All Israel will be saved

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Nancy

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Since redemption is of grace, So then, are you suggesting redemption is a reward? Not according to scripture...

Romans 4:4 (NKJV) Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Romans 11:6 (NKJV) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

So while there are rewards indeed for faithful service, redemption is not a reward or a wage for faithful service. It is a free gift by simply trusting in Messiah. Otherwise it is not grace. It is best never to confuse the two.

And it still doesn't negate one bit that Paul has both believers and Israel in view as separate unique entities in Galatians 6:16. Each with different purposes and destinies.
I was not saying that redemption has ANYTHING to do with works...good works, for His glory will be what Christians will be judged on as far as "rewards". I am well aware that redemption comes only through the Grace of God and our faith in Him. Nobody can "work" for their redemption...that is elementary to say the least. This is obviously a communication issue because, I am agreeing with you. I am not a "works for redemption" proponent in the least.
 
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Copperhead

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I was not saying that redemption has ANYTHING to do with works...good works, for His glory will be what Christians will be judged on as far as "rewards". I am well aware that redemption comes only through the Grace of God and our faith in Him. Nobody can "work" for their redemption...that is elementary to say the least. This is obviously a communication issue because, I am agreeing with you. I am not a "works for redemption" proponent in the least.

If you were agreeing, my bad, I read it wrong. Please forgive. I am dumber than I look! :)
 
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Copperhead

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All the nations will be gathered and judged on how they treated Jacob/Israel. Just as now, Jerusalem is a stumbling stone to all nations as prophesied. The operative words are ALL NATIONS. And the scripture is specific that it is all nations other than literal Jacob/Israel. So while it is thru Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) that all nations are blessed, all nations will be judged on how they treated the Hebrew people within them. So while there may be descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob living within these nations, there is still a delineation between Israel and the Nation within each of them. I am not convinced that any other nation than Israel is Israel.

And when Messiah is King on this earth, 10 people of the nations will grab the hem of 1 Hebrew and plead... let us go with you for we know the Lord is with you. Zechariah 8:23. Even within the Kingdom the distinction between Hebrew and Gentile will remain. It is obvious from that passage in Zechariah that those 10 of the nations recognize Yeshua as King and Lord, but just as now, that does not make them Jacob/Israel.
 
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n2thelight

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I actually have no idea where this is going, God knows who His people are, He knows where they are, He knows whom He will save and he knows when. and it is honestly none of our business, Doesnt add one dot of anything to ones salvation.


Except for the elect whom were already justified He don't know whom will be saved
 

n2thelight

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So while there may be descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob living within these nations, there is still a delineation between Israel and the Nation within each of them. I am not convinced that any other nation than Israel is Israel.

So again ,where is Judah? Scripture did not say they(Israel) would be within a nation, but they would be nations, plural...It's clear ,very, that Israel and Judah are two separate houses.

Where is Israel???It should be clear, very clear!!
 
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Copperhead

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So again ,where is Judah? Scripture did not say they(Israel) would be within a nation, but they would be nations, plural...It's clear ,very, that Israel and Judah are two separate houses.

Where is Israel???It should be clear, very clear!!

It is not within my pay grade to worry about where both houses are now, but I know where they will be towards the end. They were both in the Land when Yeshua was here the first time to cause Him to return to His place. And they will both have to be in the Land at the end to acknowledge their offense of rejecting Messiah and petition for His return before He will return. Hosea 5:14-15.

So this fascination with two houses really is just a diversion and waste of time. Either that or Hosea was full of wild blueberry muffins, because he said that both northern kingdom and southern kingdom were guilty of causing Yeshua to return to His place. And it will take both to acknowledge that offense and petition for His return to get Him to come back.

And then all Jacob/Israel will be saved.
 

Copperhead

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Only if you hate God's way and bible study. The 2 houses is God's masterpiece of justice and mutual understanding. It comprises both main commandments.

Ok, so then I would guess you think the redeemed in Messiah are now Israel.

So then please enlighten us, when did the redeemed that make up the bride of Christ reject Him so that He returned to His place?

Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah. [both houses]
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.
"

Since the "they" that committed the offense that caused Yeshua to return to His place, it has to be the "they" that acknowledges that offense and calling out to Him to return. Now, again, when did the redeemed that make up the Bride of Messiah commit the offense of rejecting Messiah so that He returned to His place? Absurd!

