Actually Jesus returns twice...

[ewq1938]

Your being obtuse here. The point is a sudden destruction is coming for this world, this is taught By Jesus, Peter, and Paul. The destruction is not symbolic.

Not a global destruction at the second coming taught by anyone though. Not all unsaved humans being killed globally either. No passage teaches any of that. Rev 2 and 19 make it clear a rule over people will happen after the second coming and not one Amill has an argument against those. The two gospel examples do not teach against what some claim, and what Peter wrote of is partly at the second coming, and the rest at the coming/arrival of Christ to the GWTJ place which is not the same timeframe.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, but it was shortened to 42 months so not 7 years anymore.

Yes??? OK, whatever.

 

[PeterAndroz]

This is becoming cryptic.

Rejecting Christ is the mark of the beast. Complete rejection is unavoidable.

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and his image and receives the mark [of the beast] on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will [have to] drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone (flaming sulfur) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ).
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is [encouragement for] the steadfast endurance of the saints (God’s people), those who habitually keep God’s commandments and their faith in Jesus.

I try to stay with the topic but at times find myself straying
..
forever torment for humans ?
I'm currently on the fence/neutral with that one.
Many well meaning believers argue for or against it
eg this PhD 10 min vid

 

[Scott Downey]

With Noah: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage...with Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.....do you think this is what the end of the 7 year tribulation will look like?

What is sudden destruction..that comes upon them like labor pains?

The end of the age-world. It gets blasted with fire, on the Day of the Lord Jesus and so do all the unsaved people on it.
Then God creates again all things new

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Peter 3 - New King James Version

God’s Promise Is Not Slack - Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior...

www.biblegateway.com

Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Be Steadfast​

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21 - New King James Version

All Things Made New - Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud...

www.biblegateway.com

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[CrowCross]

The end of the age-world. It gets blasted with fire, on the Day of the Lord Jesus and so do all the unsaved people on it.
Then God creates again all things new

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Peter 3 - New King James Version

God’s Promise Is Not Slack - Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior...

www.biblegateway.com

Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Be Steadfast​

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21 - New King James Version

All Things Made New - Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud...

www.biblegateway.com

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Lets try one more time with an answer as you keep avoiding the question...With Noah: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage...with Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.....do you think this is what the end of the 7 year tribulation will look like?

Yes or no?

Do you think this is what the beginning of the 7 year tribulation will look like?

Yes or no?

 

[Scott Downey]

Lets try one more time with an answer as you keep avoiding the question...With Noah: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage...with Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.....do you think this is what the end of the 7 year tribulation will look like?

Yes or no?

Do you think this is what the beginning of the 7 year tribulation will look like?

Yes or no?

During the tribulation period the world keeps on functioning although the times are hard.
Of course some places have a much worse time than others.
And for Christians they are going to be persecuted and experience trials.

Jesus returns after that tribulation to collect His people as in 'rapture' and judge the world in righteousness, as Paul tells the Greeks in Acts 17

Matthew 26
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 13 - New King James Version

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple - Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another...

www.biblegateway.com

The Great Tribulation​

14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ [f]spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the [g]elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.

26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The Parable of the Fig Tree​

28 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that [i]it is near—at the doors! 30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

No One Knows the Day or Hour​

32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!”

 

[CrowCross]

During the tribulation period the world keeps on functioning although the times are hard.
Of course some places have a much worse time than others.
And for Christians they are going to be persecuted and experience trials.

Have you not read Rev 6?
8 Then I looked and saw a pale green horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

Have you not read Rev 8? Here is a small portion of it...
7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters.

Are you really going to tell me...as you said...."During the tribulation period the world keeps on functioning although the times are hard."?????????

With Noah: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage...with Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.....do you think this is what the end of the 7 year tribulation will look like?

Of course not...The only time that meets this criteria is a pre-trib rapture.

 

[rwb]

Have you not read Rev 6?
8 Then I looked and saw a pale green horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

Have you not read Rev 8? Here is a small portion of it...
7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters.

Are you really going to tell me...as you said...."During the tribulation period the world keeps on functioning although the times are hard."?????????

With Noah: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage...with Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.....do you think this is what the end of the 7 year tribulation will look like?

Of course not...The only time that meets this criteria is a pre-trib rapture.

What seven-year tribulation? Can you show from the Bible the seven-year tribulation you say shall be?

 

[CrowCross]

What seven-year tribulation? Can you show from the Bible the seven-year tribulation you say shall be?

see the above post.

 

[Scott Downey]

Have you not read Rev 6?
8 Then I looked and saw a pale green horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

Have you not read Rev 8? Here is a small portion of it...
7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters.

Are you really going to tell me...as you said...."During the tribulation period the world keeps on functioning although the times are hard."?????????

With Noah: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage...with Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.....do you think this is what the end of the 7 year tribulation will look like?

