive and unnecessary,' and render the gesture of obedience to His commandment to rest on the 'day which heals our relationships with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world,' 'Sunday.'"

(To Be Continued)
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[BarneyFife]

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(Cont'd)

But this gesture of obedience proves to bring no relief to the devastation of the earth and, finally, it is discovered that a few overscrupulous outliers will not render the gesture prescribed, by reason that the world is honoring a day that God never blessed and sanctified (to which, at least 20 of the languages of the world—20% of its total population—testify - link to chart) and, in fact, is paying homage to the one who "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God"—the one who "speak(s) great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws."

...and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
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The rest of the story can be discerned plainly from Scripture, I reckon.

As can clearly be seen, in such a scenario, what little preparation that would be required to perpetuate the rise of the papacy to authority has practically already been done.

And to say that there are other viable configurations would be to state the painfully obvious.

But, as a global manifestation of legalism, this one does have the advantage of being without much diversion from the basic struggle between Christ and Satan concerning the character of God. Calvary itself was the pinnacle of that conflict so far. The second coming of Christ will be no less noble and magnificent, in my estimation.

Those who seek to save themselves by their own devising and performance will be sorely disappointed. The merits of a crucified and risen Savior, the Lord of the Sabbath only can save. The Sabbath rest is the memorial of both creation (Exodus 20:11) and redemption (Deuteronomy 5:15). Resting is ceasing from our own works (Hebrews 4:10).

I know I don't have to sell you on the legitimate spiritual utility of the Sabbath, by the way.

Sorry to belabor and drone on so. This got way more preachy than I intended. I do respect your position in this matter. But I ramble terribly. Wrangler calls it "streams of consciousness," if I remember correctly - lol. :cool:;):):

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[Hidden In Him]

In the desperate upheaval of life on earth and the growing conviction that the God of Heaven might have run out of patience with the inhabitants thereof, the peoples of the world, pricked in their hearts, cry out to the successor of St. Peter and the rest of the apostles: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37)

Hey, Barn. Sorry about the late reply.

I appreciate the heads up, but honestly I don't think most of humanity will give a rip what the successor of St. Peter says, even if things get really ugly. Christians will grow more concerned in general, but not with what he says. His voice will be important only to Catholics.

But I appreciate you sharing.

 

[Earburner]

I plant seeds in my garden. I can't see the end results until it is put in motion.
Once it begins to grow, the vegetables take form and become recognizable.
We are the seeds in God's garden. We can't see the the manifestation of what we shall become.
But once we begin to move and grow, a shape will manifest itself and you will see the kingdom of God working in real time.

You will not walk until you take up your bed and move your feet soldier.
That angel isn't coming down to the pool to move the water for you.
Peter said: LORD! Let me walk on the water with you!
Jesus said: not yet, keep waiting, I'll tell you when.
NOT.

Timing:

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time (2000 years ago) are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (2000 years ago)
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

What is this body Paul is speaking of? Is it the individual or is it the body of Christ in which we all have a role to play?

If that which we hope for ever manifests itself, is it then no longer hope?
Should we ever have an expectation of something becoming fulfilled because we will no longer need hope, but will have acheived the thing hoped for?
What will the manifestation of the sons of God look like?
Who are the sons of God?

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Have you seen the Lord? Do you know what he looks like?
Is it the flesh body of a man that we seek or the Spirit of the Lord within eachother?
Are you able to see the spirit with carnal eyes?
Either you believe you have seen him and have everlasting life, or you have never seen him and have no everlasting life.
Must one see to believe?

Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Faith can move mountains. If we have faith and we all live today as if we are residing in the very kingdom we are hoping to find,
eventually it will manifest itself before our eyes.
Where is that Faith??!!

Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will Be Done, On Earth as it is in Heaven.

It's not going to happen if we keep praying about it and don't believe that we have already received our request.

Sometimes I believe people like living in the drama. They enjoy bad news about people getting killed and raped, and about criminals getting away without justice. They enjoy it. Even so called christians who claim they can't wait to see the Kingdom of God but aren't willing to lift one damn finger to bring it about.

We get what we deserve.

Has anyone here noticed that in the KJV, the word "in" earth is used, and not "on" earth.

Matt.6[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Matt.28[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Luke.11[2] And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

2Cor.4[7] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels [our mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.