Abraham, by faith or works

[H. Richard]

How is it not in context, to make it stupid and invalid?

Stranger

Stranger, the truth is that you can not answer your question the way I did. You believe in one or two scriptures and I believe all of them, IN CONTEXT.

There is an overall message in the scriptures in that God has dealt with mankind in different ways in different times. But the religious can't seem to see that. To them it is the same way though out the Bible.

From Abraham to Jesus God dealt with the Jews ONLY with minor exceptions (2 places). When He came, He came to the Jews ONLY.

After the Jews rejected Jesus God had another plan for mankind's salvation. Paul clearly told us that this new plan was hidden in God and revealed to him by revelation. But most can not see the words "hidden in God." They refuse to see and believe in this new gospel of grace.

By the way, if you continue to make this thread about me and my short comings I will ignore you.

 

[Stranger]

Stranger, the truth is that you can not answer your question the way I did. You believe in one or two scriptures and I believe all of them, IN CONTEXT.

There is an overall message in the scriptures in that God has dealt with mankind in different ways in different times. But the religious can't seem to see that. To them it is the same way though out the Bible.

From Abraham to Jesus God dealt with the Jews ONLY with minor exceptions (2 places). When He came, He came to the Jews ONLY.

After the Jews rejected Jesus God had another plan for mankind's salvation. Paul clearly told us that this new plan was hidden in God and revealed to him by revelation. But most can not see the words "hidden in God." They refuse to see and believe in this new gospel of grace.

By the way, if you continue to make this thread about me and my short comings I will ignore you.

I believe in all of the Scriptures also. How is Heb. 11:8-19 not in context with what you are talking about? They are talking about Abraham's faith. And they prove that Abraham's faith was proven before God before the offer of Isaac.

I don't see how anything else you said adds to anything.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

Faith is the same as believing.

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT! No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. -- It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

Do you think James didn't really understand the book of Genesis? Are you saying that he read it wrong?

Exactly what is your point?

 

[tom55]

Faith is the same as believing.

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT! No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. -- It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

Your "faith only" contention is that Abraham was justified by his faith and NOT his works.

"Work" is any action taken by man or the result of any action taken by man.

Abraham did what God told him to do. When God told him to pack up and leave his homeland, he did it. (Genesis 12:1-9) When God told him to take his only son to a place God directed and sacrifice him, he did it.

Genesis 22 is full of Abraham's work or action. In verse 12 we hear God's word to Abraham, "for NOW I know you fear God." Then God says, "because you have done this thing," AFTER that Abraham receives the blessings of God.

Abraham was justified by faith but what would have happened if he had refused to obey and cut off his foreskin? Would his obedience (good works) or disobedience have entered into the equation?

Abraham was justified by obedience to Gods directed works. Man is justified by obedience to Gods directed works.

 

[kerwin]

Don't quote me boy cause I ain't said...."


Yoy won't understand that cause you are not from my world.

Kerkin.... I ain't got anything for you

That is still dodging the issue.

 

[kerwin]

Stranger, the truth is that you can not answer your question the way I did. You believe in one or two scriptures and I believe all of them, IN CONTEXT.

There is an overall message in the scriptures in that God has dealt with mankind in different ways in different times. But the religious can't seem to see that. To them it is the same way though out the Bible.

From Abraham to Jesus God dealt with the Jews ONLY with minor exceptions (2 places). When He came, He came to the Jews ONLY.

After the Jews rejected Jesus God had another plan for mankind's salvation. Paul clearly told us that this new plan was hidden in God and revealed to him by revelation. But most can not see the words "hidden in God." They refuse to see and believe in this new gospel of grace.

By the way, if you continue to make this thread about me and my short comings I will ignore you.

No, you do not believe in all Scriptures or you would not accuse James of being a false teacher.

 

[kerwin]

I believe in all of the Scriptures also. How is Heb. 11:8-19 not in context with what you are talking about? They are talking about Abraham's faith. And they prove that Abraham's faith was proven before God before the offer of Isaac.

I don't see how anything else you said adds to anything.

Stranger

You chose not to answer what I said but I think I carried away on explaining anyway.

I do not believe proof of anything because he knows it before hand, It would have more to do with testing and perseverance,

James 1:2-4Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3 knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

 

[Stranger]

You chose not to answer what I said but I think I carried away on explaining anyway.

