All the ELECT please stand up

Kermos · Aug 25, 2019

John Caldwell · Aug 25, 2019

I agree with unconditional election on the part of God (God does not choose us because we chose Him, but the other way around).

That said, John 15:16 is should remain within the context Scripture has provided:

John 15:12-17 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.This I command you, that you love one another.

And the same is true of john 6:29.

John 6:26-29 Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal. Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

CNKW3 · Aug 26, 2019

Kermos said:
By the way, I've quoted Lord Jesus about when we believers are saved, but it appears that you are either blind or arguing to puff yourself up.

Also, your cited verses - some already covered previously -

You still didn’t answer. Why won’t you answer? And no! Yo have not dealt with the passages I cited in the past. Salvation is the forgiveness of sins. When you find the point at which a persons sins are forgiven you will find the point at which they are SAVED!

If I’m wrong then straighten me out and give me the right answer so I can learn....
At WHAT POINT is a persons sins forgiven? The Bible is specific.

CNKW3 · Aug 26, 2019

Kermos said:
+ "@CNKW3: Beholding Greek of 1 Peter 1:21-22 to see "God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth" NOT people purifying themselves RATHER God purifying people Post" (in this thread)

+ "@CNKW3: Vessels Of Mercy Obey God In God's Power Versus Vessels Of Destruction Deny God's Word In Their Own Sin Post" (in this thread)

+ "@CNKW3: Persists In Denial Of The Word Of God By CNKW3 Trying To Make The Apostle Peter Say Different Than Lord Jesus Post" (in this thread)

Where’s the one dealing with the forgiveness of sins? You said you had dealt with that. I don’t see that one. I dealt with your Greek in 1 pet 1 in post #1082. I showed where both Mounce and young’s literal translation show that it is the individual who “obeys to the purification of the soul.” I asked if you had some special Greek scholarship we needed to know about but you passed on that one.

You’re a false doctrine cliche....you take one or two passages and build an entire false doctrine around something like...
“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you”.
You take it completely out of context. You ignore who the contextual audience is and you ignore other passages that contradict your false position, like...
“Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you.”
This one is just a couple verses before your pet verse above. The word IF clearly implies choice, but you don’t care. One can choose to obey his commands or not. God doesn’t make you. If you choose not to he will allow you to go that way. Rom 1 clearly teaches that if you want to go the way of sin, God will let you. He doesn’t make you obey. Nowhere does the Bible teach that.

Kermos · Aug 26, 2019

John Caldwell said:
I agree with unconditional election on the part of God (God does not choose us because we chose Him, but the other way around).

That said, John 15:16 is should remain within the context Scripture has provided:

John 15:12-17 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.This I command you, that you love one another.

And the same is true of john 6:29.

John 6:26-29 Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal. Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

You repeat the same early termination of context error as Enoch111 as evidenced in this posting #633 in this thread.

Within the self-same passage that includes John 15:16, Lord Jesus contrasts believers (disciples) and the lost (world), and it is in this passage that Lord Jesus states:

"I chose you out of the world"
(John 15:19)

Remaining with the first point, this is certainly talking about salvation, and this declaration of the Sovereignty of God harkens right back to John 15:16 when King Jesus said:

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you"
(John 15:16)

Behold, Lord Jesus said "I chose you" in John 15:16 and "I chose you" in John 15:19. God chooses people unto salvation, and God does not stop there - for there are good works which has application with John 6:29! Before we visit some discussion about good works, let's look at John 15:12-19 for the context.

12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.
15 "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
17 "This I command you, that you love one another.
18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before [it hated] you.
19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

Prior to John 15:16, Lord Jesus revealed relationships when He talked about the vine, the vinedresser, and the branches. I do not want to summarize, so I include the passage:

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every [branch] that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither [can] you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and [so] prove to be My disciples.

Remaining with the fourth point, at the conclusion of verse 5, Lord Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing". A series of questions/answers with Bible citations provides clarity:

Can a person cause the new birth? No, it is the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-6).

Does a person willfully cause faith/belief in God within said person? No, it is a work of God (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10, John 1:12-13).

