ALL TIMELINES NEED TO BE REVISED

[THE Gypsy]

...That's what you're doing with jumping to Rev.7 and trying to make it a part of the 6th Seal events of Rev.6! There is NO "pre-wrath rapture of the church" in Rev.6 NOR Rev.7. You've been wrongly taught to ADD that idea to the Scripture there, and that's where you're messing up. Didn't you notice that in Rev.7:1 John says, "And after these things..."? The 6th Seal events are not continuing into Rev.7, John is marking another vision he's seeing in Rev.7.

Rev 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea
3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
(KJV)

Those four winds blowing on the earth represent the 'end' of this world, i.e., the "day of the Lord" events when Christ comes "as a thief". But those angels are told to hold up loosing that until... what? Until God's servants (on earth) are sealed with HIS seal. Because of that we have to ask what is God's sealing for? Is it so as to be Raptured out prior to the tribulation events? NO. It's so as to make a STAND during... the tribulation events. That's what Rev.7 is about, and also parts of Rev.9 with a pointer to God's sealing there also. So now at Rev.7, what timing does God's sealing of His servants take place? BEFORE the great tribulation timing. So what TIMING is that there, 6th Seal "day of the Lord" and Christ's wrath timing??? Absolutely not! That subject of the sealing there in Rev.7 is going backwards in the timeline, back to a description of God's servants being sealed in preparation for the trib. That's at least 1260 days, or "a time, times, and an half" BEFORE Christ's coming and His wrath.

Then starting at Rev.7:9 about the "great multitude" of Gentile servants, the timeline is moving way... forward PAST the tribulation, and PAST the "day of the Lord" event, because they're given white robes, washed them in the Blood of The Lamb with going through the tribulation, and are at the throne with Christ after His return, since those events of the waters of life, no hunger, no heat or cold, are events of Christ's "thousand years" reign.

That is one of the best explanations of those Scriptures I have ever heard. Thanks.

 

[teleiosis]

Too bad veteran's "explanation" is fantasy.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Too bad veteran's "explanation" is fantasy.

ANYTHING to do with the "rapture" could be considered "fantasy" as there is nothing ABSOLUTE about it. Having said that...I do not share your opinion of veterans explanation.

 

[teleiosis]

Sorry, Jesus said the Angels would come after and take us over to receive our inheritance. Paul said we would be seized up, caught up, and snatched away.

It's not fantasy; it's Scripture.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Sorry, Jesus said the Angels would come after and take us over to receive our inheritance. Paul said we would be seized up, caught up, and snatched away.

It's not fantasy; it's Scripture.

Who said they didn't say that?

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, What’s the matter? Is your house of cards falling before your eyes? Your words: “Stop right there. All those
Rev.6:14-17 events occur at the SAME time. You're trying to insert a different... time within those events. Can't do that. The part below is also where you're beginning to bring in what you've gotten from men's traditions about their required sequential order for Revelation…”

I don’t know where you see I am separating them. I agree they occur at the SAME time.

Your words: “That's what you're doing with jumping to Rev.7 and trying to make it a part of the 6th Seal events of Rev.6! There is NO "pre-wrath rapture of the church" in Rev.6 NOR Rev.7.

Sorry, vet, you’re the one taking scripture out of context. It IS sequential whether you want to admit it or not!

Your words: “Didn't you notice that in Rev.7:1 John says, "And after these things..."? The 6th Seal events are not continuing into Rev.7, John is marking another vision he's seeing in Rev.7.”

Yes I did see that and the “things” of that phrase are the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal. He’s not “marking” another vision!!! He’s continuing with the ONE AND ONLY VISION HE HAD!!! All of Revelation is ONE vision recorded in the sequences it was shown to him, however, I agree there are parenthetical parts that give more depth and detail to his vision.

Rev 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." (KJV)

Your words: “Those four winds blowing on the earth represent the 'end' of this world, i.e., the "day of the Lord" events when Christ comes "as a thief". But those angels are told to hold up loosing that until... what? Until God's servants (on earth) are sealed with HIS seal. Because of that we have to ask what is God's sealing for? Is it so as to be Raptured out prior to the tribulation events? NO. It's so as to make a STAND during... the tribulation events.”

