Abraham, by faith or works

[H. Richard]

It doens't say that. It says it is written to the 'twelve tribes which are scattered abroad". At the time James wrote, they were not under the law.

Stranger

***
Prove it by showing the scriptures.

I hate to burst your bubble but the biggest argument between the Jews, who believed Jesus was, indeed, the Messiah, and Paul's Gentile converts under grace was keeping the law of Moses.

In Acts 15 we see that James agreed that the Gentile did not have to keep the Law of Moses. But James did not include the Jews. Then we see in Acts 21 James and the Jewish believers were zealous to keep the Law of Moses.

Acts 21:18-25
18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.
19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;
21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come.

23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow.

24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."
NKJV

So what does Paul say about it?


Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
NKJV

Col 2:11
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
NKJV

 

[FHII]

In Acts 15 we see that James agreed that the Gentile did not have to keep the Law of Moses. But James did not include the Jews. Then we see in Acts 21 James and the Jewish believers were zealous to keep the Law of Moses.

That is absolutely 100% correct! Technically, Paul preached freedom for the Jews also. Yet James did not extend this "freedom" to Jews as well.

 

[kerwin]

You know that I have never said James was a false teacher. That makes you a false debater.

The book of James was written to Jews who were under the law of Moses. It PLAINLY SAYS SO IN JAMES 1:1. To apply it to those who are not under the Law of Moses is a false teaching.

Sorry, I forgot you followed that that two gospel heresy.

There is only one covenant for both the Jews and the Gentiles.

The Jews still teach that Gentiles do not have to adhere to the Law in order to be righteous.

A lot of the Law of Moses is customs God gave the Jews and the later took an oath to obey them. That oath was for their-selves and their decedents. It is not a different gospel but an oath that is still binding to them even under the new covenant. It has morality as well but that is accomplished by walking according to the Spirit. The oath is still binding to the Jews but they now have the power of God in there struggle to overcome sin. After all oath-breaking, especially to God, is unrighteousness.

In addition according to Paul's way of thinking, it is only those that disobey the Law can be under the Law is for Lawbreakers. (1 Timothy 1:9)

 

[kerwin]

We can be justified by faith only because God has created our salvation to work that way.

Saving faith in Christ is not a work. As you see in Eph.2:8-9, it is a gift. There is nothing you could do to obtain it. One believes in Christ because God has given it to them to believe. He has opened their eyes.

Stranger

I see your point but is an incomplete truth since faith is action but it is true that we would not perform that action if God had not created us to do so.

Free will vs. hard determinism vs soft determinism is a confusing topic that I really do not feel like drifting into. It is also off topic.

According to Paul it is God's gift that gives faith and faith justifies. That reveals that it is God that justifies it by giving us faith and not faith alone.

James claim is that faith gives works and it is equivalent to a rare definition of the Koine Greek word which is to "make just". If that is the definition of "justification" then Paul is stating it is not works make a Christian just but faith.

 

[Stranger]

***
Prove it by showing the scriptures.

I hate to burst your bubble but the biggest argument between the Jews, who believed Jesus was, indeed, the Messiah, and Paul's Gentile converts under grace was keeping the law of Moses.

In Acts 15 we see that James agreed that the Gentile did not have to keep the Law of Moses. But James did not include the Jews. Then we see in Acts 21 James and the Jewish believers were zealous to keep the Law of Moses.

Acts 21:18-25
18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.
19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;
21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come.

23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow.

24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."
NKJV

So what does Paul say about it?


Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
NKJV

Col 2:11
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
NKJV

I did show you Scripture. I showed how James 1:1 doesn't say what you said it did. The Jews were not under law when James wrote.

Just because Jewish believers had a hard time separating themselves from the law, does not mean they were under law. They were not.

The Scriptures, Gal.5:6 and Col. 2:11 say nothing concerning what Paul had to say about Acts 21:18-25.

 

[Stranger]

I see your point but is an incomplete truth since faith is action but it is true that we would not perform that action if God had not created us to do so.

Free will vs. hard determinism vs soft determinism is a confusing topic that I really do not feel like drifting into. It is also off topic.

According to Paul it is God's gift that gives faith and faith justifies. That reveals that it is God that justifies it by giving us faith and not faith alone.

