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Featured All the ELECT please stand up

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by CNKW3, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    P.S.
    Just a quick thought.
    Jesus does not need to draw to Himself "all" men He already has.
    It's not necessary.

    And those that are offended by Him have rejected Him.
    This only EMPHASIZES that WE HAVE FREE WILL.
    The free will to be offended...
    The free will to reject.
     
  2. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    Here is what you arrogated:
    GodsGrace said:
    Guess you don't realize that I was speaking to a calvinist.
    But your post is a good post because I've noticed that most (not all ) calvinists seem to have very little love in them.
    I do wonder why. Maybe because they have the sin of pride being that they are the CHOSEN FEW?
    My point was that if we choose God, we can know we are saved.
    If God does the choosing,,,how can anyone know they are saved?
    They cannot...and this is a problem with calvinism..the not knowing.

    Three villainous JUDGEMENTS --- are you, God; are you, Judge; are you, Elector, are you, The Omniscient; are you The Meek, Jesus?
    And your ultimate (fourth) insult directly implicating <<God>> who <<does the choosing>> as UNTRUSTWORTHY, in other words, as a LIAR:- Q~If God does the choosing,,,how can anyone know they are saved?~Q
     
  3. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn
    There is a point in time found nowhere but in the mind and soul of God’s elect where to believe, to know and to rest assured, are at once and one and the same.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  4. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I know it's difficult to actually reply to what is put forth to you and it's much easier to just
    insult the poster....

    But do you think you could possibly reply to my post no. 1100 ??

    If not, there is a problem with your theology.
    I have no problem replying to any verses because my theology, as is that of the mainline churches, is in keeping with God's word.

    You should worry more about yourself,,,making God out to be loveless, merciless and
    not just....instead of worrying about me and how I insult God.

    We'll see WHO is insulting to God when we come face to face with Him...

    In the meantime,,,please reply to my post no. 1100.

    Thanks.
     
  5. CNKW3

    CNKW3 Active Member

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    These statements are false. Jesus, who is Deity, said...
    Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

    Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them
    He could not say this if individuals were already chosen. He would have been a liar.

    Paul said...
    Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, OR to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
    What leads to righteousness? Obedience. The individual must choose one OR the other. He does not say God makes you choose obedience.
    To the contrary..
    Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    He is pleading for them to do this. He is not saying....dont worry, God does it for you.

    He also said...
    But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    This is a key point. One CANNOT be one of the elect unless their sins are forgiven.
    So
    At what point does the NT teach that sins are forgiven??? It is very specific about this point. But I find that NOBODY on this board will admit to it.
     
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  6. Kermos

    Kermos Active Member

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    The Elect/Chosen by God are specific individuals.

    The names of the individuals to be saved are known by God from the foundation of the world, for it is written "written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8) and "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

    When Lord Jesus says "For many are called, but few [are] chosen" (Matthew 22:14), His words are clearly about specific individuals - the few chosen/elect by God!

    When Lord Jesus says "the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28), His words are clearly about specific individuals - notice the ransom for MANY which is not ALL as in where Lord Jesus said He would DRAW all men to Himself (John 12:32). The elect/chosen are many in the Kingdom of God (Matthew 20:28), yet few coming out of the world (Matthew 22:14 and Matthew 7:13-14).

    When Lord Jesus issues the command "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Matthew 7:13-14), His words indicate that MANY PEOPLE THAT GO THROUGH THE BROAD WAY THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION; on the other hand, FEW PEOPLE GO THE WAY THAT LEADS TO LIFE which is through the work of God is persons believing that the Father sent Jesus (John 6:29) - faith/belief is the work of God not the work of man (Ephesians 2:8-9).

    When Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), He talks to specific individuals which are all believers in all time - not just the disciples there with Him - to all believers in all time.

    During the supper described by the Apostle John (John chapters 13 - 17), Lord Jesus pronounces the promise of the Holy Spirit (recorded in John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:7-11, John 16:13-14).