LOL! Come on Vet, you know better than that! The bible tells you exactly who is sealed and they are uncompromising Israeli’s who Christ will bring into the millennium with Him. The church is not in sight in the particular passage. It’s sort of like He is passing the torch, so to speak, from the "just about to be" raptured “age of grace” church, to the millennial church however that will be designed.

　
Your words: “So now at Rev.7, what timing does God's sealing of His servants take place? BEFORE the great tribulation timing. So what TIMING is that there, 6th Seal "day of the Lord" and Christ's wrath timing??? Absolutely not! That subject of the sealing there in Rev.7 is going backwards in the timeline, back to a description of God's servants being sealed in preparation for the trib. That's at least 1260 days, or "a time, times, and an half" BEFORE Christ's coming and His wrath.”

Really!!, You think Rev. 7 goes back in time?? Well maybe that’s the only way your house of cards makes sense to you but it certainly isn’t “dividing the word of” prophecy properly. The signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal foretell the end of the great trib and the beginning of the Lamb’s wrath!! Only in your mixed up theology do you insist on them being the same event.

Your words: “Then starting at Rev.7:9 about the "great multitude" of Gentile servants, the timeline is moving way... forward PAST the tribulation, and PAST the "day of the Lord" event,”

Sorry again Vet but it’s not “way forward”, it’s the next event, the rapture of the church, after the “great” trib, yes but just before the day of the Lord. One of these days it’ll sink in. If you want to stay here alone and live through it, go ahead but if you’re a christian, God has other plans for you. I think you’ll be thankful you were wrong.

Your words: “I see no reason to continue this with you, since what you've tried to do is to destroy the simplicity that's in those Scriptures just so you can hold to the Pre-Wrath theological tradition, which also comes from... men's doctrines, and NOT God's Word.”

Sometimes Vet, Men’s doctrines are actually based on God’s Word. However, you seem to believe that if things aren’t directly revealed to you personally, than they must be wrong, but that’s not the way God works. You seem to be the one that is “changing” the Word and making stuff up to cram into your house of cards and I think you’re realizing that it doesn’t stand up to serious scrutiny but you want to stick your fingers in your ears and go “la-la-la-la- I can’t hear you“! Instead of heeding the truth as it’s presented to you. The choice is of course yours, however we’ll welcome you into the fold whenever you’re ready to accept it.

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet, What’s the matter? Is your house of cards falling before your eyes? Your words: “Stop right there. All those
Rev.6:14-17 events occur at the SAME time. You're trying to insert a different... time within those events. Can't do that. The part below is also where you're beginning to bring in what you've gotten from men's traditions about their required sequential order for Revelation…”

I don’t know where you see I am separating them. I agree they occur at the SAME time.

If you don't understand how you're idea is corrupting them, then it HAS to mean you haven't understood those events of the 6th Seal in the first place.

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)

Those above events are "day of the Lord" timing events, which Paul and Peter both declared is the time of Christ's coming "as a thief" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). When those of v.16-17 say that it means Christ's is coming at that moment to pour out His cup of wrath. The Pre-Wrath position inserts a 'rapture' there before... all that. Yet it is NOT there at all. Nor is it in the next Rev.7 chapter either. So there's your falling house of cards.

Your words: “That's what you're doing with jumping to Rev.7 and trying to make it a part of the 6th Seal events of Rev.6! There is NO "pre-wrath rapture of the church" in Rev.6 NOR Rev.7.

Sorry, vet, you’re the one taking scripture out of context. It IS sequential whether you want to admit it or not!

The doctrine of men you're holding to is telling you Rev.6 and 7 are sequential. They are not. Rev.7 is a different vision than the 6th Seal events. In Rev.6:16-17 the time of Christ's wrath has come. In Rev.7:1 forward the angels are told to hold the four winds back until God's servants are sealed with His sealing, which forces us to move back in the timeline.

You're simply refusing to admit that those on the Pre-Wrath tradition you listen to are the ones taking those Scriptures out of context, telling you they are sequential when they are not. We are not sealed by God on the "day of the Lord", but prior to the "day of the Lord", which is the time of Christ's wrath and coming and our gathering to Him.


Rev 9:4-5
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(KJV)

There's the link to the idea of the sealing that Rev.7 is pointing to. That locust working is prior to the day of Christ's coming and wrath. The locusts cannot kill but only torment those NOT sealed with God's seal. By that it is indirectly pointing to God's servants of Rev.7 that are to be sealed with His seal prior to the four winds blowing (i.e., "day of the Lord" timing). So that's showing God's sealing a minimum of "five months" prior to Christ's coming and day of His wrath.

