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Behold

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As for the use of pass tense, the point that Paul has made, is that as long as we remain in the flesh, we struggle-"

Let look at what Paul is actually talking about.

Notice ScottA...>"in the flesh" "we struggle"..... as you have paraphrased, Paul

Now, in Galatians, Paul says of those who have "fallen from Grace'....>"who has bewitched you, that you NO LONGER OBEY THE TRUTH"
And what does he say has happened to them..to these born again believers?
He says....= you started in the Spirit, but now you are trying to work your way to heaven......how ?? "in the FLESH".

see that?
That is not the body......That is Paul describing broken FAITH, in the MIND, in the BELIEVING HEART.... that has "fallen from GRACE", and has become a belief system that is "in the FLESH">

See that Reader?
And that is the problem you are having, if you are struggling with guilt and condemnation over your deeds..... that is keeping you from becoming what Paul became and remained....as this...>""Christ always gives me THE Victory".
What Victory? "Victory over the World the FLESH, and the DEVIL""

IN this case, the FLESH is a broken faith, a wrong understanding of "Salvation"... that has blocked God's Grace from empowering you to be able to : "Christ ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.... GIVES....GIVES....GIVES..... ME .....THE VICTORY".

SEE THAT?

So, this means that if your faith is broken....if its WRONG FAITH.... its..."in the FLESH", ..its you trying to be good, and expect to be able to live holy, based on trying.
And That can never happen,.... as to live HOLY< ......TO LIVE HOLY>......not be holy (spiritually) , as you are already "made righteous" if you are born again......but HOW to exist in the holy lifestyle, that is a perfected discipleship, that has no more sinning and confessing & repenting.........again and again, for all your Christian Life...
To stop that, you have to get your faith right... and when you do......then "CHRIST always gives me the Victory".

"ALWAYS"......not occasionally.


So, sinning, or as Paul defines these deeds "under Grace" as= "works of the FLesh"......... can be eliminated, but not if you are "in the Flesh" regarding your FAITH/Theology/Belief System.
And that is a FAITH and THEOLOGY issue, that is a SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS Issue. Or as Paul says.>>"who has BEWITCHED you"... blinded you, conned you........DECEIVED YOU.......and often you did it to yourself.

Listen, IF you are still living in that place of broken faith, then your life is confessing sin and repenting, and you are guilt tripping and feel condemned a lot.
There is no Joy, no freedom, no VICTORY.

So.....Get your faith/theology right ... = Hebrews 13:9......
and you will be able to find the Grace of God, as its meant to empower you to live Holy. =
= "Christ ALWAYS gives me the VICTORY".


Saint when you are trying to work your way into heaven, and are trying to keep from going to hell..... this thinking and this believing.....means you are not "obeying the TRUTH", and you are "fallen from Grace".

Get your FAITH right.
 
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ScottA

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Let look at what Paul is actually talking about.

Notice ScottA...>"in the flesh" "we struggle"..... as you have paraphrased, Paul

Now, in Galatians, Paul says of those who have "fallen from Grace'....>"who has bewitched you, that you NO LONGER OBEY THE TRUTH"
And what does he say has happened to them..to these born again believers?
He says....= you started in the Spirit, but now you are trying to work your way to heaven......how ?? "in the FLESH".

see that?
That is not the body......That is Paul describing broken FAITH, in the MIND, in the BELIEVING HEART.... that has "fallen from GRACE", and has become a belief system that is "in the FLESH">

See that Reader?
And that is the problem you are having, if you are struggling with guilt and condemnation over your deeds..... that is keeping you from becoming what Paul became and remained....as this...>""Christ always gives me THE Victory".
What Victory? "Victory over the World the FLESH, and the DEVIL""

IN this case, the FLESH is a broken faith, a wrong understanding of "Salvation"... that has blocked God's Grace from empowering you to be able to : "Christ ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.... GIVES....GIVES....GIVES..... ME .....THE VICTORY".

SEE THAT?

So, this means that if your faith is broken....if its WRONG FAITH.... its..."in the FLESH", ..its you trying to be good, and expect to be able to live holy, based on trying.
And That can never happen,.... as to live HOLY< ......TO LIVE HOLY>......not be holy (spiritually) , as you are already "made righteous" if you are born again......but HOW to exist in the holy lifestyle, that is a perfected discipleship, that has no more sinning and confessing & repenting.........again and again, for all your Christian Life...
To stop that, you have to get your faith right... and when you do......then "CHRIST always gives me the Victory".

"ALWAYS"......not occasionally.


