Abiding In Christ Necessary for Eternal Life

[marks]

Yes, "He is at work in us", but the very same verse states "obey"--it's not one or the other, it's both--"keep yourselves in the love of God".

Which verse do you mean?

Regarding Judes statement, Keep yourself in the love of God . . . do you suppose that to not keep yourself in the love of God = to lose eternal life?

Jude 1:20-21 KJV
20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21) Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

What does he say here about keeping yourself in God's love? . . . looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . unto eternal life.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Which verse do you mean?

Regarding Judes statement, Keep yourself in the love of God . . . do you suppose that to not keep yourself in the love of God = to lose eternal life?

Jude 1:20-21 KJV
20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21) Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

What does he say here about keeping yourself in God's love? . . . looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . unto eternal life.

Much love!

Php 2:12,13

Jude says to keep yourself in the love of God--meaning that a) God doesn't do it all, we have our part, contrary to what you had asserted, and b) some do not, just as I have already pointed out (1 Jn 2:28).

 

[marks]

Yes, I do--and "we" and "you" and "our" are all phrases that apply to those who are abiding in Christ by keeping His commands

No, that's not the passage.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This passage opens with a condition. If the condition is true for you, the passage applies to you. The condition is not "if you abide", it's "if you then be risen with Christ". "Risen" is a Aorist (simple past tense) in the passive voice - done to you.

The condition is followed by a series of imperatives - command voice - seek things above, set your affections on things above. Following is the declarative, "for you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." "For", "for you are dead", shows this continues under the same condition, if you were raised with Christ. Continuing in the declarative, "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye alos appear with Him in glory.

So if the condition is true of you, "if you then be risen with Christ", then the rest is true of you also, ". . . shall appear with Him in glory". There are no other conditions given.

This is a straightfoward reading of a straightforward passage, and I maintain that we shouldn't modify it's saying because of how we understand another or many other passages. We need to be able to accept the sayings of Scripture without any "mental modification", such as that "it says, if you be risen with Christ", but I just know that there are other conditions as well."

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

This is how, for me, it's not academic, it's ultimately practical.

If you think that you must ____________ or do ____________ (excepting believing in Jesus) to be saved or remain saved, then you put yourself into a legalism of some kind, whether it be the OT Law, or making a "Law" from the NT, or using your conscience, whatever it may be. Living in a legalistic system triggers the flesh, and actually empowers the flesh. So life will be more difficult.

There are those who believe that if we commit a sin, we've become separated from God, which follows in this legalism path. We must not sin/lose faith/_______ or we will again be lost. Because sin separates us from God. I'm not saying it does, only, that's the thinking.

However, passages like 1 John 3:1-3, we know we will be like him when we see him, everyone who has this hope purifies himself even as Jesus is pure, this assures me that's not going to happen, because if I've been born again now, I'll see him then. Again, that's the plain straightforward, unambiguous saying of this passage. This is what John wrote, and I believe his words were inspired by God, and I believe what God is telling me.

And there is no passage whatsoever which overturns this simple statement of truth.

Much love!

I really wish I could just ignore Scripture and just be an Orthodox or a Catholic--or a Calvinist, like you--all of those people can know God, and there is a real practical value to all of those beliefs, but I don't fit in with anyone because I'm trying to affirm ALL of Scripture, and NONE of the extra human interpolation.

 

[GracePeace]

No, that's not the passage.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This passage opens with a condition. If the condition is true for you, the passage applies to you. The condition is not "if you abide", it's "if you then be risen with Christ". "Risen" is a Aorist (simple past tense) in the passive voice - done to you.

The condition is followed by a series of imperatives - command voice - seek things above, set your affections on things above. Following is the declarative, "for you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." "For", "for you are dead", shows this continues under the same condition, if you were raised with Christ. Continuing in the declarative, "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye alos appear with Him in glory.

So if the condition is true of you, "if you then be risen with Christ", then the rest is true of you also, ". . . shall appear with Him in glory". There are no other conditions given.

This is a straightfoward reading of a straightforward passage, and I maintain that we shouldn't modify it's saying because of how we understand another or many other passages. We need to be able to accept the sayings of Scripture without any "mental modification", such as that "it says, if you be risen with Christ", but I just know that there are other conditions as well."

Much love!

Yes, I know what the language says--it addresses those who are "in Christ", and it doesn't apply to a person who does not continue to abide in Christ, which is what this thread is about.

 

[marks]

Php 2:12,13

Jude says to keep yourself in the love of God--meaning that a) God doesn't do it all, we have our part, contrary to what you had asserted, and b) some do not, just as I have already pointed out (1 Jn 2:28).

Are we saying to keep ourselves in His love, or keep ourselves saved? Because Jude said to keep ourselves in His love. Have you had seasons in life where you haven't experienced His love? I have. But I've found a sure remedy! It's reminding my self that Jesus is coming with mercy unto eternal life. And I'm right back in the river of love!

That's another reason I like a good discourse with a brother, I'm reminded of many good things!

If "keep yourself in the love of God" = "keep yourself saved" then not only are we making an equivalency that's not actually stated anywhere, as far as I can remember, that equivalency puts it in contradiction with these passages I've been posting.

Really, for me to feel like I've got ahold of what a passage is saying, every word needs to be accounted for, that I'm not skipping over anything, that I'm accepting each word exactly as written.

I don't say these things to make commentary on anyone except me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I really wish I could just ignore Scripture and just be an Orthodox or a Catholic--or a Calvinist, like you--all of those people can know God, and there is a real practical value to all of those beliefs, but I don't fit in with anyone because I'm trying to affirm ALL of Scripture, and NONE of the extra human interpolation.