I do not believe proof of anything because he knows it before hand, It would have more to do with testing and perseverance,

James 1:2-4Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3 knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Well, if you do not believe proof of anything, what does it matter what anyone has to say. Rather a ridiculous statement.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Your "faith only" contention is that Abraham was justified by his faith and NOT his works.

"Work" is any action taken by man or the result of any action taken by man.

Abraham did what God told him to do. When God told him to pack up and leave his homeland, he did it. (Genesis 12:1-9) When God told him to take his only son to a place God directed and sacrifice him, he did it.

Genesis 22 is full of Abraham's work or action. In verse 12 we hear God's word to Abraham, "for NOW I know you fear God." Then God says, "because you have done this thing," AFTER that Abraham receives the blessings of God.

Abraham was justified by faith but what would have happened if he had refused to obey and cut off his foreskin? Would his obedience (good works) or disobedience have entered into the equation?

Abraham was justified by obedience to Gods directed works. Man is justified by obedience to Gods directed works.

No. Man is justified by faith only. Not by obedience. The obedience of 'faith'., but not any works.

Stranger

 

[FHII]

That is still dodging the issue.

I suppose that was a bit rude, an sorry about that. But Kerwin, your issues don't make much sense.

 

[kerwin]

I suppose that was a bit rude, an sorry about that. But Kerwin, your issues don't make much sense.

That merely means you do understand them and I am not explaining them good enough for you to understand them.

 

[kerwin]

No. Man is justified by faith only. Not by obedience. The obedience of 'faith'., but not any works.

Stranger

That is untrue for it leaves no place for God's grace though if the only then what you say is fine.

The works come via faith for without faith they too are dead.

 

[kerwin]

To anyone whom cares here is another verse to consider;

Ephesians 2:8-9Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[FHII]

That merely means you do understand them and I am not explaining them good enough for you to understand them.

Uh.... Yea! Sure!

 

[kerwin]

Well, if you do not believe proof of anything, what does it matter what anyone has to say. Rather a ridiculous statement.

Stranger

Oops! I trashed what I meant to say.

 

[Stranger]

That is untrue for it leaves no place for God's grace though if the only then what you say is fine.

The works come via faith for without faith they too are dead.

Being justified by faith alone is grace.

Stranger

 

[kerwin]

Being justified by faith alone is grace.

Stranger

Even faith is received by the grace because God is our Creator. It is by God's grace and it alone that anyone is saved but like most truth that one can be misunderstood in many ways. I quoted Ephesians 2:8-9, for in it Paul makes the statement that faith is a gift of God.

If Paul speaks truly in Ephesians 2:8-9, and I am convinced he does, then how can we be saved; or for that matter be justified by faith only. In fact claiming faith only is boasting since faith itself is a work performed by its practitioner.

 

[Stranger]

Even faith is received by the grace because God is our Creator. It is by God's grace and it alone that anyone is saved but like most truth that one can be misunderstood in many ways. I quoted Ephesians 2:8-9, for in it Paul makes the statement that faith is a gift of God.

If Paul speaks truly in Ephesians 2:8-9, and I am convinced he does, then how can we be saved; or for that matter be justified by faith only. In fact claiming faith only is boasting since faith itself is a work performed by its practitioner.

We can be justified by faith only because God has created our salvation to work that way.

Saving faith in Christ is not a work. As you see in Eph.2:8-9, it is a gift. There is nothing you could do to obtain it. One believes in Christ because God has given it to them to believe. He has opened their eyes.

Stranger

 

[H. Richard]

No, you do not believe in all Scriptures or you would not accuse James of being a false teacher.

You know that I have never said James was a false teacher. That makes you a false debater.

The book of James was written to Jews who were under the law of Moses. It PLAINLY SAYS SO IN JAMES 1:1. To apply it to those who are not under the Law of Moses is a false teaching.

 

[Stranger]

You know that I have never said James was a false teacher. That makes you a false debater.

The book of James was written to Jews who were under the law of Moses. It PLAINLY SAYS SO IN JAMES 1:1. To apply it to those who are not under the Law of Moses is a false teaching.

It doens't say that. It says it is written to the 'twelve tribes which are scattered abroad". At the time James wrote, they were not under the law.

Stranger