So, sinning, or as Paul defines these deeds "under Grace" as= "works of the FLesh"......... can be eliminated, but not if you are "in the Flesh" regarding your FAITH/Theology/Belief System.
And that is a FAITH and THEOLOGY issue, that is a SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS Issue. Or as Paul says.>>"who has BEWITCHED you"... blinded you, conned you........DECEIVED YOU.......and often you did it to yourself.

Listen, IF you are still living in that place of broken faith, then your life is confessing sin and repenting, and you are guilt tripping and feel condemned a lot.
There is no Joy, no freedom, no VICTORY.

So.....Get your faith/theology right ... = Hebrews 13:9......
and you will be able to find the Grace of God, as its meant to empower you to live Holy. =
= "Christ ALWAYS gives me the VICTORY".


Saint when you are trying to work your way into heaven, and are trying to keep from going to hell..... this thinking and this believing.....means you are not "obeying the TRUTH", and you are "fallen from Grace".

Get your FAITH right.
Thank you.

I would say, the common objection and the adoption of a different doctrine against these truths as some prescribe to, is quite simply a lack of understanding the hard saying, that in being born [again] of the spirit of God, and thus "saved", that "we [actually] "were crucified" and "were raised up with Christ." Past tense.

My understanding of Paul's explanation and confession of the struggles we continue to experience in the flesh, simply shows a dividing line between the flesh and the Spirit, which all of scripture supports. And it is that dividing line that defines where and when salvation begins. This is what is meant by "passing from death to life."
 
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Behold

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As for the use of pass tense, the point that Paul has made, is that as long as we remain in the flesh, we struggle--not unto failure or loss of salvation, but for "those who live according to the Spirit", to triumph in Christ--"always."

The "struggle" you keep bringing up, that Paul is talking about....
If you read more...that he wrote, instead of STOPPING where you stopped in your commentary, then you will find that Paul is TEACHING.
He's not just giving a personal testimony, of..>"i keep trying but i keep failing".......as you think, and believe you are supposed to be doing as you have been taught by people who are not very good bible students, or Believers.
See, you didnt read more that Paul wrote to finish this teaching, as if you had kept going, you would read that Paul comes to a place of : "VICTORY". "ALWAYS".. "CHRIST GIVES ME"

See that?
No you didnt, as if you had you would not be stuck in the ..."that which i do i dont want to do" BEGINNING of the TEACHING where most people STOP and GET STUCK...in their Faith.

You have not gone past the opening of the teaching, where Paul said...>"that which i dont want to do i do".
You are STUCK THERE, Scott......NOW READ THE REST, as that is what IM TEACHING.

Maybe you need to put your commentaries down, and read a NEW TESTAMENT instead ....

If you do......then keep reading past the part where Paul talks about "and that which i want to do, i dont do"..

KEEP GOING SCOTT, and if you do, you'll come to the Place where Paul ends the Teaching, which is were you have not gone Yet.

Paul ends the teaching with...>>"Christ always Gives ME THE VICTORY".

He's not stuck anymore, Scott.
He's not back there in "that which i want to do i dont do".......where you are found, theologically., as are MOST.

C'mon.
Wake up.

 
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ScottA

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The "struggle" you keep bringing up, that Paul is talking about....
If you read more...that he wrote, instead of STOPPING where you stopped in your commentary, then you will find that Paul is TEACHING.
He's not just giving a personal testimony, of..>"i keep trying but i keep failing".......as you think, and believe you are supposed to be doing as you have been taught by people who are not very good bible students, or Believers.
See, you didnt read more that Paul wrote to finish this teaching, as if you had kept going, you would read that Paul comes to a place of : "VICTORY". "ALWAYS".. "CHRIST GIVES ME"

See that?
No you didnt, as if you had you would not be stuck in the ..."that which i do i dont want to do" BEGINNING of the TEACHING where most people STOP and GET STUCK...in their Faith.

You have not gone past the opening of the teaching, where Paul said...>"that which i dont want to do i do".
You are STUCK THERE, Scott......NOW READ THE REST, as that is what IM TEACHING.

Maybe you need to put your commentaries down, and read a NEW TESTAMENT instead ....

If you do......then keep reading past the part where Paul talks about "and that which i want to do, i dont do"..

KEEP GOING SCOTT, and if you do, you'll come to the Place where Paul ends the Teaching, which is were you have not gone Yet.

Paul ends the teaching with...>>"Christ always Gives ME THE VICTORY".

He's not stuck anymore, Scott.
He's not back there in "that which i want to do i dont do".......where you are found, theologically., as are MOST.