Your words: “Didn't you notice that in Rev.7:1 John says, "And after these things..."? The 6th Seal events are not continuing into Rev.7, John is marking another vision he's seeing in Rev.7.”

Yes I did see that and the “things” of that phrase are the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal. He’s not “marking” another vision!!! He’s continuing with the ONE AND ONLY VISION HE HAD!!! All of Revelation is ONE vision recorded in the sequences it was shown to him, however, I agree there are parenthetical parts that give more depth and detail to his vision.

No, the Rev.7 events are not the 6th Seal events, it's another vision because of the timing of God's sealing of His servants with His seal. By separate visions is meant separate scenes. And those scenes have events with different timelines. By what you're saying it would mean the events of all the seals, trumpets, and vials are all the same, and anyone that's done even a half-way study in Revelation knows better than that.

Rev 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." (KJV)

Your words: “Those four winds blowing on the earth represent the 'end' of this world, i.e., the "day of the Lord" events when Christ comes "as a thief". But those angels are told to hold up loosing that until... what? Until God's servants (on earth) are sealed with HIS seal. Because of that we have to ask what is God's sealing for? Is it so as to be Raptured out prior to the tribulation events? NO. It's so as to make a STAND during... the tribulation events.”

LOL! Come on Vet, you know better than that! The bible tells you exactly who is sealed and they are uncompromising Israeli’s who Christ will bring into the millennium with Him. The church is not in sight in the particular passage. It’s sort of like He is passing the torch, so to speak, from the "just about to be" raptured “age of grace” church, to the millennial church however that will be designed.

Know better than what? I know better than to try to add a 'rapture' there to the Scripture like you've been taught to do. None of what you're saying about that Rev.7 chapter makes sense at all. It's because your explanation is just a balloon of hot air from men's traditions of the Pre-Wrath school. What you're saying is prima facia evidence of listening to men's 'leaven' doctrines, a working our Lord Jesus warned us to not do.

Your words: “So now at Rev.7, what timing does God's sealing of His servants take place? BEFORE the great tribulation timing. So what TIMING is that there, 6th Seal "day of the Lord" and Christ's wrath timing??? Absolutely not! That subject of the sealing there in Rev.7 is going backwards in the timeline, back to a description of God's servants being sealed in preparation for the trib. That's at least 1260 days, or "a time, times, and an half" BEFORE Christ's coming and His wrath.”

Really!!, You think Rev. 7 goes back in time?? Well maybe that’s the only way your house of cards makes sense to you but it certainly isn’t “dividing the word of” prophecy properly. The signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal foretell the end of the great trib and the beginning of the Lamb’s wrath!! Only in your mixed up theology do you insist on them being the same event.

I don't think, I know Rev.7 is going back in the timeline. And so far you've done nothing to disprove it. Instead you're doing the ad hominem thing that others try to accuse me of. Where's you're detailed explanation of those Rev.7 events? Let's see you 'rightly divide' those Rev.7 verses, line upon line, precept upon precept like I did. No, you'd rather revert to ad hominem attacks which means you've left the subject.

Your words: “Then starting at Rev.7:9 about the "great multitude" of Gentile servants, the timeline is moving way... forward PAST the tribulation, and PAST the "day of the Lord" event,”

Sorry again Vet but it’s not “way forward”, it’s the next event, the rapture of the church, after the “great” trib, yes but just before the day of the Lord. One of these days it’ll sink in. If you want to stay here alone and live through it, go ahead but if you’re a christian, God has other plans for you. I think you’ll be thankful you were wrong.

Find where there's a Rapture of the Church there in Rev.7. It's not there, because it's talking about those who went through tribulation and overcame by the Blood of The Lamb, and they're given white robes and are at Christ's throne, with the waters of life timing pointed to. So you think the waters of life of Rev.22:1 happens prior to Christ's time of wrath? That's how messed up your timeline is.

Not only that, but you've got a rapture happening in Rev.7, when the Rev.6:16-17 6th Seal verses are about the time of Christ's wrath. How is it you don't understand that's placing a rapture AFTER... the time of Christ's wrath, which is against your own doctrine? You're just not thinking for yourself, because the traditions of men you're listening to has made you spiritually drunken.

