I agree. Anypone who is to be saved must come to Jesus by faith. but remember the New covenant has not gone into effect yet. The New Covenant is a covenant specifically for Israel. We gentiles just benefit from it, but it is not made for us. Jer. 31:31-34
I ran into this issue quite some time ago. And I came to the conclusion that the New Testament calls our system the NT system! We are, as Christians, indeed under the NT system. What Jesus did on the cross was the initiation of the New Covenant.
So how do we reconcile the fact that Jeremiah prophesied the New Covenant will take effect for Israel at their national salvation, ie at the 2nd Coming of Christ? I came to realize that Jeremiah was only prophesying when the *nation* of Israel would be converted--not when the NT system would actually be initiated in history. The NT was initiated at the cross of Christ. But the Jewish nation will only be converted when Christ comes back to judge that nation one final time in the most comprehensive way.
Agreed! the last three days are when the nation has the veil removed and they receive Jesus and cry out blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord, thus causing Jesus to return.
I actually believe the nation will repent *after* Christ returns. But yes, someone has to say, "Blessed is he who comes." So perhaps that is the remnant of Jewish believers in Christ who prepare the way for Israel's national salvation?
also Ez. 20:33-38 shows God purging out the rebels and Zech 12:8-9 shows that teh tribulation kills 2/3 of all Jews.
True.
The gospel has gone out to all nations- right now the gospel is being heard in over 160 nations simultaneously. God never said gentile nations would gain a favored status. Blessed Status? yes! but God is no respecter of nations.
Gentile nations are getting the same treatment Israel got before Christ came and after he came. Nations can become "godly nations," although I don't believe they can ever be perfect in an age of sin. Ultimately, nations do turn away from faith, if not in their Constitution, certainly in their practice.
The world has no "christian nations anymore. America was one of the best but we are more pagan than the Hittites, Peruzites, Caananites, Amelkites etc. We are the world center for porn, we have murdered over 55,000,000 children, we have legalized drugs, divorce and child abuse are rampant. America is a nation under judgment. but if we are living in the last days we know that nations will move further away from god, not closer.
I completely agree.
But it matters not what the political and military climate was when God spoke through the prophets. god is not bound by circumstance. If he says He will do something, then He will do something. Period! God has made explicit promises to the physical nation and people of Israel. If you like I can manyh of the over hundred promises of Israel's superiority as a nation in the millenial kingdom.
I know all of the promises given to Israel, that they should be a nation dedicated to God and delivered from pagan nations. That same truth is applied to *all* the nations promised to Abraham. God is not ethnocentric, and wasn't so even in the OT period. Israel was exclusive only because the rest of the world was pagan--not because Israel was favored over all other nations.
so be it then. It is sad for this is the most scholarly and biblically based defense. I did not become a pre tribber until the 80's myself. I held to covenant theology up to that point.
Well, I was raised in the Lutheran Church, which was covenant theology. So I have no animosity towards it. But like you, I became a Premillennial Futurist. However, when I memorized 2 Thessalonians, I departed from Dispensationalism, while retaining Premillennial Futurism.
I think there is a problem when we adopt a particular theological "school." We can pick a particular school, but should question each point held in that school. The school can be right, and yet be wrong on a number of points.
For example, I am of the Premillennial Futurist school, but disagree on Dispensationalism. And I also disagree with Preterism. As wrong as I think the Preterist school is, they are right, I believe, on the point that the Olivet Discourse was focused primarily on the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. Most all Futurists today, Dispensational or not, reject the Preterist-like view that the Olivet Discourse was focused on the 70 AD Jewish judgment. They view the Abomination of Desolation as the future Antichrist.
But the Church Fathers held to the Preterist-like view that the Olivet Discourse was largely fulfilled in the history of Jerusalem's fall in 70 AD. The AoD was the Roman Army, or something associated with that time period. The point is, we need to not just join schools, but we need to also check every point to see if it's truly biblical.
It does exist, but if you refuse to see it that is your problem not the theology. there is also a covenant theology. I disagree with it in its eschatology, but I can say it exists. But I should have said a pre- trib doctrine and it most certainly does, if one takes the bible literally instead of allegorically.
Again, there is *no* literal Pretrib Theology in the Bible. It is not *explicitly* stated--it is *allegorically* proven. This is not, in my view, a legitimate form of interpreting Scriptures.
that is straining at gnats. the trumpets and bowels affect the whole world! they do not skip the believers on the planet during the trib. The only plague that believers do not experience is the "locusts" that ascend from the abyss.
Brother, a lot of Christians have died in epic world judgments that were designed to punish unbelievers. We are victims of "friendly fire," if you will. We are "unfortunate casualties.
As I said, Jesus took shots for all of us. Jeremiah took shots for Israel during the time of God's wrath against them. This was more than persecution--it is sharing in the world conditions in which God is judging the world.
We are not the targets of His wrath, but unfortunately, we share the world with unbelievers and pagans, and experience the same tragic circumstances with them. When there is an earthquake, all suffer. When there is a storm, we all suffer.
God can protect us to some degree. But the righteous do indeed suffer in these episodes, not due to any fault of their own. It is not a matter of their sharing *God's wrath* with pagans. Rather, it is a matter of sharing the *same world* with pagans, and having to suffer the consequences of their behavior, as well.
When an unethical industrial company pours pollution into our rivers and lakes, we all suffer, where only they are to blame--not us. We are not suffering punishment for our own deeds, but we are suffering only because we share the same environment with the polluters. How can you not understand this? This has nothing to do with "straining at gnats!"
And the being kept in the world is not about teh specific wrath of God during the great tribulation period, but the general wrath believers will face for being believers. That is the wrath of man and the devil not God.
That is your assumption--not mine. It was a general statement by Jesus that believers are "kept." I think that's true whether today or in the last days. Being "kept" has to do with keeping our eternal salvation, and is not about being exempt from suffering.
No Jewish believer died in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. When Titus set up the siege in 55 they say the fulfilment of the judgment for the unpardonable sin. When Titus left to Rome to see His father become Cesar- the Christians fled across the Jordan to the city of Pella! so when He returned and began the battle- No Jewish believers wewre left in Jerusalem.
Yes, I full well know this! I was suggesting that Jewish believers suffered because *they lost their homeland.* This was not due to their own sins, but due to the vast majority of Jews who rejected their Messiah! Believers do suffer in a fallen nation, due to no fault of their own. God has called upon us to weather the storm as a witness to God's love to a wayward generation.
I always consider biblical arguments. But reject philosophical arguments. I have studied and taught eschatology in Bible college, bible institute and churches for over 30 years now.
Well, we apparently both love the same subject. I hope you'll remain open to what I have to say because I've done due diligence on the subject. As long as I refer not to philosophy, but to Bible, I hope you'll remain open?
