A World Of Masters And Slaves

[Randy Kluth]

Hey, Brakelite/Backlit/Brakelite2 stop changing your name, LoL.

This is the primary difference between my eschatology and SDA's. I do think mainline Christianity headed by the Catholic church will play a great part for evil in seeking to have the true saints of God murdered during the end-times, but the focus on Catholicism being the center of the Antichrist's power is incorrect, at least according to what the Spirit has been revealing. That theory was popular in centuries past, but it is becoming apparent now over the last 30 years or so in particular that Islam fits the Biblical narrative better, and Islam is actually more political than it is religious when it comes to its influence in the earth.

I couldn't sign off that the Spirit is saying all roads still lead to Rome. Will Rome play a part? Yes and a gruesome one. But what the Spirit is saying to the churches doesn't suggest that Rome will be the seat of the Antichrist's power.

You think you know what the "Spirit is saying" with regard to who the Antichrist is and where he will be located? That sounds a little bit too much for me, though it's certainly possible the Lord can show us things when He wants to.

I'm not convinced Islam has the power to rule the world at this point, and doesn't look like it ever will. Is it a major power on earth? Definitely. It's always been considered an "Antichrist" by Christianity. But in its history, its adventurism always tends to end up at the Battle of Tours.

I think there is more than ample evidence that Europe will be the heart of the Antichristian Empire. Where better to try to destroy Christianity than from within, which is where the battle has been taking place since the Enlightenment.

That and the the fact Dan 2 and 7 squarely place theh final Kingdom, opposing God's Kingdom, to be Rome. In Dan 9 Rome rises against the city and the sanctuary. In Dan 12 Michael rises to protect Israel at the same time Rome rises. Rome crucified Jesus and murdered many of the apostles. And in Dan 17 there are several tell-tale clues about what "city" the prophecy is speaking of with respect to "Mystery Babylon."

Gog rises from the Caucuses region of E. Europe, towards Asia. The Roman Church was the beginning of apostasy within the Church itself.

Islam is significant inasmuch as the OT Prophets spoke of the dangers of Israel's "neighbors." Islam is the modern equivalent of the "dangerous neighbor." But it is not, I think, powerful enough to be the Antichrist. I think we're seeing a great apostasy within traditional European Christianity, and we've seen some of the greatest Antichrists arise out of Europe, Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin.

The Beast rises out of the sea, which is more associated with Europe, than with the Middle East. I don't think you can speak for "what the Spirit is saying to the churches," except you can say this is what these churches *believe* the Spirit is saying to them.

I will say this much: The Beast will hate the Harlot, which I believe is Rome, and will burn her. And so, the Antichrist will hate the city itself within his empire called "Rome." He will likely hate the Catholic Religion, after he is done using it. Just my opinion, and 2 cents.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You think you know what the "Spirit is saying" with regard to who the Antichrist is and where he will be located? That sounds a little bit too much for me, though it's certainly possible the Lord can show us things when He wants to.

Not who he is, but at least what empire he will rule over. I kinda dread having to eventually give my full case for why I think the empire of the beast will be Islamic, as there's just too much material. But it's the manifold suggestions from scripture itself that he will be a Muslim which convince me here, not so much things being revealed just by the Spirit, though what's also being revealed in addition makes it even plainer.

I'm not convinced Islam has the power to rule the world at this point, and doesn't look like it ever will.

At the present time, no. But events currently taking place will set the stage for it to start developing.

I will say this much: The Beast will hate the Harlot, which I believe is Rome, and will burn her.

Exactly, and this is one of the telltale signs that Rome will actually not be the beast. Rome is the harlot, and the ten kings will hate her and burn her with fire, and her destruction will come in one hour, likely a reference to nuclear destruction, since even ships in the sea will "stand afar off" and behold her burning.

No ten kings would nuke the principle city of their empire. But if they are Islamic and their empire is elsewhere, however, Islam has long hated Rome and would have little problem with pulling the trigger some day if things ever came to that in a great spiritual, religious and political war for control of that part of the world.

 

[Ziggy]

May I ask you ,Ziggy, what is your denominal faith or teaching ?
No attempt to cause offense nor discredit here.
Thank you.

I don't have one.
I don't go to church, this forum is my church.
The Holy Spirit is my teacher which leads me through the word of God.

I don't understand why people can't understand what I'm saying.

