Abraham, by faith or works

[H. Richard]

Acts 15 and 21 is writing about what James did or said. The book of James is James writing. What I am saying is that James did not write under the Law. The book of James is not written by one who is under the Law and it's contents do not reflect how people under the Law should act.

That the Jews would have a difficult time separating completely from the Law I agree. That they would slip back into the Law at times, I agree. Even Paul did in Acts 21. But Paul did not write under Law. And neither did James. In Acts 15 James advice would be wise so as to not offend.

Stranger

***
I disagree. The book of James is not a book about grace.

Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.

1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)

6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.

Number 6 and 11 are the most telling. The fact that James never says anything about the cross and Jesus' shed blood is proof, to me, that James is still teaching law.

 

[tom55]

Yes James does say that. That doesn't teach against salvation by faith alone.

And I agree with your quote of Paul. But that doesn't teach against salvation by faith alone.

Matt. 25:31-46 is not the judgement of the Church, It is a judgement of Gentile nations. Matt. 25:32

Stranger

You are right. Scripture does not teach "against salvation by faith alone". It clearly teaches salvation by faith AND works!! This has been the Christian belief for 2,000 year.

I'm glad we can agree...

 

[Stranger]

You are right. Scripture does not teach "against salvation by faith alone". It clearly teaches salvation by faith AND works!! This has been the Christian belief for 2,000 year.

I'm glad we can agree...

We don't agree. Scripture teaches salvation by faith alone. Not faith and works. How you see we agree is a mystery.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

***
I disagree. The book of James is not a book about grace.

Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.

1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)

6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.

Number 6 and 11 are the most telling. The fact that James never says anything about the cross and Jesus' shed blood is proof, to me, that James is still teaching law.

List the 18 places where law is found.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

We don't agree. Scripture teaches salvation by faith alone. Not faith and works. How you see we agree is a mystery.

Stranger

YOU said: Yes James does say that AND I agree with your quote of Paul.

Very confusing. You agree but you disagree! <_<

 

[Stranger]

YOU said: Yes James does say that AND I agree with your quote of Paul.

Very confusing. You agree but you disagree! <_<

The verses you cite do not teach against salvation by faith alone. And I agree with those verses. I just don't agree with you.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

The verses you cite do not teach against salvation by faith alone. And I agree with those verses. I just don't agree with you.

Stranger

You agree that:

Faith without works is dead

We must be doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves ...... doers who act will be blessed in their doing

We must not grow weary in doing what is right....let us work for the good of all

And what will happen to us if we disobey his words about what we should DO for others (go away into eternal punishment)


But you also believe:

Faith without works is NOT dead

We DO NOT HAVE TO BE doers of the word and it is OK to merely be hearers and the hearers DON'T deceive themselves ...... doers who act will NOT be blessed in their doing

We must not grow weary in HAVING FAITH IN what is right....let us HAVE FAITH for the good of all

And we will NOT go away into eternal punishment if we do not do things for others we will ONLY go to eternal punishment if we don't have faith.

Your theory is heretical and you fulfilled scripture: 2 Peter 3:16

Good Job.

 

[Stranger]

You agree that:

Faith without works is dead

We must be doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves ...... doers who act will be blessed in their doing

We must not grow weary in doing what is right....let us work for the good of all

And what will happen to us if we disobey his words about what we should DO for others (go away into eternal punishment)


But you also believe:

Faith without works is NOT dead

We DO NOT HAVE TO BE doers of the word and it is OK to merely be hearers and the hearers DON'T deceive themselves ...... doers who act will NOT be blessed in their doing

We must not grow weary in HAVING FAITH IN what is right....let us HAVE FAITH for the good of all

And we will NOT go away into eternal punishment if we do not do things for others we will ONLY go to eternal punishment if we don't have faith.

Your theory is heretical and you fulfilled scripture: 2 Peter 3:16

Good Job.

Be specific in the verses you quote. Give the verses where they are found where you say they disagree with me. You give 2Peter 3:16 as the final verse that supposedly proves your point. All throughout your argument you fail to give the verses that supposedly speak against my view with their location.

Good job.

Stranger

 

[H. Richard]

List the 18 places where law is found.

Stranger

***
James 1:25
2:8
2:9
2:10
2:11
2:12
4:11
4:11
4:11
4:11
That is 10 places as found by my new BS search engine. I don't know how I got 18. Sorry about that.