Of course not...The only time that meets this criteria is a pre-trib rapture.

Hmm, well I wont dispute with Christ and His apostles teaching, but yeah, many do.

Grass burning up, trees dying, forests disappearing due to deserts growing, drought all over getting worse.
Wormwood, water pollution.

World has drought and water pollution growing around the world today.

 

[Scott Downey]

Some people still won't even acknowledge the coming sudden destruction which comes as a snare for all those who dwell on the earth, I guess for them things just continue on as usual, they scoff at anyone who says different, kind of like scoffing at Noah building the ark or all the prophetic warnings given to Israel before their being taken into captivity.

2 Peter 3
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.

 

[CrowCross]

Hmm, well I wont dispute with Christ and His apostles teaching, but yeah, many do.

Grass burning up, trees dying, forests disappearing due to deserts growing, drought all over getting worse.
Wormwood, water pollution.

World has drought and water pollution growing around the world today.

Yikes...you really downplayed Rev 6 and Rev 8...making them seem as if those events are normal and like today.
I could have listed other verses that show great tribulation and wrath that has never been or will never be again across the planet.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yikes...you really downplayed Rev 6 and Rev 8...making them seem as if those events are normal and like today.
I could have listed other verses that show great tribulation and wrath that has never been or will never be again across the planet.

Not downplayed, but those things we are already starting to see now.

Why shorten the days for the elect believers sakes if they are not around during the tribulation??

Mark 13
19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the [g]elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.


Jesus even brings up the Satanic lies and deceptions, antichrist, false prophet and lying miracles and wonders, happening with His people as they are still on the earth during this time..... They are experiencing all that firsthand live, warning them to not be deceived.

 

[CrowCross]

Not downplayed, but those things we are already starting to see now.

Perhaps....but when they go full tilt during the tribulation...do you think that would represent the good times mentioned in the scripture about the day of Noah and days of Lot in correlation to the return of Christ? Of course not....which is a very, very, very strong indication the rapture is pre-trib.

Let me ask again....With Noah: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage...with Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.....do you think this is what the end of the 7 year tribulation will look like? Obviously the answer is NO!.....it's speaking of pre-trib times.

 

[Scott Downey]

Perhaps....but when they go full tilt during the tribulation...do you think that would represent the good times mentioned in the scripture about the day of Noah and days of Lot in correlation to the return of Christ? Of course not....which is a very, very, very strong indication the rapture is pre-trib.

Let me ask again....With Noah: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage...with Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.....do you think this is what the end of the 7 year tribulation will look like? Obviously the answer is NO!.....it's speaking of pre-trib times.

It is not saying those times are good, just that people forget God and they go on with living. They take the MOB, they go along with the ways of the world, like they always try to do.

fact is also this, before the sudden destruction, there is a time peace and safety, things seem to be getting better at the very end...
This false peace is with the world and the beast's world system of govenment, not peace with God.
Neither You or I can deny what that scripture actually says!

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Thessalonians 5 - New King James Version

The Day of the Lord - But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as...

www.biblegateway.com

The Day of the Lord​

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

 

[Scott Downey]

Also the people of the world at that time would not be saying peace and safety in this way unless before that time they did not have peace and safety, but had hardships, tribulation, troubles, wars, famines, earthquakes, natural disasters, contrary bad governments, disease, and much dying.

 

[CrowCross]

Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.

That's a strange statement...sudden destruction comes...slowly at first the harder and closer at the end...like labor pains.
What is this sudden destruction? If it starts out slow the increases with time and intensity.

The bottom line....the days of Noah...is a pretrib timeline.

 

[rwb]

see the above post.

There is nothing found there to prove this seven-year tribulation! Where does the Bible show us there will be a seven-year tribulation? I hear many folks allude to this, but none can prove what they allege FROM the Word of God!

 

[CrowCross]

There is nothing found there to prove this seven-year tribulation! Where does the Bible show us there will be a seven-year tribulation? I hear many folks allude to this, but none can prove what they allege FROM the Word of God!

These threads have presented all kinds of "proof"....can you prove there will be no 7 year tribulation?
Perhaps you think we're in the tribulation or have already gone through it...????

 

[rwb]

These threads have presented all kinds of "proof"....can you prove there will be no 7 year tribulation?
Perhaps you think we're in the tribulation or have already gone through it...????

Fact is, nowhere in Scripture can we find this seven-year tribulation you continue to promote. It defies logic to ask one to prove something from the Bible that is nowhere to be found in the Bible. What I believe the Bible teaches is that the church, representing the Kingdom of God on earth would suffer "great tribulation" such as nothing like it before, nor shall ever be again from the time Christ came to earth a man proclaiming the Kingdom of God had come. Faithful saints throughout every generation have suffered and shall suffer great tribulation in this life as the Kingdom of God is being completed, and it will not end until Christ comes again.