Your words: “I see no reason to continue this with you, since what you've tried to do is to destroy the simplicity that's in those Scriptures just so you can hold to the Pre-Wrath theological tradition, which also comes from... men's doctrines, and NOT God's Word.”

Sometimes Vet, Men’s doctrines are actually based on God’s Word. However, you seem to believe that if things aren’t directly revealed to you personally, than they must be wrong, but that’s not the way God works. You seem to be the one that is “changing” the Word and making stuff up to cram into your house of cards and I think you’re realizing that it doesn’t stand up to serious scrutiny but you want to stick your fingers in your ears and go “la-la-la-la- I can’t hear you“! Instead of heeding the truth as it’s presented to you. The choice is of course yours, however we’ll welcome you into the fold whenever you’re ready to accept it.

Christ's Revelation is not that difficult IF we pay attention to It as written and listen to our Heavenly Father instead of men's traditions. When I'm studying His Word The Holy Spirit will often trigger in my mind a related Scripture I've studied elsewhere in His Word, and by that is how we allow God's Word to interpret God's Word for us. You should have recalled the Rev.9 link to the event of God's sealing His servants with His seal in relation to the Rev.7 chapter. But that's not the only relevant Scripture about that event. The Ezekiel 9 chapter is a major link to it also. Christ revealed something very important to you about that sealing in Rev.9 with the "five months" period too, but apparently you don't know about that either. And you won't know until you get down to real Bible study for yourself with God's help instead of relying on men's seminary traditions.

Something else trekson, you should look more into what the actual Biblical meaning of the 'harpazo' ("caught up") event really is. It is about those on earth at the time of Christ's coming being 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" to the "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. And like I've related many times with that subject, Paul was pulling from Isaiah 25 about that event. Heaven is going to be revealed 'here', on earth. Both the Pre-trib Rapture and the Pre-Wrath Rapture positions of men rely on it being a removal from this earth with Heaven at a different location. Neither schools have properly understood what the resurrection is and where Christ's servants on earth are gathered to.

 

[Trekson]

Okay Vet, I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt because in many cases you do seem to do your homework, however, if you want to be taught how to do a line by line, precept upon precept study, then I'll show you. BTW, Yes, I first heard of pre-wrath by men but it's the Holy Spirit which affirmed it in my heart and from decades of personal study there are many areas in which I break from the standards of pre-wrath, but still believe the basic outline is God's truth, not mans! Let's go from Rev. 6:14- Rev. 8:6.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The phrase "is come" of vs. 17 is in the present/future tense and means, "it's about to come". As of vs. 17, the wrath of the Lamb is about to come and men are aware of that because of the signs of the 6th seal, but it hasn't started yet. As Paul taught, the rapture will occur "in the twinkling of an eye". So as God foreknows who these 144,000 Israelites are, they are sealed in half a twinkle, immediately after the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal!

7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

The "four winds" are the wrath of the Lamb that are being held back for a full twinkle! Lo, the second half of the twinkle begins…

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

This, my friend, is the rapture, in it’s proper sequence. After the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal but just before the 7[sup]th[/sup] seal is opened which contain the 7 trumpets. In no way have I ever implied they are anything but sequential.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

You simply have to understand that scripture in no way implies the “great trib” is the latter 3 ½ yrs. Only the doctrine of men says that! As the OP suggests and as the HS reveals more, I’m leaning that the great trib will be over before the midpoint of the 70[sup]th[/sup] week. The “living waters” spring from heaven and we are in heaven at this point where they are. Will they eventually come to earth? Yes, but not until after the millennium!

　
8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Okay, so far we’ve had the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal, two halves of a twinkle and now a “half-hour” which I’ve shown is there to fulfill the prophecy of Zech. 2:13. The “winds of wrath” have been held back but now it is time.

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Now, the wrath of the Lamb begins with the seven trumpet judgments to be followed by the wrath of God with the seven vial judgments which will conclude with the destruction of Babylon (America), followed by Armageddon.

It’s really not that hard to understand when you realize that God is a God of logic and order. The devil is the god of chaos, which is what you create when you go “out of sequence” and turn John into some sort of prophetic “pinball wizard”, bouncing back and forth, helter skelter, just tossing visions around left and right. No wonder you get confused!
　