James claim is that faith gives works and it is equivalent to a rare definition of the Koine Greek word which is to "make just". If that is the definition of "justification" then Paul is stating it is not works make a Christian just but faith.

I hesitate to call faith an 'action'. It is faith. It is there or it isn't. It creates action, but is not action.

I don't understand what you are saying in your last two lines.

Stranger

 

[kerwin]

I hesitate to call faith an 'action'. It is faith. It is there or it isn't. It creates action, but is not action.

I don't understand what you are saying in your last two lines.

Stranger

1. I can understand you hesitation.
2. I will attempt a better explanation.

Ephesians 4:24Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

24 and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Is the new man created by human works or by God working through faith?

It is the "created like God in true righteousness and holiness" that is rare definition of justified.

 

[Stranger]

1. I can understand you hesitation.
2. I will attempt a better explanation.

Ephesians 4:24Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

24 and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Is the new man created by human works or by God working through faith?

It is the "created like God in true righteousness and holiness" that is rare definition of justified.

The whole plan of salvation is a work of God. The new man is a creation of God. We enter into that salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Stranger

 

[H. Richard]

I did show you Scripture. I showed how James 1:1 doesn't say what you said it did. The Jews were not under law when James wrote.

Just because Jewish believers had a hard time separating themselves from the law, does not mean they were under law. They were not.

The Scriptures, Gal.5:6 and Col. 2:11 say nothing concerning what Paul had to say about Acts 21:18-25.

***
The scripture says what it says and to add assumptions to it make it say something else. As for me I will believe it says what it says. It was written to the Jews who were still trying to keep the Law as we see in Acts 21.

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
NKJV

You want to say the Jews were not under the Law at that time. You are basically right but they, including James, didn't believe it. I think the very fact that the believing Jews were not mad at James tells us something. This is a major point you would do well to consider; If James and Paul are teaching the same thing then why were Jews only displeased with Paul.

Since we disagree then perhaps you can explain why the believing Jews were only displeased with Paul.

 

[Angelina]

Hi Stranger,

I hesitate to call faith an 'action'. It is faith. It is there or it isn't. It creates action, but is not action.
I don't understand what you are saying in your last two lines.

I have always understood that faith is accompanied by action rather than being an action alone ~ so I agree with you there.

 

[Stranger]

***
The scripture says what it says and to add assumptions to it make it say something else. As for me I will believe it says what it says. It was written to the Jews who were still trying to keep the Law as we see in Acts 21.

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
NKJV

You want to say the Jews were not under the Law at that time. You are basically right but they, including James, didn't believe it. I think the very fact that the believing Jews were not mad at James tells us something. This is a major point you would do well to consider; If James and Paul are teaching the same thing then why were Jews only displeased with Paul.

Since we disagree then perhaps you can explain why the believing Jews were only displeased with Paul.

Well, I don't think I said James and Paul were teaching the same thing. They do not contradict one another, but their emphasis is different.

It wasn't just the believing Jews that were displeased with Paul, and not all were. The unbelieving Jews were just as mad if not madder at Paul. The Jews whole life revolved around the Law. It is very difficult to drop something that is warp and woof of your existence as a people. It took a miraculous intervention by God to persuade Paul. As a result Paul would later write the book of Hebrews to these believing Jews to encourage them to not go back to the law but go on with Christ.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Hi Stranger,




I have always understood that faith is accompanied by action rather than being an action alone ~ so I agree with you there.

Hello and thanks for your encouraging words.

I think Peter's confession of Christ is the best example of our faith. Matt. 16:15-17 " He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven".

None will believe on Christ unless the Father gives it to them to believe. He gives us that faith.

Stranger

 

[kerwin]

The whole plan of salvation is a work of God. The new man is a creation of God. We enter into that salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Stranger

I agree and neither Paul or James say anything different.

James claim faith conceives and gives birth to works while Paul chooses not to go into those details just he chose not to mention that faith is a gift of God in Romans 3:28.

 

[Born_Again]

Hi Stranger,




I have always understood that faith is accompanied by action rather than being an action alone ~ so I agree with you there.

I agree as well. I feel it is through faith, that action is produced. You can have all the faith in the world but if you stay at home and never share it with anyone and never go out and do works in the name of Christ, then what works have you done?