Can a person bring on repentance? No, God brings on repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10).

Is a person good? No, God alone is good (Mark 10:18).

Then, what about good works? Any good a believer performs is fruit of the Spirit - for any good works of a person are attributable to God (John 3:21, Galations 5:22-23). Good works are accomplished by God in the Creators vessels of mercy. Only believers can do good works because good works are fruit of the Spirit; on the other hand, unbelievers can not do good works because unbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit (however, God can use unbelievers to accomplish things).

See how apart from God a person can do nothing (John 15:5).

The context of John chapter 6 DOES NOT change the fact that Lord Jesus defined belief/faith when He said "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Belief is from God. Fruit of the Spirit is from God. It is all by God's grace, for God's glory. Praise to Lord Jesus, the Savior!

CNKW3 · Aug 26, 2019

Kermos said:
"Look unto Me" is a command.

A command does not convey ability. Here is an example from historical record:

During the American Civil War, Confederate General Robert E. Lee issued the command for troops under his charge to assault Major General George G. Meade's Union positions on July 3, 1863, the last day of the Battle of Gettysburg.

The infantry assault, now known as Pickett's Charge, was part of Lee's "general plan" to take Cemetery Hill and the network of roads it commanded.

Approximately 12,500 men in nine infantry brigades advanced over open fields for three-quarters of a mile under heavy Union artillery and rifle fire.

The Confederate casualty rate was over 50%.

The Confederate army failed to achieve their target.

The Union army remained in their position.

As Confederate soldiers straggled back to the Confederate lines along Seminary Ridge, Lee feared a Union counteroffensive and tried to rally his center, telling returning soldiers and Wilcox that the failure was "all my fault". Pickett was inconsolable for the rest of the day and never forgave Lee for ordering the charge. When Lee told Pickett to rally his division for the defense, Pickett allegedly replied, "General, I have no division.

Pickett's Charge - Wikipedia

What a horrible analogy. Why do people want to take human interaction and apply it to God as if it is the same? When God says....he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. This is a fact. If a person believes and is baptized they will be saved. When God makes a promise it will be kept.
God also says...that Jesus is the author of salvation to ALL THAT OBEY HIM. This too is a fact. Salvation comes through obedience to Christ.
When General lee says....charge this hill and we will be victorious? This is NOT A FACT. This is human strategy that may or may not work.

God gave us ALL the ability to be obedient to his will when he made humanity. If he didn’t then he was clearly unjust in punishing Adam and Eve and we know God is a just God.

Grams · Aug 26, 2019

Hello Kermos,

Well............ GOD is allowing us in this time !!!!!! To choose if we want to believe...
Satan still is pushing on some.....

If GOD was choosing us ,,,, we would all be going to heaven....... !!!!!!!
The thing is some will not believe............ they think they are smarter ......................

CNKW3 · Aug 26, 2019

Grams said:
Hello Kermos,

Well............ GOD is allowing us in this time !!!!!! To choose if we want to believe...
Satan still is pushing on some.....

If GOD was choosing us ,,,, we would all be going to heaven....... !!!!!!!
The thing is some will not believe............ they think they are smarter ......................

This is correct. And you know why this is correct? Because Paul tells us...
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
So why aren’t ALL MEN saved? Because most choose not to obey God’s will and accept the grace he has provided.

Kermos · Aug 26, 2019

CNKW3 said:
Where’s the one dealing with the forgiveness of sins? You said you had dealt with that. I don’t see that one. I dealt with your Greek in 1 pet 1 in post #1082. I showed where both Mounce and young’s literal translation show that it is the individual who “obeys to the purification of the soul.” I asked if you had some special Greek scholarship we needed to know about but you passed on that one.

You’re a false doctrine cliche....you take one or two passages and build an entire false doctrine around something like...
“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you”.
You take it completely out of context. You ignore who the contextual audience is and you ignore other passages that contradict your false position, like...
“Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you.”
This one is just a couple verses before your pet verse above. The word IF clearly implies choice, but you don’t care. One can choose to obey his commands or not. God doesn’t make you. If you choose not to he will allow you to go that way. Rom 1 clearly teaches that if you want to go the way of sin, God will let you. He doesn’t make you obey. Nowhere does the Bible teach that.