 

[mark s]

Hi Veteran,
Just for the record, since you seem to be in denial on this point . . .

Trekson on other threads has refused to accept that the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing is when our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming happens per the Rev.11 Scripture. That's why he's trying to find a way AROUND the Scripture instead of simply heeding IT as written. It's because of the doctrines of men that he is desiring to hold onto involving the Pre-Wrath theological seminary position.

Perhaps you do not recognize that you are refuting Trekson’s position here by attacting his intellectual honesty. You are claiming that rather than being a product of his Biblical study, that his position results from a willful denial of your view.

So rather than simply refute his position, you find it necessary to undermine him as a person.

It was posts like this that prompted my metacommunication.

You're just... not thinking.

This should be completely obvious. It doesn’t even fit into the discussion. It’s just a personal jab. The fallacy is the notion that his view should not be accepted because it does not result from thoughtful consideration.

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Or can you just not see that?

Interesting alternatives here.

[quote]What you reveal with your ignorant mocking is that you don't really have a clue as to the proper order of the Revelation events, but instead are after MONEY with pushing your BOOK of nothing but more... of the traditions of men! Done too much work in one direction per men's traditions to back out now, haven't you?[/quote]

They're kind of like old people with their comfortable things they don't want to give up, following whatever denominational organizational system teaching is more important to them than what the actual Scripture is stating there. Being in that state is a mark of what Apostle Paul taught in the Rom.11 chapter about those of God's people that have been 'blinded' with the "spirit of slumber", a lethargic mind-sleep.

That's the attitude one always gets with those on men's ideas of Pre-trib Rapture doctrine. When they have opportunity to try and back it up in God's Word they instead resort to hot air.

When you decide to quit all that gibberish

“An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent, instead of against the opponent's argument.[sup][1][/sup] Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as an informal fallacy,[sup][2][3][4][/sup] more precisely an irrelevance.[sup][5]”[/sup]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ad_hominem

Definition of AD HOMINEM

1
: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2
: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

http://www.merriam-w...nary/ad hominem

If you were to decide to forego this sort of thing, I would be happy to discuss these things with you. Meanwhile, my post was to Trekson, and as he does not seem inclined to engage with me on this topic, I believe I’m done here.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Trekson]

Hi Mark, I'm sorry but I must have missed post # 38. It sounds intriguing. Could you expand on it a little more?

 

[veteran]

Okay Vet, I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt because in many cases you do seem to do your homework, however, if you want to be taught how to do a line by line, precept upon precept study, then I'll show you. BTW, Yes, I first heard of pre-wrath by men but it's the Holy Spirit which affirmed it in my heart and from decades of personal study there are many areas in which I break from the standards of pre-wrath, but still believe the basic outline is God's truth, not mans! Let's go from Rev. 6:14- Rev. 8:6.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The phrase "is come" of vs. 17 is in the present/future tense and means, "it's about to come". As of vs. 17, the wrath of the Lamb is about to come and men are aware of that because of the signs of the 6th seal, but it hasn't started yet. As Paul taught, the rapture will occur "in the twinkling of an eye". So as God foreknows who these 144,000 Israelites are, they are sealed in half a twinkle, immediately after the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal!

What you've done is skip the Rev.6:14-15 verses totally and their specific timing...

Rev 6:14-15
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(KJV)

Notice those verses I quote are NOT in any 'present/future tense'. John sees the events of those two verses happen first, and then... notes what they begin to say per the Rev.6:16-17 verses. So what specific timing is that? It's "day of the Lord" timing, because that's when those events above occur (per Isa.34; Isa.2:12-22; Isa.24:21-23; Rev.16:19-20; 2 Pet.3:10; Heb.12:25-29, etc.). In other words, the change at the twinkling of an eye has happened by that point between Rev.6:14-15 and Rev.6:16-17.

It's as I've always said, the time of Christ's coming, our gathering to Him, the end of this world with God's consuming fire of 2 Pet.3:10, the coming great shaking in Jerusalem per the Zech.14 events, end of the tribulation, all occur on that same day. That's why those events are tied to the events of the final trumpet and final vial. That means God's sealing of His servants happens PRIOR to those 6th Seal events.