    Behold a couple of examples of the filling of the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts, where the about 120 were filled during Pentecost (Acts 1:15, Acts 2:1-4) as well as the later event at which Cornelius (was a centurion in the Italian cohort), his relatives, and his close friends upon whom the Holy Spirit fell (Acts 10:44).

    The Holy Spirit promised by Lord Jesus at the supper described in John chapters 13-17 was fulfilled to people that WERE NOT PHYSICALLY IN THE ROOM since Cornelius and his relatives and his close friends received the Holy Spirit!

    Thus, when Lord Jesus said "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, [that is] the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me" (John 15:26), that "you" is FOR ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME.

    Now, a mere 10 verses prior to John 15:26, we find John 15:16 where Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you". That "you" is FOR ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME.

    We know this also refers to the elect/choosen of God because a mere 3 verses later, Lord Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

    All of this fits nicely with the fact that nobody can see nor enter the Kingdom of God WITHOUT the work of God in being born again (John 3:3 and John 3:5). A PERSON CANNOT CAUSE THE SELF-SAME PERSON TO BE BORN, NOT EVEN BORN AGAIN. Thus there can be no obedience - which is truly fruit of the Spirit - with the work of God in a person.

    CONSIDERING 1 PETER 1:21-22

    The Apostle Peter is in accord with the Lord Jesus because the Apostle Peter gives glory to God for the purification of believer's souls when the Apostle Peter wrote "God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth" is revealed from the Greek (1 Peter 1:21-22).

    A look at an actual ancient manuscript is needed because it appears that many English translators are copying the error of many English translators.

    I looked, and I saw there was no punctuation in the Greek for this passage, and there were no verse numbers in the Greek for this passage, and there were no chapter indicators in the Greek of 1 Peter. WHAT IS ALSO REALLY INTERESTING, is the beginning of the 1st Peter chapter 2 because in the Greek there is a paragraph change that occurs ten words prior to 1 Peter 2:1; in other words, a paragraph change occurs inside of 1 Peter 1:25 - the final verse of 1 Peter 1.

    Even if, which it is not, even if Peter wrote "you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls" (1 Peter 1:22), the ONLY way that could happen is a work of God, but that English sequence of words is very broken from the Greek. The accurate writing of the Apostle Peter is "The-ones through Him believing into God the One rousing Him out of-dead-ones and esteem to Him giving as-besides the belief of-you and expectation to-be into God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth through Spirit into brotherly-affection unfeigned out of-clean heart one-another love-you earnestly" (1 Peter 1:21-22).

    Thus, the Apostle Peter is in accord with the Lord Jesus about God's work in man.

    Nowhere in the NT scripture does God declare that man chooses God; on the other hand, God does declare that God chooses man - and specific individuals.

    CNKW3, you and your free-will colleagues practice the sin of rebellion against God because you claim to choose Him Who said the He cannot be chosen by you (John 15:16). You chose a false god because Lord Jesus said you cannot choose Him (John 15:16). Your fruit is of the flesh because YOU CLAIM OWNERSHIP OVER YOUR CLAIMED OBEDIENCE - CNKW3, that is you sinning by trying to steal from God.

    God brings us born again elect/chosen into the Kingdom of God producing fruit of the Spirit - this is all by God's grace, mercy, and love - and only God causes us to believe and to be born again (John 3:3 and John 3:5 and John 6:29). All glory to God!

    THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  7. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    That's <the point> ALL men once for all settled myriads of years ago when Eve the mother of ALL men, like you now, tried, and unfortunately successful, sold her bright idea <we must ACCEPT or REJECT GOD> and the nonsense he told us about eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Which fact of all men' history still has not haunted your conscience enough.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  8. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I guess our "conversation" has ended.

    And another calvinist bites the dust
    because you can't even defend what you believe in.

    You NEVER answered my post 1100 BECAUSE YOU CANNOT.

    END.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  9. Kermos

    Kermos Active Member

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    God blesses with us Biblical history!

    Going back to ancient times, at the beginning God said let there be light and there was light (Genesis 1:3).