You failed to respond with Scripture to my citation of the Greek of 1 Peter 1:21-22. I cited the Greek word for word, and I'm doing it again - "The-ones through Him believing into God the One rousing Him out of-dead-ones and esteem to Him giving as-besides the belief of-you and expectation to-be into God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth through Spirit into brotherly-affection unfeigned out of-clean heart one-another love-you earnestly" (1 Peter 1:21-22).

YOU ARE WRONG, CNKW3, because the Apostle Peter wrote "God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth" which is agreement with Lord Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and all of this applies to all believers in all time.

CONTEXT OF JOHN 15

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

LORD JESUS'S PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).

Among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when people at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

THE SUPPER IN JOHN CHAPTERS 13 TO 17

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26) as well as God's exclusive role in choosing man (John 15:16) occur in the self-same supper recorded in John chapters 13 - 17.

THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE

Based on the above stated facts, Lord Jesus was addressing all believers in all time, so just as the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-15) is binding upon all believers in all time also binding is "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

This has already been covered in this thread, please see the first post on this page 57 for reference.

YOU ARE WRONG, CNKW3, because the "you" in John 15:16 applies to all believers in all time just like the "you" in John 15:26.

The word "if" does not denote ability.

The word "if" is a premise presentation construct.

Here is the typical logic structure for "if" statements:
IF <premise> THEN <conclusion>

The <premise> resolves to either TRUE or FALSE. The <premise> denotes a state of being (that is true or false), yet the <premise> does not inherently denote choice nor ability unless explicitly stated within the <premise>.

For example, "if you walk on the moon tomorrow night then I will eat a whole apple pie the next day". Neither the "if" nor the <premise> convey ability nor choice for you to walk on the moon; moreover, the <premise> can only be TRUE by ACTION or FALSE by INACTION. This describes action or inaction not choice.

Free will proponents confuse and conflate this point because persons are either a slave of righteousness (Romans 6:18) or a slave of sin (John 8:24). Apart from an act of God, the sinner acts evilly in sin; therefore, the sinner cannot choose God. Thus, we are right back to the words of Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you (John 15:16).

YOU ARE WRONG, CNKW3, the word IF does not convey ability to choose.

CNKW3, your gospel is not the Gospel of Grace, for God's Grace is truly "unearned love" that you claim to have earned by your volition. Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). You do not understand God's grace!

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS.

Kermos · Aug 26, 2019

Grams said:
Hello Kermos,

Well............ GOD is allowing us in this time !!!!!! To choose if we want to believe...
Satan still is pushing on some.....

If GOD was choosing us ,,,, we would all be going to heaven....... !!!!!!!
The thing is some will not believe............ they think they are smarter ......................

Well, Grams, the only way that you can write "To choose if we want to believe" is for you to contradict the word of the Living God, Lord Jesus Christ, Who said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Kermos · Aug 26, 2019

CNKW3 said:
What a horrible analogy. Why do people want to take human interaction and apply it to God as if it is the same? When God says....he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. This is a fact. If a person believes and is baptized they will be saved. When God makes a promise it will be kept.
God also says...that Jesus is the author of salvation to ALL THAT OBEY HIM. This too is a fact. Salvation comes through obedience to Christ.
When General lee says....charge this hill and we will be victorious? This is NOT A FACT. This is human strategy that may or may not work.

God gave us ALL the ability to be obedient to his will when he made humanity. If he didn’t then he was clearly unjust in punishing Adam and Eve and we know God is a just God.

It is a brutal analogy that conveys the point that a command does not convey ability.

You conflate command and promise.

You conflate "choose to believe" with "believe".

The only ones that can satisfactorally obey God are the ones that God causes to be born again to even be able to see the Kingdom of God (John 3:3).

You try to put obedience to the Kingdom of God before being born again.