 

[H. Richard]

What happens to a person's theology when it is realized that all the sins of mankind were paid for on the cross?

The only thing that is not paid for is unbelief. If a person does not believe Jesus paid for their sins then that person is in a state of unbelief in what Jesus did for them on the cross. In simple words, for a person to not believe in Jesus' work on the cross places that person outside of the atoning work of Jesus on the cross.

It has been said that after a person is made a child of God that person will have works. Those works are the works that God has for them to do as guided by the Holy Spirit. But the religious think they can chose the works God wants them to do, and for them, it is following the Law and that places them outside of grace.

 

[Stranger]

***
James 1:25
2:8
2:9
2:10
2:11
2:12
4:11
4:11
4:11
4:11
That is 10 places as found by my new BS search engine. I don't know how I got 18. Sorry about that.

You got 18 because you trusted someone else's count. It is either that or you don't know how to count.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

Be specific in the verses you quote. Give the verses where they are found where you say they disagree with me. You give 2Peter 3:16 as the final verse that supposedly proves your point. All throughout your argument you fail to give the verses that supposedly speak against my view with their location.

Good job.

Stranger

You know the verses....if you don't then you should learn them.

It doesn't matter if I provide the verses. It won't change your mind.

Peter 3:16 was meant for you.......ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[H. Richard]

You got 18 because you trusted someone else's count. It is either that or you don't know how to count.

Stranger

***
Thanks.

 

[kerwin]

What happens to a person's theology when it is realized that all the sins of mankind were paid for on the cross?
....

And that is universal salvation; which I do not think you meant to imply. It need rewording to clearly pass on your true thoughts on the matter.

For example my take away from Scripture is that Jesus sacrificed himself to pay for the sins of each and every person but only those whom adhere to the good news will be forgiven for the sins they committed before they are made perfect.

 

[H. Richard]

And that is universal salvation; which I do not think you meant to imply. It need rewording to clearly pass on your true thoughts on the matter.

For example my take away from Scripture is that Jesus sacrificed himself to pay for the sins of each and every person but only those whom adhere to the good news will be forgiven for the sins they committed before they are made perfect.

***
His shed blood pays for all the sins of the world. However if you don't believe it pays for your sins then it doesn't. Jesus has already paid for each man/women's sins. The only sin that condemns in this age of grace is the sin of unbelief; unbelief in what Jesus did on the cross. No, there is no Universalism in this teaching. Those that refuse to accept what Jesus did on the cross will spend eternity knowing that their sins were paid for but they refused to believe it. In simple words they turned their back on what Jesus did.

 

[kerwin]

***
His shed blood pays for all the sins of the world. However if you don't believe it pays for your sins then it doesn't. Jesus has already paid for each man/women's sins. The only sin that condemns in this age of grace is the sin of unbelief; unbelief in what Jesus did on the cross. No, there is no Universalism in this teaching. Those that refuse to accept what Jesus did on the cross will spend eternity knowing that their sins were paid for but they refused to believe it. In simple words they turned their back on what Jesus did.

You are missing the difference in what I said and what you said.

Jesus paid that each human being would be set free and yet many choose remain enslaved because they love darkness. In short he only paid for those that accept freedom but the rest get what they want though they will not like the cost. There is no universal salvation.

 

[Stranger]

You know the verses....if you don't then you should learn them.

It doesn't matter if I provide the verses. It won't change your mind.

Peter 3:16 was meant for you.......ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Well then, my statement remains that I agree with the verses you gave. I just don't agree with you.. See reply #86.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

***
Thanks.

So what were those verses?

Stranger

 

[Born_Again]

This thread is confusing now. If everyone agrees that faith without works is dead, and that Jesus died for all but only those who believe will reap the harvest, then whats the argument? I have read the last two pages and Im not sure what to make of all of this now lol

 

[Stranger]

This thread is confusing now. If everyone agrees that faith without works is dead, and that Jesus died for all but only those who believe will reap the harvest, then whats the argument? I have read the last two pages and Im not sure what to make of all of this now lol

It was suggested that James wrote under the Law. Which makes the book of James not a Christian book but a Jewish law keeping book. This supposedly explains all the 'law' and 'work' references in James.

I disagree with this. James is a Christian book and is not written to or for those under law.

Stranger