Okay Vet, I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt because in many cases you do seem to do your homework, however, if you want to be taught how to do a line by line, precept upon precept study, then I'll show you. BTW, Yes, I first heard of pre-wrath by men but it's the Holy Spirit which affirmed it in my heart and from decades of personal study there are many areas in which I break from the standards of pre-wrath, but still believe the basic outline is God's truth, not mans! Let's go from Rev. 6:14- Rev. 8:6.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The phrase "is come" of vs. 17 is in the present/future tense and means, "it's about to come". As of vs. 17, the wrath of the Lamb is about to come and men are aware of that because of the signs of the 6th seal, but it hasn't started yet. As Paul taught, the rapture will occur "in the twinkling of an eye". So as God foreknows who these 144,000 Israelites are, they are sealed in half a twinkle, immediately after the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal!
What you've done is skip the Rev.6:14-15 verses totally and their specific timing...
Rev 6:14-15
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(KJV)
Notice those verses I quote are NOT in any 'present/future tense'. John sees the events of those two verses happen first, and then... notes what they begin to say per the Rev.6:16-17 verses. So what specific timing is that? It's "day of the Lord" timing, because that's when those events above occur (per Isa.34; Isa.2:12-22; Isa.24:21-23
; Rev.16:19-20; 2 Pet.3:10; Heb.12:25-29, etc.). In other words, the change at the twinkling of an eye has happened by that point between Rev.6:14-15 and Rev.6:16-17.
It's as I've always said, the time of Christ's coming, our gathering to Him, the end of this world with God's consuming fire of 2 Pet.3:10, the coming great shaking in Jerusalem per the Zech.14 events, end of the tribulation, all occur on that same day. That's why those events are tied to the events of the final trumpet and final vial. That means God's sealing of His servants happens PRIOR to those 6th Seal events.
But you're holding to a tradition of men with that idea 144,000 Israelites being sealed AFTER... those 6th Seal events. I've already shown you per the Rev.9 Scripture that God's sealing takes place either prior to the 5th trumpet or on the 5th trumpet, at least "five months" PRIOR to all those Rev.6:14-17 events. The 5th trumpet timing of Rev.9 is also 1st Woe timing, pointing to tribulation timing. The Rev.6:14-17 events are PAST tribulation timing, because those events are "day of the Lord" events that occur only with Christ's return.
Until you address these specifics above I mention, then we're in no way ready to just jump... into the Rev.7 chapter. So the rest of your post is likely going to also exclude those points and be useless.
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
The "four winds" are the wrath of the Lamb that are being held back for a full twinkle! Lo, the second half of the twinkle begins…
There is NO "second half of the twinkle" idea written anywhere in God's Word. That's what you've been wrongly taught
to add... to The Scriptures there by men's traditions in order to try and create... a space for their doctrines.
Apostle Paul got the "twinkling of an eye" change idea from the Book of Isaiah about how quickly the end of this world will occur with Christ's coming on the last day.
It means as fast as one can BLINK their eyelid. God through Isaiah gave the idea of "at an instant suddenly" (Isa.29). Just how fast does our eyelid blink? That's how fast the 'change' will be that Paul spoke of in 1 Cor.15 from Isaiah 25, that occurs at Christ's coming.
Rev 7:3
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
(KJV)
That event those four angels are told to hold back IS... the events of the change at the twinkling of an eye Paul taught and Peter in 2 Pet.3:10, i.e., "day of the Lord" events. The doctrines you're holding to has that event already having happened when instead these four angels are told to hold it back! That's how confused those doctrines of men are that you've latched onto.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
This, my friend, is the rapture, in it’s proper sequence. After the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal but just before the 7[sup]th[/sup] seal is opened which contain the 7 trumpets. In no way have I ever implied they are anything but sequential.
Afraid NOT. It's about the Gentile believers on Christ that wash their robes in The Blood of The Lamb having gone through... the tribulation. That's how they washed their robes, by going through the tribulation and having 'overcome' as our Lord Jesus commanded us. By the time of that event, Christ is already reiging, and the saints are with Him. It is a fast-forward look at Christ's Milennium time and thereafter.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
You simply have to understand that scripture in no way implies the “great trib” is the latter 3 ½ yrs. Only the doctrine of men says that! As the OP suggests and as the HS reveals more, I’m leaning that the great trib will be over before the midpoint of the 70[sup]th[/sup] week. The “living waters” spring from heaven and we are in heaven at this point where they are. Will they eventually come to earth? Yes, but not until after the millennium!
Now you've gone totally off subject, and into the false doctrine of a Pre-Trib Secret Rapture, not even trying to address those Rev.7:13-17 verses at all! I will show you how to do it, line upon line, precept upon precept like how God showed to do it...
Rev 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"
One of the elders in John's vision asks him if he knows who these are that are given white robes, and from WHENCE they came. That means from what place of origin did they come from, the elder asks John.
14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
John admits he didn't know, but that the elder knew. Stop for a moment and think. Why is this specific question being asked at this point about that great multitude, of all nations, kindreds, people, and tongues?
John is told these have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of The Lamb Jesus Christ. By that means they went through the great tribulation and overcame it, which is how they made their robes white in Christ. We were shown this matter of robe cleansing through Christ back in Dan.11 in reference to when the "vile person" comes and places the abomination that maketh desolate, and at the end of Dan.12...
Dan 11:33-35
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
(KJV)
Dan 12:10
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
(KJV)
So we've got a choice here. Do we listen to men's doctrines OUTSIDE of God's Word of what that washing of robes making them white is, or do we listen to what our Heaveny Father shows it means per His Word? I choose the latter.