Yeshua in Matthew 23:37-39 gives an expositional commentary on Hosea 5:14-15. And it clearly refers to all Jacob/Israel by mentioning Jerusalem (Zion). Not the body of Messiah.

And the Bride of Messiah is NOT the wife of Yahweh, which is what Jacob/Israel is referred to in all the prophets.

The two house theory is nothing more that yet another version or British Israelism, kingdom now, replacement theology, etc. It has led to the killing of more people than most anything in Christendom. Some like to use Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 to support this nonsense, but those passages could easily be put on replacement theology folks also.

And in Joel 3, the nations will be judged on how they treated collective Jacob/Israel. There is no mention is scripture of the nations been gathered and judged on how they treated the Bride of Messiah.

 
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Episkopos

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Ok, so then I would guess you think the redeemed in Messiah are now Israel.

it's always been that way. Not all of national Israel are the Israel of God...just a remnant. Likewise the redeemed among the nations...just a remnant of these.

But God gets to showcase...by dividing the people according to ethnicity...His ways. And He upholds both the law and grace. But very few are not distracted by the differences to see the truth.

Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah. [both houses]
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.
"

Ephraim is the church from the nations. Judah are the Jews. In Christ there is no difference.
 
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Episkopos

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And the Bride of Messiah is NOT the wife of Yahweh, which is what Jacob/Israel is referred to in all the prophets.

I know the drill. In order to deny the truth of God you make 2 brides. And you use strawman arguments to erase truth from the bible/ But you just need to look more closely and deeply.

I suggest you try my new thread on "mind loops". I'm hoping to help people out of circular reasoning.
 

Keraz

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Literal Israel and Spiritual Israel:

Throughout the New Testament, as well as in some prophecies of the Old Testament, the Bible makes a transition from literal Israel to spiritual Israel. Hosea 2:23, Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:29; Romans 9-11

In Revelation 12:1-17, we find this transition from literal to spiritual Israel in the prophetic language of symbols. In verse 2, the symbolic woman is pregnant. Her child is Jesus who was born a Jew in the land of Judah. In verse 4 the dragon/Satan seeks to destroy the child Jesus when He is born. This was fulfilled by Herod: Matthew 2:13-16. In verse 5 the child is caught up to God in heaven, representing the resurrection of Christ.

As the prophecy progresses in verse 6, the woman no longer represents ethnic Israel but has now transitioned to spiritual Christian Israel: fleeing from persecution during the prophesied 42 months of the Great Tribulation. Verses 7-12 describes the victory gained over Satan by Jesus’ death on the Cross and how Satan and his angels are finally thrown down to the earth, 1260 days, three and a half years, the 42 month period before Jesus physically Returns.

Then, in verse 13 the woman is again brought to view, being persecuted by Satan. In verse 14 she is given wings of an eagle so as she can escape. Verses 6 and 14 present a major prophetic transition to God’s people. Both the woman and her place have changed from ethnic Israel in the Middle East to spiritual Israel and the new place God has prepared for her. Note that some Christians remain: verse 17 and Satan persecutes them. They are the ‘many’ that agreed to the 7 year treaty of peace with the Anti-Christ, Daniel 11:32a and do not go into exile: Zephaniah 14:2

It is important to understand three truths outlined in the prophecy and confirmed both in the New Testament and in the history of the church:
  1. After the death of Christ, the Israel of God, transitioned from literal Israel to spiritual Israel. From an ethnic people to all peoples. 1 Peter 2:9-10
  2. God’s faithful people: the woman, are moved from the holy Land to a place of safety on earth, given to her by God, to avoid the Great Tribulation.
  3. The new Israel of God: all true Christians, are the focal point of the New Testament and the inheritors of God’s promises to ancient Israel.
Thinking that God still has a plan to redeem ethnic Israel; the Jewish people, conflicts with many prophesies that say how Judah will be judged and only a remnant will survive. It is Christians, from every race, nation and language who are God’s true, righteous people. Galatians 6:16; the Overcomers [Israelites] of God.