    A few days later, God created man and woman in God's likeness in God's image (Genesis 1:26-27).

    Then the devil went to the woman telling her that if she ate of the fruit of the tree that God forbade the man and woman to eat that she would become like God, and she ate and her husband with her (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:1-6, Matthew 19:4-6).

    Then God removed the man and woman from the Garden of Eden - banned by God (Genesis 3:23-24).

    Men and women still want to become like God.

    Israel, the nation, commited adultery with other nations - bowing the knee to false gods as recorded in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 3:8-11).

    Israel suffered severe punishment from God for Israel's unfaithfulness toward God (Jeremiah 52:1-34, Isaiah 20:1, 2 Kings 17:1-41).

    Adultery, premarital immoral relations included as well as pornographic usage, is rampant among the church with the Journal of Adolescent Health commissioned study of 2001 claiming that 88% of purity pledgers engaging in premarital intercourse (as reported in the ChristianPost.com). People engaging in unfaithfulness - people practicing defiance the very Word of God - people distorting marriage which God designed to be the image of the gloriously wonderful union of Christ and His Bride!

    The True Light coming into the world, Jesus Christ (John 1:9), has come in the flesh (John 1:14), died on the cross as payment for crimes of men and women against God (Acts 2:23, Hebrews 9:28), rose from the dead (Acts 2:24), acsended into heaven (Acts 1:9), and He is at the Father's right hand (Acts 2:33).

    Jesus sets people apart from the world and it's passions and it's lusts. Jesus makes people holy - a pure people set apart for the glory of God (Hebrews 2:11).

    Another insidious form of adultery is at work among the church. The adulteress claim of choosing God - a glory that Lord Jesus reserves to Himself because he said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

    There are men and women among the church that claim their own control to choose God unto salvation; on the other hand, God reserves control to choose people unto salvation (John 15:16).

    The devil tries to thwart God, but God prevails!

    People that claim to choose/accept Jesus engage in a futile battle against Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), for His word is clear "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5, see also John 15:16 and John 15:19) and "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20) that are all part of the supper the Apostle John wrote word of in John chapters 13-17.

    Respecting being born again, a person cannot cause self-birth; therefore, only God can cause a person to be born again (John 3:3 and John 3:5).

    Do not be deceived, belief/faith that the Father has sent Lord Jesus is the work of God (John 6:29).

    Behold, when the disciples asked, "Then who can be saved?" Lord Jesus gazed at them while answering, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:25-26); therefore, without exclusion, the King of Glory reserved all glory for salvation to Himself, so men and women are entirely dependent upon the King of Glory for salvation - we that are blessed to be in the Assembly of God by God's calling and God's choosing (Matthew 22:14), we are eternally grateful for His generously kind work in us, we who have done nothing, we who acknowledge that God did everything to the glory of God!

    Children of God boast about God's work.

    The depravedly lost boast in their selfish claim of their purported choice toward Jesus which conspicuously contradicts His word "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). The lost boast in their own volition - in their own "accept" - in their own "choice" - in their own "freewill". The lost try to steal God's glory. The volition is the lost's false god.

    Jesus, being God, reserves the glory of men and women's salvation unto Himself (Isaiah 42:8), and He left no quarter for successful attack against His control - any attack against Lord Jesus' control leads to defeat and destruction.

    Lord Jesus issued a declaration of the severe punishment for denying His word, "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48, see also Matthew 7:21-27 and Matthew 13:41-42)!
     
  10. CNKW3

    CNKW3 Active Member

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    You are just like the rest. All of this rambling but you won’t answer my question.....
    WHEN or AT WHAT POINT IS A PERSONS SINS FORGIVEN?
    The NT is SPECIFIC about that point. The NT is clear and plain about WHEN a persons sins are forgiven. A person CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT be one of the elect and still be in their sins.
    Please answer this very important question. I don’t need any more of your opinionated rambling. You answer this basic question and we will have our answer and understanding.
    I’ll even help by providing some passages for you....
    Acts 2:38, 3:19, 22:16; Rom 6:3,4,17,18; gal 3:26,27; Col 2:11-13; 1 pet 3:21. And there are more.
     