We cannot just try and push that meaning to the 144, 000 either, because the Pre-Trib Secret Rapture teaches those 144,000 Israelites are Jews that come to Christ DURING the tribulation; they even coin the phrase "tribulaton saints" to create support for their false idea of the Church being raptured out to not go through the tribualtion. This great multitude here go through it and by that make their robes white in Christ Jesus. Thus, IT IS NOT ABOUT A RAPTURE.
Rev.7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Two choices on how to go here, either that is our Lord Jesus upon His throne, on earth, or that is The Father upon His throne. That's about Christ's throne on earth, because that's when His saints serve Him day and night in His temple, during His Milennium reign, the temple of Ezekiel 40-44, for the "thousand years" period of Rev.20. Only after that period has ended will the full Godhead return to earth and dwell with us, per the last verse of Ezekiel 48 and Revelation 22:3. Per Rev.21:22 there is no temple at that future point after Christ's thousand years reign. That's why this Rev.7 great multitude is a fast-forward look at that time, after the tribualtion, and during Christ's Milennium reign.
Rev.7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."
(KJV)
Those two verses are specifically about Christ's Milennium timing, and go along with that previous idea of the saints at Christ's throne serving Him in His temple (on earth) day and night, i.e., the Ezekiel 44 events and Rev.20 events of the future "thousand years".
That's why that picture of the "great multitude" is a forward timeline view of Christ's Church already gathered to Christ and serving Him during that Milennium timing. Furthermore, the WHOLE Revelation 7 chapter is about God's sealing of His saints, of BOTH Israelite believers on Christ Jesus, and Gentile believers on Christ Jesus, i.e., His whole Church inclusive. We can easily know that by what that sealing with God's seal is about, and for what time and event it is for. It's shown in the Rev.9 Scripture that I covered before, because ONLY those NOT sealed with God's Seal are subject to the locust's working for "five months", which is tribulation time.
8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Okay, so far we’ve had the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal, two halves of a twinkle and now a “half-hour” which I’ve shown is there to fulfill the prophecy of Zech. 2:13. The “winds of wrath” have been held back but now it is time.
You've already missed so much... about the previous Scriptures that your Rev.8 interpretation is nothing but a further misleading away from God's Word. The silence in heaven is given as a separation point alright. It's because it's all over by that point. How can we know that for sure, that by the 7th Seal it's all over? Simply because the events given on the 6 trumpets and 6 vials also show that Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord" and His gathering of His Church have still not yet happened. An example?...
SIXTH VIAL TIMING:
Rev 16:12-16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)
Armageddon is a "day of the Lord" type event, the same timing as the Rev.6:14-17 verses. It happens on the 7th Vial per that Scripture. Yet still on the 6th Vial, our Lord Jesus is STILL giving His warning to His Church on earth to be on 'watch', keep our garments (robes) lest we walk naked in shame. Even the events of the 5th Seal is timed with the events of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period just prior to Christ's coming and His time of wrath (Rev.9 thru Rev.11).
All you're doing is just regirgitating the doctrines of men that you've learned, from both the Pre-Trib Secret Rapture and Pre-Wrath doctrines of men.
Hi Veteran,
Just for the record, since you seem to be in denial on this point . . .
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Trekson on other threads has refused to accept that the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing is when our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming happens per the Rev.11 Scripture. That's why he's trying to find a way AROUND the Scripture instead of simply heeding IT as written. It's because of the doctrines of men that he is desiring to hold onto involving the Pre-Wrath theological seminary position.
Perhaps you do not recognize that you are refuting Trekson’s position here by attacting his intellectual honesty. You are claiming that rather than being a product of his Biblical study, that his position results from a willful denial of your view.
Not a denial of my view, but a denial of The Scripture meaning itself, and by the following of men's traditions, traditions that are clearly marked and recognizable today from the various seminary theological positions. His is mostly from the Pre-Wrath school; your's comes mainly from the Pre-Trib school, both seminary positions that NEITHER of you developed nor came up with.
So rather than simply refute his position, you find it necessary to undermine him as a person.
Not at all, because it's about the doctrines of men, not matters of one's intellectual abilities. And actually, it's you that is trying to make it about attacking the person and not the doctrine, so the personal attacking is what you're trying to do. It won't work though, because others here can easily see when someone gets away from The Scripture to add a leaven doctrine of men instead, which is what you both have been doing because of holding to either the Pre-Trib Rapture or Pre-Wrath seminary doctrines of men.
It was posts like this that prompted my metacommunication.
You mean your attempt at ad hominem personal attacks against me, like even now? simply because God's Word does not support the Pre-trib Rapture theory you hold to, which is a doctrine that began in 1830's Great Britain?
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You're just... not thinking.
This should be completely obvious. It doesn’t even fit into the discussion. It’s just a personal jab. The fallacy is the notion that his view should not be accepted because it does not result from thoughtful consideration.
But it's true. You've got the ability to reason in The Scriptures, but when you adopt men's doctrines instead of staying in God's Word, that is to quit thinking for yourself.
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Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Or can you just not see that?
Did YOU not write this post, which is nothing but arguing? Have you in any way here in this post presented Scripture to support your doctrine? No. So all you're doing is just ruining your credibility all the more by what you're saying here.
I know you're trying to save face for having believed on a doctrine of men, that you won't admit you're doing, but can easily be proven that's what you're doing. You would have done better by leaving things where they were.