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Abortion ?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by twinc, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello Nancy,

    Thank you for your question.

    It is not a matter of conception, but of being in Adam. In Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.(1 Cor.15:22).
    At the moment I am thinking of the illustration of Jacob and Esau, found in Rom 9:11 relating to election, '(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ' For I believe that it is not a matter of individual sin, but of SIN itself. Christ became sin for us, Who knew no sin, (2 Cor. 5:21) 'that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him'.

    They are still flesh. Hebrews 2:14 tells us that Christ took upon Himself flesh and blood that He may destroy the works of the Devil that is death, for mankind is flesh and blood and therefore subject to death, because sin entered and death by sin.

    I hope I am making sense to you.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  2. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Any procedure or "induced expulsion" of a fetus that prematurely ends the pregnancy of a woman with no medical reason (i.e. to save the life of the mother) to do so.

    Mary
     
  3. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I see what you are saying now. I don't care about the politicians and their laws. I care about scripture.

    If I tell someone that stealing is wrong and they need to repent I am not condemning them.

    If I tell someone that aborting a living child is wrong and they need to repent I am not condemning them.

    They condemn themselves if they don't repent.

    MaryEgo
     
  4. Triumph1300

    Triumph1300 Well-Known Member

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    MaryEgo???
     
  5. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I do not condemn moms, ever
    I love lives always
    I open my life to adoption always
     
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  6. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but I might point out that, Esau was actually born, and lived into adulthood. He made his choices, to his own detriment... An unborn child does not have that choice to make...I do understand original sin, but cannot apply it to an unborn child as, they were never brought to term and became born into the sin of Adam. It's not really important I suppose. Just a thought...♥
     
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  7. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    I’m sorry my sister but this is not how the scriptures say things will go, God is not going to judge anyone until they have had a full opportunity to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    God does not propose to save men on account of ignorance, but "will have all men to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4); and since the masses of mankind have died in ignorance; and since "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave" (Eccl. 9:10); therefore God has prepared for the awakening of the dead, in order that they might obtain knowledge, faith and salvation. Hence his plan is, that "as all in Adam die, even so all in Christ shall be made alive, but each one in his own order"--the Gospel Church, the Bride, the body of Christ, first, and then afterward, during the Millennial age, all who shall become his during the Mediatorial reign, the Lord's due time for all to know him, from the least to the greatest. 1 Cor 15:22

    As death came by the first Adam, so life comes by Christ, the second Adam (1 Cor 15:45). Everything that mankind lost through being in the first Adam is to be restored to those who believe into the second Adam. When awakened, with the advantage of experience with evil, which Adam lacked those who thankfully accept the redemption as God's gift may continue to live everlastingly on the original condition of obedience. Perfect obedience will be required, and perfect ability to obey will be given, under the righteous reign of the Prince of Peace. Here is the salvation offered to the world.

    Let us now consider another text, which is generally ignored except by Universalists; for, although we are not Universalists, we claim the right to use, and believe, and rejoice in, every testimony of God's Word. It reads,

    "We trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe." (1 Tim. 4:10) God will save all men, but will not especially ("to the uttermost") save any except those who come unto him through Christ. God's arbitrary salvation of all men (1 Tim 2:4) is not such as will conflict with their freedom of will, or their liberty of choice, to give them life against their wills: "I have set before you, this day, life and death; choose life, that ye may live."

    We see, then, that the general salvation, which will come to every individual, consists of light (truth) from the true light, and an opportunity to choose life; and, as the great majority of the race is in the tomb, it will be necessary to bring them forth from the grave in order to testify to them the good tidings of a Savior; also that the special salvation which believers now enjoy in hope (Rom. 8:24), and the reality of which will, in the Millennial age, be revealed, also, to those who "believe in that day," is a full release from the thralldom of sin, and the corruption of death, into the glorious liberty of children of God. But attainment to all these blessings will depend upon hearty compliance with the laws of Christ's Kingdom--the rapidity of the attainment to perfection indicating the degree of love for the King and for his law of love.

    If however any, enlightened by the Truth, and brought to a knowledge of the love of God, and restored (either actually or reckoned) to human perfection, become "fearful," and "draw back" (Heb. 10:38, 39), they, with the unbelievers (Rev. 21:8), will be destroyed from among the people. (Acts 3:23) This is the second death.

    Thus we see that all these hitherto difficult texts are explained by the statement--"to be testified in due time." In due time that true light shall lighten every man that has come into the world. In due time, it shall be "good tidings of great joy to all people." And in no other way can these scriptures be used without wresting. Paul carries out this line of argument with emphasis in Rom. 5:18, 19. He reasons that, as all men were condemned to death because of Adam's transgression, so also, Christ's righteousness, and obedience even unto death, have become a ground of justification; and that, as all lost life in the first Adam, so all, aside from personal demerit, may receive life by accepting the second Adam.