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  11. Kermos

    Kermos Active Member

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    We believers obey Lord Jesus living by the faith of the Son of God (Galatians 2:20) thus we keep His words by the control of the love of Christ Jesus Who is the Power of God (John 15:5, 2 Corinthians 5:14, 1 Corinthians 1:24). All this by God's Grace for God's Glory!

    BELIEF DEFINED BY LORD JESUS: Lord Jesus said belief in Jesus whom the Father sent is the work of God (John 6:29).

    God makes a person believe (John 6:29) which leads to obedience which is fruit of the Spirit (Matthew 7:16-20, John 3:3, John 3:5), and it is joy for we believers in our Lord Jesus Christ who has come in the flesh and is now in glory at the right hand of the Father in heaven! We redeemed have been released from all bondage - all work - all sin - for any good work is the work of God - our very faith - our very obedience - fruit of the Spirit - all bondage is covered by the Blood of Christ for we that have the faith bestowed by God (John 6:29, Matthew 19:28, Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 2:8-9)!

    We vessels of mercy rest in Christ (, Romans 9:23)!

    @GodsGrace and your confession denies the Power of God in your prideful claim of your obedience outside of Jesus - Lord Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) - your "choice" of your false god. Lord Jesus knows the NAMES of the individuals saved and to be saved from the foundation of the world, for it is written "written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8) and "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

    Lord Jesus said "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65). GodsGrace and CNKW3, the Father must grant for the believer to come to Christ - not the believer granting to come to Christ as this would violate Lord Jesus' words recorded in John 6:65 - not the believer conjuring up belief/faith to come to Christ as this would violate Lord Jesus' words recorded in John 6:29 - not by the choice of the believer as this would violate Lord Jesus' words recorded in John 15:16 - not by anything the without God because that would violate Lord Jesus' words recorded in John 15:5.

    Jesus is Lord and God (John 20:28), so LORD JESUS' WORDS MATTER!

    THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS.
     
  12. Kermos

    Kermos Active Member

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    Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

    Lord Jesus said "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

    You, CNKW3, do not receive Lord Jesus' sayings because you claim to choose Jesus at some level, so in your current state the Lord Jesus' words do apply to you whether you like it or not.

    By the way, I've quoted Lord Jesus about when we believers are saved, but it appears that you are either blind or arguing to puff yourself up.

    Also, your cited verses - some already covered previously - do not contradict Lord Jesus' words clearly showing the glory of God in man's salvation instead of man's glory of choice in man's salvation. Your desperate desire to find verses contradicting Lord Jesus' word very clearly illuminates your false narrative. You'll have to go through the previous posts that prove your interpretation wrong!

    And another thing, my previous post illuminates the error of "your obedience" - your claim which equates to your attempted theft of the fruit/working of the Holy Spirit.

    THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  13. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Gerhard has three problems:

    1. He has an improper understanding of the grace of God and the finished work of Christ.

    2. He chooses not to use plain straightforward English.

    3. He believes that Ebersoehn means "elect of God" (just kidding).
     
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  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Another false teaching promoted by Calvinism which is refuted by Scripture:

    "LOOK UNTO ME" = CHOOSE ME
    Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)

    "SEEK THE LORD" = CHOOSE ME
    And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply* [therefore] they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: (Acts 17:26,27)

    *What does archaic "haply" mean? It means "therefore".

    Strong's Concordance
    ara: therefore (an illative particle)
    Original Word: ἄρα
    Part of Speech: Particle, Disjunctive Particle
    Transliteration: ara
    Phonetic Spelling: (ar'-ah)
    Definition: therefore (an illative particle)
    Usage: then, therefore, since.

    Thayer's Greek Lexicon says "consequently". So the consequence of seeking the Lord will be to find Him, which totally demolishes the false Calvinistic idea of Total Depravity.