A calvinist like me? If all calvinists were like me, there wouldn't be calvinism.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Are we saying to keep ourselves in His love, or keep ourselves saved? Because Jude said to keep ourselves in His love. Have you had seasons in life where you having experienced His love? I have. But I've found a sure remedy! It's reminding my self that Jesus is coming with mercy unto eternal life. And I'm right back in the river of love!

That's another reason I like a good discourse with a brother, I'm reminded of many good things!

If "keep yourself in the love of God" = "keep yourself saved" then not only are we making an equivalency that's not actually stated anywhere, as far as I can remember, that equivalency puts it in contradiction with these passages I've been posting.

Really, for me to feel like I've got ahold of what a passage is saying, every word needs to be accounted for, that I'm not skipping over anything, that I'm accepting each word exactly as written.

I don't say these things to make commentary on anyone except me.

Much love!

Loving God is the greatest command, and "only keeping God's commands matters" (1 Co 7:19).
Anyone who doesn't love God is "accursed" (1 Co 16:22).
So, you can have a "salvation" where you're "accursed"? Keep it, I don't want it.

 

[GracePeace]

A calvinist like me? If all calvinists were like me, there wouldn't be calvinism.

Much love!

Well, everything I've seen you say so far has aligned perfectly with Calvinism.
Maybe if we keep on talking you'll say something that isn't in keeping with it.
The point is I am seeing things in the Bible that I cannot ignore.

 

[marks]

Yes, I know what the language says--it addresses those who are "in Christ", and it doesn't apply to a person who does not continue to abide in Christ, which is what this thread is about.

It addresses those who have been raised with Christ, with no other conditions.

I don't know what else to say.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

It addresses those who have been raised with Christ, with no other conditions.

I don't know what else to say.

Much love!

Yes, it does--and those who fall away have retroactively never been raised with Christ.

 

[marks]

Loving God is the greatest command, and "only keeping God's commands matters" (1 Co 7:19).
Anyone who doesn't love God is "accursed" (1 Co 16:22).
So, you can have a "salvation" where you're "accursed"? Keep it, I don't want it.

Keep yourself in the love of God = loving God?

Praying now . . .

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

It addresses those who have been raised with Christ, with no other conditions.

I don't know what else to say.

Much love!

So, "Because the passage I cited doesn't teach all doctrines, no other doctrines exist, or interact with this passage"?

 

[GracePeace]

Keep yourself in the love of God = loving God?

Praying now . . .

Much love!

#1 The point was that God didn't do it all, it's not all "passive", as you had asserted.
#2 Receiving God's love for us results in our love for God.

 

[marks]

Yes, it does--and those who fall away have retroactively never been raised with Christ.

That seems to me to be a way to undo the saying of that passage. I'm not comfortable with interpretations that are so plainly contradicted. I cannot accept them I realize you don't see it that way. We've reach impasse several times now in this exact same way.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

That seems to me to be a way to undo the saying of that passage. I'm not comfortable with interpretations that are so plainly contradicted. I cannot accept them I realize you don't see it that way. We've reach impasse several times now in this exact same way.

Much love!

Same here. I see your reading as having substantial practical value but as being inaccurate.

 

[marks]

So, "Because the passage I cited doesn't teach all doctrines, no other doctrines exist, or interact with this passage"?

No, but the passage says a certain thing. And all the rest of Scripture will harmonize with, and not negate, that certain thing.

In this case, a simple conditional statement. If you are raised with Christ . . . you shall appear with Him in glory". That is one of the plain sayings of this passage.

You've asserted that you can be "unraised" to the effect that it never happened, and therefore will no longer - I mean you won't ever have - qualified for this promise. What is the value of the promise? What is the real meaning of the passage?

If you've been raised with Christ, maybe you will appear with Him in glory, and maybe you won't.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

There is but one condition given, and no other passage if Scripture, if correctly understood, will negate these words.

If you think this is mis-translated, and that it actually should say something different, we can look at that. I have a number of times. Personally I have no issues with the translation. But if you think it is correctly translated, and this is what it says, well, I believe what it says.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Same here. I see your reading as having substantial practical value but as being inaccurate.

Be specific to show me where my reading is inaccurate. I implore you to. Show me the wording I'm getting wrong. I'm fully prepared to dive deep.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

No, but the passage says a certain thing. And all the rest of Scripture will harmonize with, and not negate, that certain thing.

In this case, a simple conditional statement. If you are raised with Christ . . . you shall appear with Him in glory". That is one of the plain sayings of this passage.

You've asserted that you can be "unraised" to the effect that it never happened, and therefore will no longer - I mean you won't ever have - qualified for this promise. What is the value of the promise? What is the real meaning of the passage?

If you've been raised with Christ, maybe you will appear with Him in glory, and maybe you won't.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

There is but one condition given, and no other passage if Scripture, if correctly understood, will negate these words.

If you think this is mis-translated, and that it actually should say something different, we can look at that. I have a number of times. Personally I have no issues with the translation. But if you think it is correctly translated, and this is what it says, well, I believe what it says.

Much love!

Lots of verses say lots of things, and all of those things have to be harmonized--and the evidence is either satisfactory or unsatisfactory for this or that case depending on the person .

 

[marks]

You all raise so many verses after your initial verses have been debunked.

Debunked? Are we adversaries? Which verses have I posted that don't say what I've claimed they say?

Much love!