God know the names of the people whom God will give belief/faith because it is written "written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8) and "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

We believers obey God's command thus receiving God's promise according to God's Power, grace, and mercy!

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS.

GerhardEbersoehn · Aug 26, 2019

CNKW3 said:
The word IF clearly implies choice, but you don’t care. One can choose to obey his commands or not. God doesn’t make you. If you choose not to he will allow you to go that way. Rom 1 clearly teaches that if you want to go the way of sin, God will let you. He doesn’t make you obey. Nowhere does the Bible teach that.

<Choice>, clearly implies 'IF' -- if GOD, before Choice. One inevitably chooses according to capability / capacity / nature / endowment. If you <care>, it's because God put in your heart and desire the will and ability through a "new heart" and a "right spirit .. He RESTORED in me". "Salvation restored unto me" depends solely on God, "O God, cast me not away from YOUR PRESENCE and take not away from me THY Holy Spirit .. thy FREE Spirit."

One not "restored" and not 'recreated' and not 'reborn', cannot, desires not and will not <choose to obey>. It is a fallacy. Only a LOST sinner given a "new heart" by God's "FREE SPIRIT, becomes "restored" and received "salvation". God doesn’t <make you> to do it or be it; He RE-MAKES you for doing his will and be taught by Him.
And-- <<If you choose not to>>, God will NOT, NEVER, <allow> you to go your own way which is the way to hell, because all already are dead in sin and wicked and lost in hell. Romans 1 clearly teaches that if you want to go the way of sin, God will not only let you; his justice demands and your own nature <make you> <<go the way of sin>>. Or God in his mercy SAVES you and <makes you> to live and obey. That is what the Bible teaches.

CNKW3 · Aug 26, 2019

Kermos said:
You failed to respond with Scripture to my citation of the Greek of 1 Peter 1:21-22. I cited the Greek word for word, and I'm doing it again - "The-ones through Him believing into God the One rousing Him out of-dead-ones and esteem to Him giving as-besides the belief of-you and expectation to-be into God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth through Spirit into brotherly-affection unfeigned out of-clean heart one-another love-you earnestly" (1 Peter 1:21-22).

YOU ARE WRONG, CNKW3, because the Apostle Peter wrote "God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth" which is agreement with Lord Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and all of this applies to all believers in all time.

Again...do you have some Greek scholarship we need to know about. You are giving me “Greek” but I gave you the translation from “Greek scholars”. Now, are you a “Greek Scholar”? If so, where and how much study did you receive?

CONTEXT OF JOHN 15

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

LORD JESUS'S PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).

Among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when people at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

THE SUPPER IN JOHN CHAPTERS 13 TO 17

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26) as well as God's exclusive role in choosing man (John 15:16) occur in the self-same supper recorded in John chapters 13 - 17.

THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE

Based on the above stated facts, Lord Jesus was addressing all believers in all time, so just as the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-15) is binding upon all believers in all time also binding is "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

This has already been covered in this thread, please see the first post on this page 57 for reference.

YOU ARE WRONG, CNKW3, because the "you" in John 15:16 applies to all believers in all time just like the "you" in John 15:26.

Jn 15:26 is for us today? Really? Let’s read in context which you don’t ever care to do....
John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
Whoever the “you” in verse 26 is had been with Christ from the beginning. I know YOU have not been with Christ from the beginning, so in context, we find that your teaching is in error. But you dont care.

The word "if" does not denote ability.

The word "if" is a premise presentation construct.

Here is the typical logic structure for "if" statements:
IF <premise> THEN <conclusion>

The <premise> resolves to either TRUE or FALSE. The <premise> denotes a state of being (that is true or false), yet the <premise> does not inherently denote choice nor ability unless explicitly stated within the <premise>.

For example, "if you walk on the moon tomorrow night then I will eat a whole apple pie the next day". Neither the "if" nor the <premise> convey ability nor choice for you to walk on the moon; moreover, the <premise> can only be TRUE by ACTION or FALSE by INACTION. This describes action or inaction not choice.