But you're holding to a tradition of men with that idea 144,000 Israelites being sealed AFTER... those 6th Seal events. I've already shown you per the Rev.9 Scripture that God's sealing takes place either prior to the 5th trumpet or on the 5th trumpet, at least "five months" PRIOR to all those Rev.6:14-17 events. The 5th trumpet timing of Rev.9 is also 1st Woe timing, pointing to tribulation timing. The Rev.6:14-17 events are PAST tribulation timing, because those events are "day of the Lord" events that occur only with Christ's return.

Until you address these specifics above I mention, then we're in no way ready to just jump... into the Rev.7 chapter. So the rest of your post is likely going to also exclude those points and be useless.

7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

The "four winds" are the wrath of the Lamb that are being held back for a full twinkle! Lo, the second half of the twinkle begins…

There is NO "second half of the twinkle" idea written anywhere in God's Word. That's what you've been wrongly taught to add... to The Scriptures there by men's traditions in order to try and create... a space for their doctrines.

Apostle Paul got the "twinkling of an eye" change idea from the Book of Isaiah about how quickly the end of this world will occur with Christ's coming on the last day. It means as fast as one can BLINK their eyelid. God through Isaiah gave the idea of "at an instant suddenly" (Isa.29). Just how fast does our eyelid blink? That's how fast the 'change' will be that Paul spoke of in 1 Cor.15 from Isaiah 25, that occurs at Christ's coming.


Rev 7:3
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
(KJV)

That event those four angels are told to hold back IS... the events of the change at the twinkling of an eye Paul taught and Peter in 2 Pet.3:10, i.e., "day of the Lord" events. The doctrines you're holding to has that event already having happened when instead these four angels are told to hold it back! That's how confused those doctrines of men are that you've latched onto.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

This, my friend, is the rapture, in it’s proper sequence. After the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal but just before the 7[sup]th[/sup] seal is opened which contain the 7 trumpets. In no way have I ever implied they are anything but sequential.

Afraid NOT. It's about the Gentile believers on Christ that wash their robes in The Blood of The Lamb having gone through... the tribulation. That's how they washed their robes, by going through the tribulation and having 'overcome' as our Lord Jesus commanded us. By the time of that event, Christ is already reiging, and the saints are with Him. It is a fast-forward look at Christ's Milennium time and thereafter.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

You simply have to understand that scripture in no way implies the “great trib” is the latter 3 ½ yrs. Only the doctrine of men says that! As the OP suggests and as the HS reveals more, I’m leaning that the great trib will be over before the midpoint of the 70[sup]th[/sup] week. The “living waters” spring from heaven and we are in heaven at this point where they are. Will they eventually come to earth? Yes, but not until after the millennium!

Now you've gone totally off subject, and into the false doctrine of a Pre-Trib Secret Rapture, not even trying to address those Rev.7:13-17 verses at all! I will show you how to do it, line upon line, precept upon precept like how God showed to do it...


Rev 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

One of the elders in John's vision asks him if he knows who these are that are given white robes, and from WHENCE they came. That means from what place of origin did they come from, the elder asks John.


14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

John admits he didn't know, but that the elder knew. Stop for a moment and think. Why is this specific question being asked at this point about that great multitude, of all nations, kindreds, people, and tongues?

John is told these have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of The Lamb Jesus Christ. By that means they went through the great tribulation and overcame it, which is how they made their robes white in Christ. We were shown this matter of robe cleansing through Christ back in Dan.11 in reference to when the "vile person" comes and places the abomination that maketh desolate, and at the end of Dan.12...

Dan 11:33-35
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
(KJV)

Dan 12:10
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
(KJV)

So we've got a choice here. Do we listen to men's doctrines OUTSIDE of God's Word of what that washing of robes making them white is, or do we listen to what our Heaveny Father shows it means per His Word? I choose the latter.

We cannot just try and push that meaning to the 144, 000 either, because the Pre-Trib Secret Rapture teaches those 144,000 Israelites are Jews that come to Christ DURING the tribulation; they even coin the phrase "tribulaton saints" to create support for their false idea of the Church being raptured out to not go through the tribualtion. This great multitude here go through it and by that make their robes white in Christ Jesus. Thus, IT IS NOT ABOUT A RAPTURE.