C'mon.
Wake up.
No...I not only saw it, I quoted it.

Perhaps it is you who are not awake, and did not read my whole post...and where the seed was born that causes you to accuse me of following commentaries rather than the word of God, from which you now bear fruit.
 

Jay Ross

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Jay,
During my seminary training, i studied manuscript evidence.
Other then that, i dont spend any time with "greek" texts.
Also, i find that many who do, are liars.. What i mean is.... you find the types on Forums, who can't read Koine Greek, or can barely.....and so what they do, is buy these Texts, and in them, someone has translated the Greek.. So, these morons pretend that they "read greek", but what they read is the english translation that is created by the person, inside their greek text.
See that? That is not "reading the Greek", that is reading what the translator said, and pretending that you can read it.... So, I have no use for this type of PRETENDER....
YOu can see my point?

Im a bible believer. I preach the Bible, the New Testament.....Pauline Theology.
So, the rabbit hole of "original greek" nonsense, i will not fall into, so, i would not want to get into a dialog about "what the greek says"., as when i want to know that, i open a English bible.

Beholder, thanks for your display of distain of me is your above ranting. So you went and had seminary training, so what, it has not helped you to study and understand the scriptures.

The definition of accuracy that I use for the transmission of written thoughts between people is that the reader of the transmitted words does come to the same understanding of what the writer was writing and intended to convey to the reader. Sadly our English translations do not always meet this accuracy standard in the translation of the Greek into our English Language.

You then went on to answer my simple question of what you meant and understood the Greek word translated as "new" meant.

The contextual meaning of "new" that you provided tells me that I am not good enough for God as I am and that I must become "brand new" person. That God does not love me as I am, and that I am not acceptable to be drawn to God, so that He can transform me by beginning the process of renewing my mind.

The Parable of the 'New wine in the "New" wineskins,"' demonstrates this point very well, when the contextual meanings of the Greek words are understood.

So, here is what is "new"....that you are referring to..

"New Creation" ... "In Christ".

So, what is the "new"?
Its the born again Spirit, that has become a 'new Creation" in Christ.
That is not your body, and its not your mind....its the BORN AGAIN SPIRIT in a person that is created by God's Holy Spirit as a ""NEW Creation".

Thank you for providing the answer to my question of the message you were trying to provide.

From my understanding of reading what Paul has written, he often spoke of the need for people to renew their minds and the need to then cloak themselves with this "renewed" mind set in Christ such that they become "like a new" person as they step out in Christ.

In other words, people are to put on the refurbished personhood of who God intended us to be, from the very beginning of time.

This is more in keeping with what Paul taught.

Shalom
 

Behold

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Beholder, thanks for your display of distain of me is your above ranting.
You then went on to answer my simple question of what you meant and understood the Greek word translated as "new" meant.
The contextual meaning of "new" that you provided tells me that I am not good enough for God as I am and that I must become "brand new" person.

I never mentioned you in my previous post.
I only categorized a certain type of Forum Faker, who pretends to be a Greek Text authority, and in fact can barely read Koine Greek, or can't even read it at all.
We find these "greek text authorities", these "bible correctors", plaguing up Pulpits, and Forums, world wide.
I pointed out that the way you spot these incredible pretenders, is by noting that they cant actually handle a Greek Lexicon, but they read the translation, then pretend they can read the greek copy itself. Then they show up on Forums or in Pulpits to pollute the bible with their "exegesis".
This is worldwide and rampant, in these end times.

Also, i said nothing about you becoming a "new person", nor does Christ when He speaks to us with regard to our spirit being "born again".

So, that is what i said.....I said a "new Creation"......"in Christ".
Not a good person, in the world.
But a SPIRITUALLY regenerated SPIRIT that exists as "in Christ", ..."One with God".
We must have this "new Creation" of our Spirit as "born again" or we do not go to heaven.
 

Behold

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...And the last part:

No you didnt.
And so, here is how this is going to work out.
You are on my Thread.....im not on yours.
So, you can believe that Heresy will be denied here, on my Thread.
Believe it.

So, if you want to teach that the "flesh struggle" can't be overcome, which denies the Grace of God and Paul's teaching, then do it on YOUR Thread....Scott.
Understand?
Or, listen and learn, on mine.
Ask a question.
Dialog.
But do not post your theological junk, here.

Now here is what you wrote.......>I'll quote it.

""He then explains the struggle of those saved as he himself also struggled, that seeing that in himself there was still the law of sin in his flesh, but in his mind the law of God, for which he said, "thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ."'""""

So, you are teaching that Paul's flesh struggle continued, while at the same time, he understood "thanks be to God, for the Triumph"..