Free will proponents confuse and conflate this point because persons are either a slave of righteousness (Romans 6:18) or a slave of sin (John 8:24). Apart from an act of God, the sinner acts evilly in sin; therefore, the sinner cannot choose God. Thus, we are right back to the words of Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you (John 15:16).

YOU ARE WRONG, CNKW3, the word IF does not convey ability to choose.

CNKW3, your gospel is not the Gospel of Grace, for God's Grace is truly "unearned love" that you claim to have earned by your volition. Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). You do not understand God's grace!

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS.

IF you would quit using these crazy analogies and examples we might get some answers.
Walk on the moon??
Context describes how words are being used.
The teacher told my son....IF you do the extra credit you’ll get 10 extra points. Does he decide, through choice, whether or not to do the extra credit? Yes or no? Does he get 10 extra points IF he says no?
God disagrees with you. Look what he said to the first living people...
Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
God said they could rule over sin. They had the ability and power to do so. Why didn’t they?
Because they CHOSE not to.
So, can the word if imply choice? Of course it can.

CNKW3 · Aug 26, 2019

Kermos said:
It is a brutal analogy that conveys the point that a command does not convey ability.

You conflate command and promise.

You conflate "choose to believe" with "believe".

The only ones that can satisfactorally obey God are the ones that God causes to be born again to even be able to see the Kingdom of God (John 3:3).

Nowhere does the Bible say this. I notice you are not citing scriptural support for this nonsense.

You try to put obedience to the Kingdom of God before being born again.

God know the names of the people whom God will give belief/faith because it is written "written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8) and "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

We believers obey God's command thus receiving God's promise according to God's Power, grace, and mercy!

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS.

no I don’t. God does...
Christ is the author of eternal salvation to ALL THAT OBEY HIM.
Can one receive eternal salvation BEFORE obedience? No. Not according to God.

Can one receive forgiveness of sins BEFORE obedience? No...
Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
At what point does Paul say they received forgiveness of sins? After they had obeyed from the heart.

Obeying from the heart implies choice. God didn’t make them obey. If so, how could it be from the heart. God saves those of a broken spirit and contrite heart. The idea that God gives some a contrite saving heart but leaves others out is corrupt.
You’re a broken record that’ll never change. You’re too proud for that.

CNKW3 · Aug 26, 2019

GerhardEbersoehn said:
<Choice>, clearly implies 'IF' -- if GOD, before Choice. One inevitably chooses according to capability / capacity / nature / endowment. If you <care>, it's because God put in your heart and desire the will and ability through a "new heart" and a "right spirit ..

Why didn’t God give Adam and Eve a heart to obey? They were the most perfect creation in all the world. Everything else was good but Adam and Eve were “very good”. But according to you and your people God’s “very good” was not good enough. Nice one.. I’d hate to have to defend this doctrine.

Kermos · Aug 27, 2019

CNKW3 said:
Again...do you have some Greek scholarship we need to know about. You are giving me “Greek” but I gave you the translation from “Greek scholars”. Now, are you a “Greek Scholar”? If so, where and how much study did you receive?
...snip

1) "Who by him do believe in God" is the Apostle Peter giving glory to God for the faith/belief of believers (1 Peter 1:21).

2) "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth" the mistranslated English of the Apostle Peter which is a free-will illusion phrase (1 Peter 1:22).

3) "through the Spirit" the Apostle Peter's phrase immediately following the free-will illusion phrase.

CNKW3, even with your faulty translation of 1 Peter 1:22, the free-will illusion phrase is sandwiched between two phrases that clearly give the glory to God. The first being number (1) above revealing belief being the work of God as in John 6:29. The second being number (3) revealing that obedience is fruit of the Spirit.

You need to look an ancient manuscript in Greek of 1 Peter 1:21-22. You need to use a good Greek/English interlinear of 1 Peter 1:21-22. Write out the two verses in a single line, word by word, and that which I presented is revealed.