    Kermos has been repeated MISAPPLYING John 15:16. But now that Scripture has refuted him, he will not submit to the Word of God. He will continue to misapply that Scripture and others.
     
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  15. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    How can a person answer a good question when their theology is all wrong and nothing in scripture reconciles?

    THEY CANNOT.

    I give up after the 2nd try.
    (but I'm happy you don't).
     
  16. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    You forgot John 15:1 John 15:2 John 15:3 John 15:4 John 15:5 John 15:6

    I understand that it doesn't suit you and you pick and choose ONLY the verse that you seem to like.

    Unfortunately for you , the bible is one complete thought and cannot be separated.


    TO GOD ONLY BE THE GLORY.
    ALL HONOR AND GLORY ARE YOURS ALMIGHTY GOD.
     
  17. Grams

    Grams Well-Known Member

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    We are all given the chance to believe " listen" to some one that will try to help !!!!!
    And it is our choice to believe ! If we are spoken to in the right way that is ! !!!!!!!

    If not I do believe GOD will give us a chance when HE calls us all home............ Rapture that is.
    If we understand !!!!! or if we choose to believe Satan instead ?
     
  18. Kermos

    Kermos Active Member

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    "Look unto Me" is a command.

    A command does not convey ability. Here is an example from historical record:

    During the American Civil War, Confederate General Robert E. Lee issued the command for troops under his charge to assault Major General George G. Meade's Union positions on July 3, 1863, the last day of the Battle of Gettysburg.

    The infantry assault, now known as Pickett's Charge, was part of Lee's "general plan" to take Cemetery Hill and the network of roads it commanded.

    Approximately 12,500 men in nine infantry brigades advanced over open fields for three-quarters of a mile under heavy Union artillery and rifle fire.

    The Confederate casualty rate was over 50%.

    The Confederate army failed to achieve their target.

    The Union army remained in their position.

    As Confederate soldiers straggled back to the Confederate lines along Seminary Ridge, Lee feared a Union counteroffensive and tried to rally his center, telling returning soldiers and Wilcox that the failure was "all my fault". Pickett was inconsolable for the rest of the day and never forgave Lee for ordering the charge. When Lee told Pickett to rally his division for the defense, Pickett allegedly replied, "General, I have no division.

    Pickett's Charge - Wikipedia

    A command does not convey ability - unless God imputes the ability to obey the command (John 3:3, John 3:5, John 6:29, John 15:5, John 15:16).

    Regarding "seek the Lord", here are several points:

    1st we do not find the Apostle Paul saying "choose to seek the Lord".

    2nd we do not find the Apostle Paul saying "conjure up your free will to seek the Lord".

    3rd we do find Paul there proclaiming God - someone proclaiming (Romans 10:14).

    4th you better hear Lord Jesus "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65).

    All people that seek and come to the Lord do so by the Power of God for the Power of God says "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

    Enoch111, your gospel is not the Gospel of Grace, for God's Grace is truly "unearned love" that you claim to have earned by your volition. Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). You do not understand God's grace!

    Lord Jesus said "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

    Enoch111 has been repeatedly trying to defeat the Word of God Who said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), but Enoch111 fails again and again!

    You, Enoch111, do not receive Lord Jesus' sayings because you claim to choose Jesus at some level, so in your current state the Lord Jesus' words do apply to you whether you like it or not.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  19. Kermos

    Kermos Active Member

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    Well, GodsGrace, you who do not understand God's Grace. Grace is truly "unearned love" that you claim to have earned by your choosing of your false god because you cannot have chosen the True Lord Jesus Who said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). You do not understand God's Grace!

    That being written, John 15:1-6 are all about the Power of God, and here is what the Power of God said "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every [branch] that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither [can] you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." (John 5:1-6).

    Your graven image of yourself choosing God is against God.

    All honor is God's! All glory is God's! God chooses people, and God does not share glory with anyone for the salvation of man (Isaiah 42:8).
     
  20. Kermos

    Kermos Active Member

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    Grams, please see where Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so it can not be your choice to believe. Belief/Faith is the work of God (John 6:29).
     
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