Rev.7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Two choices on how to go here, either that is our Lord Jesus upon His throne, on earth, or that is The Father upon His throne. That's about Christ's throne on earth, because that's when His saints serve Him day and night in His temple, during His Milennium reign, the temple of Ezekiel 40-44, for the "thousand years" period of Rev.20. Only after that period has ended will the full Godhead return to earth and dwell with us, per the last verse of Ezekiel 48 and Revelation 22:3. Per Rev.21:22 there is no temple at that future point after Christ's thousand years reign. That's why this Rev.7 great multitude is a fast-forward look at that time, after the tribualtion, and during Christ's Milennium reign.


Rev.7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."
(KJV)

Those two verses are specifically about Christ's Milennium timing, and go along with that previous idea of the saints at Christ's throne serving Him in His temple (on earth) day and night, i.e., the Ezekiel 44 events and Rev.20 events of the future "thousand years".

That's why that picture of the "great multitude" is a forward timeline view of Christ's Church already gathered to Christ and serving Him during that Milennium timing. Furthermore, the WHOLE Revelation 7 chapter is about God's sealing of His saints, of BOTH Israelite believers on Christ Jesus, and Gentile believers on Christ Jesus, i.e., His whole Church inclusive. We can easily know that by what that sealing with God's seal is about, and for what time and event it is for. It's shown in the Rev.9 Scripture that I covered before, because ONLY those NOT sealed with God's Seal are subject to the locust's working for "five months", which is tribulation time.

8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Okay, so far we’ve had the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal, two halves of a twinkle and now a “half-hour” which I’ve shown is there to fulfill the prophecy of Zech. 2:13. The “winds of wrath” have been held back but now it is time.

You've already missed so much... about the previous Scriptures that your Rev.8 interpretation is nothing but a further misleading away from God's Word. The silence in heaven is given as a separation point alright. It's because it's all over by that point. How can we know that for sure, that by the 7th Seal it's all over? Simply because the events given on the 6 trumpets and 6 vials also show that Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord" and His gathering of His Church have still not yet happened. An example?...

SIXTH VIAL TIMING:

Rev 16:12-16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)

Armageddon is a "day of the Lord" type event, the same timing as the Rev.6:14-17 verses. It happens on the 7th Vial per that Scripture. Yet still on the 6th Vial, our Lord Jesus is STILL giving His warning to His Church on earth to be on 'watch', keep our garments (robes) lest we walk naked in shame. Even the events of the 5th Seal is timed with the events of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period just prior to Christ's coming and His time of wrath (Rev.9 thru Rev.11).

All you're doing is just regirgitating the doctrines of men that you've learned, from both the Pre-Trib Secret Rapture and Pre-Wrath doctrines of men.

Hi Veteran,
Just for the record, since you seem to be in denial on this point . . .

Quote

Trekson on other threads has refused to accept that the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing is when our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming happens per the Rev.11 Scripture. That's why he's trying to find a way AROUND the Scripture instead of simply heeding IT as written. It's because of the doctrines of men that he is desiring to hold onto involving the Pre-Wrath theological seminary position.

Perhaps you do not recognize that you are refuting Trekson’s position here by attacting his intellectual honesty. You are claiming that rather than being a product of his Biblical study, that his position results from a willful denial of your view.

Not a denial of my view, but a denial of The Scripture meaning itself, and by the following of men's traditions, traditions that are clearly marked and recognizable today from the various seminary theological positions. His is mostly from the Pre-Wrath school; your's comes mainly from the Pre-Trib school, both seminary positions that NEITHER of you developed nor came up with.

So rather than simply refute his position, you find it necessary to undermine him as a person.

Not at all, because it's about the doctrines of men, not matters of one's intellectual abilities. And actually, it's you that is trying to make it about attacking the person and not the doctrine, so the personal attacking is what you're trying to do. It won't work though, because others here can easily see when someone gets away from The Scripture to add a leaven doctrine of men instead, which is what you both have been doing because of holding to either the Pre-Trib Rapture or Pre-Wrath seminary doctrines of men.

It was posts like this that prompted my metacommunication.

You mean your attempt at ad hominem personal attacks against me, like even now? simply because God's Word does not support the Pre-trib Rapture theory you hold to, which is a doctrine that began in 1830's Great Britain?

Quote

You're just... not thinking.

This should be completely obvious. It doesn’t even fit into the discussion. It’s just a personal jab. The fallacy is the notion that his view should not be accepted because it does not result from thoughtful consideration.