If you saw someone on the side of the road in a burning car, are you going to wait for the fire engine?
We got pedophiles in the classrooms teaching our kids in kindergarten tha being boys and girls are relative.
That if they want to mutilate their bodies to fit with their ever fluid gender, no one not even pops or mom can stand in your way.
They have dragqueens reading to our kids at story hour in the libraries, while they openly flash their genetilia in their faces.
We got babies contracting monkeypox which can only be transmitted by contact with infected penis,
LET THAT SINK IN!!!!!

And you all gonna hide in your holes because your afraid you might offend somebody.
You think maybe tomorrow is the answer rather than standing up and being a voice against this evil today.

Information warfare is Spiritual warfare. They are twisting all the words making people believe that what is evil really means good.
They cast a veil of delusion over the people. Brainwashing them, making them believe the lies.

But you say, we're not angels, we're not messengers, we should just go under the fig tree and wait to be found.
I really don't give a damn what denomination anyone is. That's not important anymore.
What's important is that they are RAPING our children both physically and mentally and no one seems to care.

Do you know what grooming?

These are what real angels look like:

These angels are fighting a war against evil rising it's ugly head around our children.
But maybe we should wait for the firengine.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Exactly, and this is one of the telltale signs that Rome will actually not be the beast. Rome is the harlot, and the ten kings will hate her and burn her with fire, and her destruction will come in one hour, likely a reference to nuclear destruction, since even ships in the sea will "stand afar off" and behold her burning.

No ten kings would nuke the principle city of their empire. But if they are Islamic and their empire is elsewhere, however, Islam has long hated Rome and would have little problem with pulling the trigger some day if things ever came to that in a great spiritual, religious and political war for control of that part of the world.

This is where I think you're overlooking the history of relations between the European kings and Rome. Have you ever heard of the investiture controversy?

Napoleon later led an anti-Catholic movement, using the Church to obtain support of the French People, but keeping the Church leadership under his control. Napoleon seemed to have only contempt for the Church. It did not require the help of Islam to produce this animosity within Europe itself.

In times before this the kings of Europe constantly competed with the Pope in Rome for authority among the people. Initially, the Catholic Church reigned supreme. But ultimately, the power shifted over to the secular authorities in the States.

I go by what I see as an historical flow in history, determined by God's purposes as expressed in Scriptures. I discount modern prophecies unless they are backed by this recognizable flow in history, which of course is controlled by God and reflects as such.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This is where I think you're overlooking the history of relations between the European kings and Rome. Have you ever heard of the investiture controversy?

Napoleon later led an anti-Catholic movement, using the Church to obtain support of the French People, but keeping the Church leadership under his control. Napoleon seemed to have only contempt for the Church. It did not require the help of Islam to produce this animosity within Europe itself.

In times before this the kings of Europe constantly competed with the Pope in Rome for authority among the people. Initially, the Catholic Church reigned supreme. But ultimately, the power shifted over to the secular authorities in the States.

I go by what I see as an historical flow in history, determined by God's purposes as expressed in Scriptures. I discount modern prophecies unless they are backed by this recognizable flow in history, which of course is controlled by God and reflects as such.

Quite alright. Someday I'll present the reasons why I take a Futurist rather than Historicist view of prophecy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Quite alright. Someday I'll present the reasons why I take a Futurist rather than Historicist view of prophecy.

I don't take the historicist view of prophecy, though I do believe some biblical prophecies have already been historically fulfilled. I don't believe eschatological prophecies were fulfilled in history. Only prophecies meant to be fulfilled in history were fulfilled in history.

But eschatological prophecies were meant to be fulfilled in the Eschaton. The Kingdom has not come in history. It comes at the end. I don't believe THE Antichrist has already come in history. He comes at the end of history.

However, John said there arise many Antichrists throughout history. And so, we've been able to identify them in history as Mohammad, some false Popes, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, etc. There have been a lot of them!

But the Antichrist mentioned in the book of Revelation appears in the end of the present age, and reigns during the final 3.5 years of the age, followed only by a short time in which troops from Asia mobilize to Israel. Armageddon is future, and did not take place in history.

 

[Ziggy]

Where is Christianity as opposed to Judaism prophesied of in the OT?
Thank you

 

[Randy Kluth]

Where is Christianity as opposed to Judaism prophesied of in the OT?
Thank you

Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Paul speaks of the international Church as a "mystery" in the OT. That's because Israel was initially warned to disassociate themselves from the pagan nations. How could pagan nations partake in the revelation of God Israel had?