    This salvation includes all those poor aborted children, each and every one of them is covered under the ransom sacrifice of Christ, and each and every one of them must be given the same opportunity as everyone else to “come to the knowledge of the truth”, a personal knowledge, that they themselves might chose life and live.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
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  8. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello again, Nancy,

    I see what you are saying, but is it not a matter of 'standing', of the standing of mankind before God, outside of Christ, regardless of 'state', manner of life or personal choices.

    As one who is saved by grace, my 'standing' before God is one of absolute acceptance, the sacrificial offering of Christ has reconciled me to God, regardless of my state, re. manner of life or personal choices.

    The unborn child draws sustenance and life through the Body mechanisms of the Mother's body. It is oxygenated and fed via the Mother's lungs, heart, and bodily function, but it is a living being. It feels, hears, and responds to the stimulation it receives via it's sensory organs. It's Mother breathes in the breath of life which it shares, so surely it is a living soul.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    TULIP represents Five Point Calvinism, which is the incorrect interpretation of the Gospel within the Reformed Churches.

    T = Total Depravity
    U = Unconditional Election
    L = Limited Atonement
    I = Irresistible Grace
    P = Perseverance of the Saints
     
  10. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, Enoch111,

    Now I need to search and see what each one means in theory and practice.

    With love in Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  11. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello Harvest 1874,

    I thank you for responding with grace, and for taking the time to lay out an informed response, that I can consider with an open Bible and a willing heart.

    At my initial reading I do not see a conflict here between our two viewpoints. I will print your post and consider it prayerfully offline.

    With love in Christ Jesus.
    Chris
     
  12. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    @aspen asked me to change my name so I did.....for fun and only for a short time.

    I asked him to change his to Cooper: http://trolls.wikia.com/wiki/Cooper

    I don’t think he will. It would put a smile on my face if he did it in at least one post.

    All in Fun.....Mary
     
  13. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    If a dad kills their child after it is born would you condemn him?

    Curious MaryEgo
     
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  14. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes, I know all about the 5 points. We have been over and over them on here and...it never turns out to be a "nice" discussion, lol.
     
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  15. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    Agree!! :)
    A good one to side-step.
     
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  16. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Indeed!!! Lol..
     
  17. Frank Lee

    Frank Lee Well-Known Member

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    The simplest most straightforward things of the bible are complicated by natural man analysis beyond all recognition.

    It's called the STAG WSC effect. Jesus first stated it. Straining at gnats while swallowing camels syndrome.

    For adults or babies to be absent from the body is to be (drum roll and fanfare) present with the Lord!
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2018
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  18. TheHolyBookEnds

    TheHolyBookEnds Well-Known Member

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    Ok. 'Abortion' as defined by your reply, would be classified as murder, scripturally (Exo. 20:13), and the 'woman' along with the ones doing the 'procedure' (terribly dry name for a cruel and violent action) would be 'accomplices or participants' to homicide and should be charged with murder, and the scene canvassed as a crime scene, the 'participants' as suspects, and prosecuted under due process of law. The penalty, if found guilty by jury (with two witnesses minimum), is death (by state execution that very day).

    So you accept medical reasons? Most 'Catholics' I have spoken with do not.

    Is the only 'medical reason' 'to save the life of the mother', or is there any other reasons that would/could also apply? (not attacking the position, since I agree with you, just asking if that is the only reason or if there are others (for instance, some might include malformed child))
     
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  19. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    He would condemn himself as a murderer. No one else needs to do so. Then the so-called justice system would have to take over.
     
  20. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    'We are confident, I say,
    and willing rather
    to be absent from the body,
    and to be present with the Lord.'

    (2 Cor. 5:8)

    With respect to you, @Frank Lee, your understanding of that verse needs to be reconsidered in the light of the context in which it comes, for Paul had no desire to be 'unclothed' by death, but to be 'present' with the Lord; and that could not be achieved except by the return of the risen Christ, which was the expectation of believers during that period. He desired that his body to be clothed upon by life, resurrection life: immortality instead of mortality, incorruption instead of corruption (1 Cor.15). It has nothing to do with dying and going to be with the Lord immediately: but about passing from the mortal state into immortality by the change that will be brought about by resurrection power, 'in the twinkling of an eye' (1 Cor.15:52).

    * To pursue this subject will derail the subject of the thread, which is, 'Abortion', so I will not continue.

    Thank you for your patience.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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