The ‘woman’ in the latter part of this prophecy represents spiritual Israel: all faithful believers in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28 & 6:14-16; Romans 2:28-29

Revelation 12 presents us with a prophetic outline of God’s Christian people in the symbolic form of a woman. In the first part of Revelation 12, the woman is the literal House of Judah located in Palestine, The latter part of the same prophecy makes use of the same symbols that took literal Israel on their journey to Canaan; to now describe the journey of the woman, the Christian Israelites of God, to a safe place on earth where they can worship Him in safety, until the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation have passed.
Ref: James Rafferty
 

Eternally Grateful

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All Israel is all Israel

in the passage, paul separated israel from gentile, even as believers,

the gentiles are warmed not to be proud, called the unnatural branch.
Israel is called the natural branch, currently has only a remnant (Born again believers who are of Israel) yet blinded in part (unsaved who are of Israel, we are told they are hated because they are an enemy, but be,p obedient because of the promise.
Paul states a fact, which goes with many OT prophesies, at an appointed time, Israel will repent, and recieve Jesus as messiah, and as such, be saved.

we are even told when, the end of the age of the gentile, Ie, when Rome is crushed by Christ at his return. (See daniel)
 

Keraz

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All Israel is all Israel

in the passage, paul separated israel from gentile, even as believers,
Ephesians 2:11-18 is perfectly clear: ethnicity has no value for salvation. Remember: God has no favorites. Romans 2:11

Thinking that those people who call themselves Israel, have any special position with God contradicts the many prophesies that tell of the demise of the Jewish people for their continued rejection of Jesus. He said what they were: ...of the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 3:9
 

Eternally Grateful

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Ephesians 2:11-18 is perfectly clear: ethnicity has no value for salvation. Remember: God has no favorites. Romans 2:11

Thinking that those people who call themselves Israel, have any special position with God contradicts the many prophesies that tell of the demise of the Jewish people for their continued rejection of Jesus. He said what they were: ...of the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 3:9
Your correct

but God did call Israel out for a purpose, and he did make specific promises to them and them only which have nothing to do with salvation. That’s why paul made it clear. The GIFTS OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

and again, as I said, Israel gets restored when they repent, they get saved when they call out on the name of the lord like we do, LEV 26 tells us why they are being punished, and also tells us what they have to do to be restored,

Again, Paul seperates saved Israel from saved Gentile in the passage, there is no need to do this if he is speaking of spiritual Israel.
 

Stan B

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All Israel is all Israel
in the passage, paul separated israel from gentile, even as believers,

we are even told when, the end of the age of the gentile, Ie, when Rome is crushed by Christ at his return. (See daniel)

The Times of the Gentiles comes to an end, with the sealing of the 144,000, when God again directs His attention to Israel following the opening of the 6th seal. Rev 7

After the sixth seal, the Times of the Gentiles are over as the 144,000 Jews are sealed, and the saints are raptured. Rev 7. "I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb". “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come OUT of the great tribulation. Rev 7:9-14
 

Keraz

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Your correct

but God did call Israel out for a purpose, and he did make specific promises to them and them only which have nothing to do with salvation. That’s why paul made it clear. The GIFTS OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

and again, as I said, Israel gets restored when they repent, they get saved when they call out on the name of the lord like we do, LEV 26 tells us why they are being punished, and also tells us what they have to do to be restored,

Again, Paul seperates saved Israel from saved Gentile in the passage, there is no need to do this if he is speaking of spiritual Israel.
Your wrong assumption is in thinking that the Jewish State of Israel is the only Israel.
The Bible makes it plain that Judah; the Jews, are only a small part of the original Israel. They are in fact; the House of Judah, separate from the House of Israel, which remains scattered among the nations today. THEY are the ones Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24

He was successful and we Christians are the result. Many scriptures say we are the recipients of all of God's promises, thru Jesus. Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, +
 
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Keraz

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The Times of the Gentiles comes to an end, with the sealing of the 144,000, when God again directs His attention to Israel following the opening of the 6th seal. Rev 7

After the sixth seal, the Times of the Gentiles are over as the 144,000 Jews are sealed, and the saints are raptured. Rev 7. "I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb". “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come OUT of the great tribulation. Rev 7:9-14
A lot of supposition and wrong thinking.
The Jews are not all of the 144.000. Only 2/12ths of them.

You have added a word to Rev 7. There is no 'the' in verse 14. Bad you!
Also it is incorrect to assume they are in heaven. Revelation 7 describes earthly scenes only. Proved by verses 1-3 and there is no change of location mentioned.