Now, back to the word for word Greek to English proper translation of the Apostle Peter "The-ones through Him believing into God the One rousing Him out of-dead-ones and esteem to Him giving as-besides the belief of-you and expectation to-be into God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth through Spirit into brotherly-affection unfeigned out of-clean heart one-another love-you earnestly" (1 Peter 1:21-22).

Here we find that number (2) above is wrongly translated into English because it is truly a third instance in this short passage about God's control with "God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth through Spirit" (1 Peter 1:21-22).

The Apostle Peter is in accord with the Lord Jesus when He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

You remain out of accord with the Lord Jesus when He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). This means that you chose a false god.

Enoch111 · Aug 27, 2019

Kermos said:
You remain out of accord with the Lord Jesus when He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). This means that you chose a false god.

You continue to harp on a Scripture which you keep on misapplying. And to claim that non-Calvinisitic Christians *chose a false god* is slander and blasphemy. Is there no end to your Calvinistic nonsense?

Kermos · Aug 27, 2019

CNKW3 said:
snip...Jn 15:26 is for us today? Really? Let’s read in context which you don’t ever care to do....
John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
Whoever the “you” in verse 26 is had been with Christ from the beginning. I know YOU have not been with Christ from the beginning, so in context, we find that your teaching is in error. But you dont care.
...snip

I previously referenced the Lord Jesus' words recorded in John 15:26-27, yet you do not understand. John chapters 13-17 are for us today! Your "Jn 15:26 is for us today" demonstrates the high degree of your misunderstanding of the scripture. The Apostle John has it there, so it is important (John 20:31)!

Since you got hung up on a single passage out of the five passages I mentioned about the promise of the Holy Spirit during the supper covered in John chapters 13 - 17, which cement the proof that Lord Jesus is talking to all believers in all time:

- John 14:16-17
- John 14:26
- John 15:26-27
- John 16:7-11
- John 16:13-15

Lord Jesus is with all we believers whom He chose (John 15:16) - from the beginning of God's imparting of faith (John 6:29) we believers are with Him from the beginning (John 15:27). Lord Jesus can say one thing with multiple meanings, and, in this case of John 15:26-27, (1) Lord Jesus is talking to the disciples and (2) Lord Jesus is talking to all believers in all time because Lord Jesus also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20) at the supper as well as John's words of "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31) - SO IT IS BELIEVING IN JESUS THAT MATTERS AND JESUS CHOOSES HIS OWN (John 10:14, John 15:16).

This means that the Lord Jesus' words apply to all believers in all time when He says "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, [that is] the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me" (John 15:26) - oh, and by the way, do not forget that "through the Spirit" in 1 Peter 1:21-22 because it shows concord with Lord Jesus' words right here!

Here are the more words of Lord Jesus during the supper about the Holy Spirit promise for we believers in all time as recorded by the Apostle John, "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear [them] now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose [it] to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose [it] to you." (John 16:7-15).

Behold a couple of examples of the filling of the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts, where the about 120 were filled during Pentecost (Acts 1:15, Acts 2:1-4) as well as the later event at which Cornelius (was a centurion in the Italian cohort), his relatives, and his close friends upon whom the Holy Spirit fell (Acts 10:44).

The Holy Spirit promised by Lord Jesus at the supper described in John chapters 13-17 was fulfilled to people that WERE NOT PHYSICALLY IN THE ROOM since Cornelius and his relatives and his close friends received the Holy Spirit!

Thus, when Lord Jesus said "you" in John 16:7-15 and "you" in John 15:16 then He made that "you" be FOR ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME.

CKNW3, since you deny Lord Jesus words, in your current state, it cannot go well for you. You do not receive the sayings of Lord Jesus, and Lord Jesus said this "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

The aforementioned scriptures fits nicely with the fact that nobody can see nor enter the Kingdom of God WITHOUT the work of God in being born again (John 3:3 and John 3:5). A PERSON CANNOT CAUSE THE SELF-SAME PERSON TO BE BORN, NOT EVEN BORN AGAIN. Thus there can be no obedience - which is truly fruit of the Spirit - with the work of God in a person.