Paul argues that grace comes to the nations the same way it comes to Israel, through the love and purposes of God. God promised Abraham a greater fatherhood than just fathering the nation Israel. His faith was to be expressed in many nations.

Obviously, that meant pagan nations would convert to faith in God, just as Abraham had begun a heritage of faith out of Ur of the Chaldees. The Law was subtly given to Israel as a hint that the nations also would be cleansed of their sins through repentance.

When it would happen Paul called "the fulness of time," or the opportune time when Christ would come and finally deal with sin in a more comprehensive way. Instead of just temporary forgiveness Christ would bring eternal forgiveness through the resurrection.

This is when God chose to open the door up for international salvation. Israel's temporary salvation was just the beginning process, the initial model of what God planned to do.

 

[Taken]

A World Of Masters And Slaves
OP ^

SPOT ON!!


In the days of Adam, his son, Seth, Seth’s son Enos, was the days men began to call on the name of the Lord.
(Gen 4:6)

Moving along to Samuels days, he aging, and Godly teaching to be passed down to Samuels son... OOPS...

Samuel’s sons “influenced” by Gentile kings and people’s thereof subjects of the king.

Who needs a Heavenly King governing over the life of men, when the Gentiles have uppity ROYAL kings, to dictate, to see, to bow down to? Oooh, how grand! Ugh.

Samuel disturbed by such notion, prays for Gods Guidance.
(Samuel 1:8)

Gods Warning, Gods reassurance no blame to Samuel, Gods same Justice as He is, Give the people what they Choose.

Ain’t pretty, picking earthly men to rule over you, rather than choosing God to rule over you.

We APPEAR pretty much STUCK with endless parades of men “ruling” over men, in well oiled machine strings of numerous “WEB” government” Jurisdictions, Branches, Offices. (That goes disgustingly on and on and on.)

Individuals can bend, yield, bow, exalt, to acquiescing to their every mans “supposed dictation”, and they BE your MASTER,
(And seriously IF you listen carefully, there is not ONE aspect of an individuals Life they do not “presume they are prohibited from overseeing”....)

OR...As Gods Word Says...
Josh 24:
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[farouk]

A World Of Masters And Slaves
OP ^

SPOT ON!!


In the days of Adam, his son, Seth, Seth’s son Enos, was the days men began to call on the name of the Lord.
(Gen 4:6)

Moving along to Samuels days, he aging, and Godly teaching to be passed down to Samuels son... OOPS...

Samuel’s sons “influenced” by Gentile kings and people’s thereof subjects of the king.

Who needs a Heavenly King governing over the life of men, when the Gentiles have uppity ROYAL kings, to dictate, to see, to bow down to? Oooh, how grand! Ugh.

Samuel disturbed by such notion, prays for Gods Guidance.
(Samuel 1:8)

Gods Warning, Gods reassurance no blame to Samuel, Gods same Justice as He is, Give the people what they Choose.

Ain’t pretty, picking earthly men to rule over you, rather than choosing God to rule over you.

We APPEAR pretty much STUCK with endless parades of men “ruling” over men, in well oiled machine strings of numerous “WEB” government” Jurisdictions, Branches, Offices. (That goes disgustingly on and on and on.)

Individuals can bend, yield, bow, exalt, to acquiescing to their every mans “supposed dictation”, and they BE your MASTER,
(And seriously IF you listen carefully, there is not ONE aspect of an individuals Life they do not “presume they are prohibited from overseeing”....)

OR...As Gods Word Says...
Josh 24:
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Glory to God,
Taken

@Taken Great verse from Joshua 24 there..............

 

[Taken]

I'm also Postrib. My own thoughts--pure speculation--is that Antichrist's persecution of Christians will be centered in Europe, and not world-wide.

Evil spirits and Wicked men have been persecuting Mankind through Tribulations since the beginning.

Did you KNOW, the Great Tribulation always refers to Gods Tribulations he sends down from Heaven, intended to Suffer the people who have rejected Him?

There was the First, (the flood), and Shall be one more, the Last.
If you recall the first, FEW were saved FROM the suffering of the inhabitants upon the Earth.