 

[H. Richard]

Well, I don't think I said James and Paul were teaching the same thing. They do not contradict one another, but their emphasis is different.

It wasn't just the believing Jews that were displeased with Paul, and not all were. The unbelieving Jews were just as mad if not madder at Paul. The Jews whole life revolved around the Law. It is very difficult to drop something that is warp and woof of your existence as a people. It took a miraculous intervention by God to persuade Paul. As a result Paul would later write the book of Hebrews to these believing Jews to encourage them to not go back to the law but go on with Christ.

Stranger

***
Did you answer the question or just talk around it?

Question:: "Since we disagree then perhaps you can explain why the believing Jews were only displeased with Paul.

The unbelieving Jews (Saul) were at odds with the believing Jews. Believing in what? That the law was still in effect and that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and King.

The believing Jews were at adds with Paul because he taught that no one is saved by keeping the Law.

The glaring fact is that James' teaching to the Jews is still under the Law. However, Paul's teaching to the whole world is that no one is saved by keeping laws. But man's teaching is that a person is saved by grace and then must keep him/her self saved by works of the law.

The problem with an answer to the question is that a person has to either accept the glaring truth or rationalize it to meant what it does not indicate.

 

[tom55]

No. Man is justified by faith only. Not by obedience. The obedience of 'faith'., but not any works.

Stranger

James says Faith without works is dead and that we must be doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves ...... doers who act will be blessed in their doing.

Paul said let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up. So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us work for the good of all, and especially for those of the family of faith.

Matthew 25:31-46 talks about what we must do and what will happen if we disobey his words. Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Since the bible can not contradict itself it seems your theory is heretical.

 

[Stranger]

***
Did you answer the question or just talk around it?

Question:: "Since we disagree then perhaps you can explain why the believing Jews were only displeased with Paul.

The unbelieving Jews (Saul) were at odds with the believing Jews. Believing in what? That the law was still in effect and that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and King.

The believing Jews were at adds with Paul because he taught that no one is saved by keeping the Law.

The glaring fact is that James' teaching to the Jews is still under the Law. However, Paul's teaching to the whole world is that no one is saved by keeping laws. But man's teaching is that a person is saved by grace and then must keep him/her self saved by works of the law.

The problem with an answer to the question is that a person has to either accept the glaring truth or rationalize it to meant what it does not indicate.

James teaching is not under the law. It is Christian. It is for all Christians today because it is not Law. In 1:22 James could have easily said "be ye doers of the law, and not hearers only". But he didn't. He said "be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only".

Without a doubt James is writing with considerable Jewish influence. But he is not writing under the Law.

Stranger

 

[FHII]

James teaching is not under the law. It is Christian. It is for all Christians today because it is not Law. In 1:22 James could have easily said "be ye doers of the law, and not hearers only". But he didn't. He said "be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only".

Without a doubt James is writing with considerable Jewish influence. But he is not writing under the Law.

Stranger

Biblical evidence says otherwise. I cannot ignore what is written in acts 15 and 21. James clearly supports Jews staying under the Law.

 

[Stranger]

James says Faith without works is dead and that we must be doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves ...... doers who act will be blessed in their doing.

Paul said let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up. So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us work for the good of all, and especially for those of the family of faith.

Matthew 25:31-46 talks about what we must do and what will happen if we disobey his words. Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Since the bible can not contradict itself it seems your theory is heretical.

Yes James does say that. That doesn't teach against salvation by faith alone.

And I agree with your quote of Paul. But that doesn't teach against salvation by faith alone.

Matt. 25:31-46 is not the judgement of the Church, It is a judgement of Gentile nations. Matt. 25:32

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Biblical evidence says otherwise. I cannot ignore what is written in acts 15 and 21. James clearly supports Jews staying under the Law.

Acts 15 and 21 is writing about what James did or said. The book of James is James writing. What I am saying is that James did not write under the Law. The book of James is not written by one who is under the Law and it's contents do not reflect how people under the Law should act.

That the Jews would have a difficult time separating completely from the Law I agree. That they would slip back into the Law at times, I agree. Even Paul did in Acts 21. But Paul did not write under Law. And neither did James. In Acts 15 James advice would be wise so as to not offend.

Stranger