See the problem?
Here is the problem. Paul can't be struggling in the Flesh and have a Triumph over it.

Yet you are teaching that Paul understood a spiritual principle, that was not working.....as you stated he was still "struggling".

And Paul does not teach that.... He teaches that He got out of the flesh struggle, BECAUSE..."Christ always gives him the Victory"......not just in his MIND< as you are teaching,....but in his Discipleship.....His actual Christian Walk.

Now, if you want to back it up, and walk it back, and say...>"well i meant that he USE to have the flesh struggle, but not after he learned how to : "Christ always Gives Him the Victory"....

If you want to try that new theological position...... then go right ahead, as that one will work on my Thread.
 

Jay Ross

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So @Behold, in the parable of the "New Wine in the New Wineskins," is Christ saying that "new" wineskins must be used to hold the freshly squeezed grape juice otherwise the wineskins will burst?

Is that what you are suggesting is the meaning of this parable?
 

Behold

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So @Behold, in the parable of the "New Wine in the New Wineskins," is Christ saying that "new" wineskins must be used to hold the freshly squeezed grape juice otherwise the wineskins will burst?

Is that what you are suggesting is the meaning of this parable?


Lets look at "new Creation".....literally.

New creation of what, by Whom?

"New Creation" in Christ.

"Christ IN YOU...the Hope of Glory."

So, for Jesus to be IN YOU, is something NEW.....as before He was not in you.

And now that Yeshua has come to reside in you, His Spirit in union with the born again Spirit in the person....= born again, because of this......Then the person, the born again believer has become....>"The Temple of the Holy Spirit", ""which Spirit is CHRIST""

Paul explains it this way......

2 Corinthians 5:17

17 """Therefore if any person be IN Christ, he is a NEW creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become NEW.""
 

ScottA

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No you didnt.
And so, here is how this is going to work out.
You are on my Thread.....im not on yours.
So, you can believe that Heresy will be denied here, on my Thread.
Believe it.

So, if you want to teach that the "flesh struggle" can't be overcome, which denies the Grace of God and Paul's teaching, then do it on YOUR Thread....Scott.
Understand?
Or, listen and learn, on mine.
Ask a question.
Dialog.
But do not post your theological junk, here.

Now here is what you wrote.......>I'll quote it.

""He then explains the struggle of those saved as he himself also struggled, that seeing that in himself there was still the law of sin in his flesh, but in his mind the law of God, for which he said, "thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ."'""""

So, you are teaching that Paul's flesh struggle continued, while at the same time, he understood "thanks be to God, for the Triumph"..

See the problem?
Here is the problem. Paul can't be struggling in the Flesh and have a Triumph over it.

Yet you are teaching that Paul understood a spiritual principle, that was not working.....as you stated he was still "struggling".

And Paul does not teach that.... He teaches that He got out of the flesh struggle, BECAUSE..."Christ always gives him the Victory"......not just in his MIND< as you are teaching,....but in his Discipleship.....His actual Christian Walk.

Now, if you want to back it up, and walk it back, and say...>"well i meant that he USE to have the flesh struggle, but not after he learned how to : "Christ always Gives Him the Victory"....

If you want to try that new theological position...... then go right ahead, as that one will work on my Thread.
Not that you deserve the consideration after blathering away with more behavior unbecoming of a Christian, but no, you are not hearing yourself. So for the sake of those who may continue reading on "your thread" (for crying out loud), I will explain your error:

When you quote Paul saying "Christ always gives him the Victory" you are making his point and also mine, but contradicting yourself. You see, or should see but apparently have not, the fact that Paul says Christ "always" gives him victory, tells us that it is a "struggle" that is ongoing. He does not say Christ "gave me" as if to say "I am done with that struggle", but he says "always." Which is why I thanked you in a previous post--because it is the key to the grace of God during these times.

Which means you have been projecting those unChristian accusations at me from your own misunderstanding and error. Nonetheless, if you would like to begin from this point on in your thread by reckoning with the true of what Paul actually stated, I am all for it. Otherwise, you are doing just what you accused me of...which I have already given correction for, so it will be on you.

You decide.
 
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Jay Ross

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Paul explains it this way......

2 Corinthians 5:17

17 """Therefore if any person be IN Christ, he is a NEW creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become NEW.""

Fair enough. Now if Paul was talking about a "new" car, was the car, brand "new" with respect to age, or was the car not brand new but refurbished to be like "new," but still an old car.