Nothing new under the son. What was shall be again.
The Last Tribulation is a repeated manner.
FEW will be saved FROM the suffering upon the Earth.
Inhabitants upon the Earth shall suffer, for the same reason as during the Flood....Rejecting the Lord God.

If you studied the Days of the First Tribulation, you would find, Noah was saved by being Lifted Up off the face of the Earth...Not being left on the Earth hoping for a life raft to appear.

Just saying, consider what Scripture reveals.

 

[farouk]

Evil spirits and Wicked men have been persecuting Mankind through Tribulations since the beginning.

Did you KNOW, the Great Tribulation always refers to Gods Tribulations he sends down from Heaven, intended to Suffer the people who have rejected Him?

There was the First, (the flood), and Shall be one more, the Last.
If you recall the first, FEW were saved FROM the suffering of the inhabitants upon the Earth.

Nothing new under the son. What was shall be again.
The Last Tribulation is a repeated manner.
FEW will be saved FROM the suffering upon the Earth.
Inhabitants upon the Earth shall suffer, for the same reason as during the Flood....Rejecting the Lord God.

If you studied the Days of the First Tribulation, you would find, Noah was saved by being Lifted Up off the face of the Earth...Not being left on the Earth hoping for a life raft to appear.

Just saying, consider what Scripture reveals.

@Taken I think it's interesting that John 16.33 indicates that the Lord Jesus has overcome the world in which we shall have tribulation................. (this is the tribulation principle......)

 

[Taken]

@Taken Great verse from Joshua 24 there..............

A favorite verse of mine.
Sort of like, (in elementary terms even little kids can grasp),
whose sandbox do you want to play in...whose train do you want to hop aboard...

 

[farouk]

A favorite verse of mine.
Sort of like, (in elementary terms even little kids can grasp),
whose sandbox do you want to play in...whose train do you want to hop aboard...

@Taken Another similar idea is found in John 14.6 as regards the Lord Jesus as The Way.

 

[Taken]

@Taken I think it's interesting that John 16.33 indicates that the Lord Jesus has overcome the world in which we shall have tribulation................. (this is the tribulation principle......)

Yes sir...He has Overcome...and Hallelujah those IN Christ ALSO have Overcome.

Amen!

(Pretty sad, and disturbing some men Have Jesus on their lips but heartily promote dis- trusting His Salvation.)

 

[farouk]

Yes sir...He has Overcome...and Hallelujah those IN Christ ALSO have Overcome.

Amen!

(Pretty sad, and disturbing some men Have Jesus on their lips but heartily promote dis- trusting His Salvation.)

@Taken I love the victory verse also in 1 Corinthians 15.57....and verse 58 about abounding steadfastly in the work of the Lord follows on logically.....

 

[Ziggy]

Jericho, Justified/UnJustified?

Num 33:50 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,
Num 33:51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan;
Num 33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
Num 33:53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.
Num 33:54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit.
Num 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
Num 33:56 Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them.

 

[Taken]

@Taken I love the victory verse also in 1 Corinthians 15.57....and verse 58 about abounding steadfastly in the work of the Lord follows on logically.....

I love those verses also.
Have to say, I shy away from paralleling Scripture with Logic, (that is derived from a mans Mind of what makes sense.)

We can see the umpteen “logically deduced conclusions” of men regarding “works”...and the disagreements abound.

I favor these verses;

John 6
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Pretty straight forward question and answer.

 

[farouk]

I love those verses also.
Have to say, I shy away from paralleling Scripture with Logic, (that is derived from a mans Mind of what makes sense.)

We can see the umpteen “logically deduced conclusions” of men regarding “works”...and the disagreements abound.

I favor these verses;

John 6
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Pretty straight forward question and answer.

I take your point, @Taken . This is why I do slightly shy away from systematic theology because what matters is whether propositions are based on Scripture rather than on whether one follows on logically from another.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Sorry @Ziggy
My INHERITANCE is NOT here nor of this world. My hope is in the PROMISES God has made to us concerning our future glorification and immortality.

Heaven nor hell are here on the earth and we can not make it so nor does the word say such!

Yes this world is evil and corrupted bc ppl reject God. Everyone wants to be right in their own eyes with their sin validated and it is done by many in government, churches, businesses, families but WHAT GOD CALLS SIN REMAINS SO AND HAS A WAGE THAT WILL BE PAID BY THOSE WHO REJECT HIS CALL TO TRUTH !