Kermos · Aug 27, 2019

CNKW3 said:
snip...
IF you would quit using these crazy analogies and examples we might get some answers.
Walk on the moon??
Context describes how words are being used.
The teacher told my son....IF you do the extra credit you’ll get 10 extra points. Does he decide, through choice, whether or not to do the extra credit? Yes or no? Does he get 10 extra points IF he says no?
God disagrees with you. Look what he said to the first living people...
Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
God said they could rule over sin. They had the ability and power to do so. Why didn’t they?
Because they CHOSE not to.
So, can the word if imply choice? Of course it can.

The analogies work perfectly to demonstrate the truth as God has me present.

Let's just have a look-see at Genesis 4:7 - which is the Old Testament - Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) in the New Testament.

"If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." (Genesis 4:7)

1) God did not say "you have the ability to choose to do well"

2) God said "If you do well", that premise does not imply choice, no. That premise can be proven out by ACTION.

3) God said "if you do not do well", that premise does not imply choice, no. That premise can be proven out by ACTION.

4) Cain killed Abel; therefore, Cain did not do well.

5) Thus Cain did an action, there is NO mention of choice.

The word "if" does not denote ability.

The word "if" is a premise presentation construct.

Here is the typical logic structure for "if" statements:
IF <premise> THEN <conclusion>

The <premise> resolves to either TRUE or FALSE. The <premise> denotes a state of being (that is true or false), yet the <premise> does not inherently denote choice nor ability unless explicitly stated within the <premise>.

For example, "if you walk on the moon tomorrow night then I will eat a whole apple pie the next day". Neither the "if" nor the <premise> convey ability nor choice for you to walk on the moon; moreover, the <premise> can only be TRUE by ACTION or FALSE by INACTION. This describes action or inaction not choice.

Free will proponents confuse and conflate this point because persons are either a slave of righteousness (Romans 6:18) or a slave of sin (John 8:24). Apart from an act of God, the sinner acts evilly in sin; therefore, the sinner cannot choose God. Thus, we are right back to the words of Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you (John 15:16).

YOU ARE WRONG, CNKW3, you fail to understand this fundamental grammatical construct - the word IF does not convey ability to choose.

Kermos · Aug 27, 2019

CNKW3 said:
Nowhere does the Bible say this. I notice you are not citing scriptural support for this nonsense.

no I don’t. God does...
Christ is the author of eternal salvation to ALL THAT OBEY HIM.
Can one receive eternal salvation BEFORE obedience? No. Not according to God.

Can one receive forgiveness of sins BEFORE obedience? No...
Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
At what point does Paul say they received forgiveness of sins? After they had obeyed from the heart.

Obeying from the heart implies choice. God didn’t make them obey. If so, how could it be from the heart. God saves those of a broken spirit and contrite heart. The idea that God gives some a contrite saving heart but leaves others out is corrupt.
You’re a broken record that’ll never change. You’re too proud for that.

You write "Nowhere does the Bible say this. I notice you are not citing scriptural support for this nonsense", but I cited John 3:3 as scriptural proof. I also cited John 3:16 that states "believe" not "choose to believe" along with John 6:29 that defines belief. I also provided accurate word for word Greek to English of 1 Peter 1:21-22 which supports born again coming before obedience ("through the Spirit" in 1 Peter 1:22). Here are all of these verses:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

"The-ones through Him believing into God the One rousing Him out of-dead-ones and esteem to Him giving as-besides the belief of-you and expectation to-be into God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth through Spirit into brotherly-affection unfeigned out of-clean heart one-another love-you earnestly" (1 Peter 1:21-22)

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16)

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

Here's another word from Lord Jesus

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

OBEDIENCE DEFINED

Choice is not the definition of obey. The definition of obey is "to fulfill the command" - there is no "choice" in that definition. Obedience does not imply choice. Obedience is action. OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS A FUNCTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH RESUTLS FROM A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER GETTING THE HOLY SPIRIT AT THE NEW BIRTH FROM GOD ABOVE.

CKNW3, you do not receive the sayings of Lord Jesus such as "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as Lord Jesus said this "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

All the ELECT please stand up

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