Our English translations make understanding the contextual intent of Paul's writings difficult to comprehend.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Being "alive and remain" has to do with salvation, alive in the Spirit, but remaining in the world-- which is the topic of discussion.

What you quoted had to do with the second coming of Christ. There was a rumor that Christ had already come, and that those who had died had missed it. It was false. It also said, that Jesus would come back with those who sleep in Jesus. Those are the dead, not the alive who were raptured in some secret rapture up to seven years before every eye saw Him.

1 Thes. 4:
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 

Behold

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When you quote Paul saying "Christ always gives him the Victory" you are making his point and also mine, but contradicting yourself. You see, or should see but apparently have not, the fact that Paul says Christ "always" gives him victory, tells us that it is a "struggle"

Again, you are just proving that you dont believe that Christ Gives the Victory , that Paul is explaining he exists within, so that the flesh struggle that was before his total misery is now solved as.... "Christ always gives me the victory".
This is Paul who later says...>"as many as be Perfect".
And you can believe Paul when He tells you that you can be "perfect".

See, here is the wonder of God's Grace.... Its this.....God does not give His Holy Spirit and the Power of Christ to His redeemed by the Blood of Jesus, so that God's "Temple's of the Holy Spirit"....His Saints....>God's "Joint Heirs with Christ".... can then exist ONLY in the same carnal behavior, as an unbeliever is trapped within as their lifestyle.
Now you dont want to believe that the born again are to exist here....>"Christ always gives me the Victory"....and that is unfortunate for you.
You are stuck in that mindset, that is not allowing Christ to provide you deliverance.
You are in the "that which i would do i dont do"..issue, which is a theology and faith issue.....and you will stay there for as long as you refuse to believe Paul.
You decide.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Actually that isn't how it works.......as what you just said is.. My paraphrase....>"if you stop your sinning, you go to heaven, but if you keep sinning you go to hell".

God says....>"all that believe in my Son, i will turn into my Son".....and that is the only reason you go to heaven, or not.

"sinning" has nothing to do with it.

Also, Roman's 4:8, does not say that the born again never commit these deeds, that the law defines as SIN, but it says that God does not charge the born again with their sin.


John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Jesus TAKES AWAY our sin nature so that we cannot actually sin. That is what is different about the New Covenant than the Old Covenant that Romans 4 was about.

Behold: I pray you read this and more importantly the Spirit of God reveals the truth.

Romans 6:
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
 

farouk

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John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Jesus TAKES AWAY our sin nature so that we cannot actually sin. That is what is different about the New Covenant than the Old Covenant that Romans 4 was about.
1 John 2.1: "And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous'...
 

Behold

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Fair enough. Now if Paul was talking about a "new" car, was the car, brand "new" with respect to age, or was the car not brand new but refurbished to be like "new," but still an old car.

Our English translations make understanding the contextual intent of Paul's writings difficult to comprehend.


The process of getting rid of the bad, reveals the good.
If you get rid of what isn't true, then what is finally revealed that is still standing, is the truth.

Most "bibles' are not bibles......."new" bibles, are created to teach denominational theology.
They are heresy, with just enough truth in them, to fool those who are not students of the word.
There are very few true "bibles"..

To discover the bad ones...the fakes, the junk........use 2 verses.

Notice in 1Timothy 3:16........If the verse says...>"GOD was manifested in the Flesh" then that bible is going to be ok....... However if that bible says...>"he, was manifest in the flesh"....then that bible has removed a Deity of Christ proof, and that bible is junk.

Notice John 4:24.....If the bible says...>>"God is A Spirit".........then that bible is going to be ok. But if it says...>"God is Spirit", then that bible makes no distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Unholy Spirit, so, that bible is junk.
 

1stCenturyLady

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1 John 2.1: "And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous'...

farouk, did you purposely remove the first part that showed that IT IS POSSIBLE TO NOT SIN??? !!!

That is what denominations want to claim - that we will never be free from sin. Once you have told yourself that enough, there is no hope for you.

We must not only know the truth: we are dead to sin. Romans 6:2
We must also believe that truth in order to walk in it. Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

farouk

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farouk, did you purposely remove the first part that showed that IT IS POSSIBLE TO NOT SIN??? !!!

That is what denominations want to claim - that we will never be free from sin. Once you have told yourself that enough, there is no hope for you.

We must not only know the truth: we are dead to sin. Romans 6:2
We must also believe that truth in order to walk in it. Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I do believe that we rest in principle in the finished work of Christ at the Cross, while if we are overtaken in a fault (Galatians 6.1) there can be restoration to communions and indeed the believer's Advocate (1 John 2.1) upholds and strengthens.