But it's true. You've got the ability to reason in The Scriptures, but when you adopt men's doctrines instead of staying in God's Word, that is to quit thinking for yourself.

Quote

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Or can you just not see that?

Did YOU not write this post, which is nothing but arguing? Have you in any way here in this post presented Scripture to support your doctrine? No. So all you're doing is just ruining your credibility all the more by what you're saying here.

I know you're trying to save face for having believed on a doctrine of men, that you won't admit you're doing, but can easily be proven that's what you're doing. You would have done better by leaving things where they were.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, Believe it or not I agree with much of what you wrote in the beginning of your post until you say this: "This great multitude here go through it and by that make their robes white in Christ Jesus. Thus, IT IS NOT ABOUT A RAPTURE."

The rapture is what brings them to heaven. Do they go throught the great trib? Of course, I've never claimed otherwise, however, the great trib ENDS YEARS BEFORE THE END OF THE 70TH WEEK!!! There is no 6th seal, 6th trumpet or 6th vial timing. There is no 7th seal, 7th trump, 7th vial timing. It's all made up by how you interpret prophecy, which no offense, I think is all wrong, but hey, you're entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. Every now and then I do get a nugget of good info from you and for that I'm appreciative, however, imo, your timeline is severely messed up but now so is mine, thus the OP. I don't have a better one to offer at this time but the HS keeps revealing stuff little by little and hopefully in the near future I will have a viable one to offer.

Your words: "Armageddon is a "day of the Lord" type event, the same timing as the Rev.6:14-17 verses. It happens on the 7th Vial per that Scripture."

Well, it's not a "type" of the day of the Lord, it's part of it and it occurs years after Rev.6:14-17and no the 7th vial is not Armageddon. It's about the destruction of the "city" of Babylon which isn't the apostate church, it's not catholicism, it's not a faceless financial organization, it's not a generic term for false religions and it's not Jerusalem. Armageddon occurs shortly after that event.

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet, Believe it or not I agree with much of what you wrote in the beginning of your post until you say this: "This great multitude here go through it and by that make their robes white in Christ Jesus. Thus, IT IS NOT ABOUT A RAPTURE."

The rapture is what brings them to heaven. Do they go throught the great trib? Of course, I've never claimed otherwise, however, the great trib ENDS YEARS BEFORE THE END OF THE 70TH WEEK!!! There is no 6th seal, 6th trumpet or 6th vial timing. There is no 7th seal, 7th trump, 7th vial timing. It's all made up by how you interpret prophecy, which no offense, I think is all wrong, but hey, you're entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. Every now and then I do get a nugget of good info from you and for that I'm appreciative, however, imo, your timeline is severely messed up but now so is mine, thus the OP. I don't have a better one to offer at this time but the HS keeps revealing stuff little by little and hopefully in the near future I will have a viable one to offer.

Per the Book of Daniel, the ending of the final "one week" (70th) is after the "time, times, and half a time" period of Dan.12:7. That equals the same time as the 42 months of Rev.13:5, and the 42 months of Rev.11:2. It is the 1260 days of Rev.11:3 that God's two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem. In the middle of Daniel's final "one week" the desolator is to break the "league" of Dan.11, end sacrifices in Jerusalem, and place the abomination of desolation idol for false idol worship, as per Dan.9:27 and the Dan.11 and 12 chapters. In 2 Thess.2 Paul showed that event of that false one sitting in the temple of God, playing God, until Christ comes to destroy him with the brightness of His coming. So all... those Scriptures point as evidence that Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord" is what ends... that final 70th week of Dan.9:27.

And those Scripture references above that I've given are only 'some' of the Biblical proof for what I've been saying. I can cover each one of them in-depth line upon line too instead of just referencing them. But what have YOU presented from The Scriptures to counter all that? Not much really; you have just skipped over relevant Scripture and inserted the doctrines you've learned from men instead. And how can that affect your stand in Christ for what's coming in the near future when the tribulation begins? It can affect your perception in God's Word so that you become deceived in not knowing who the first messiah is going to be, the believing on "another Jesus" warning like Paul mentioned in 2 Cor.11. I don't want any of my Christian brethren to fall to that, and that's why I am so direct with my manner.

Your words: "Armageddon is a "day of the Lord" type event, the same timing as the Rev.6:14-17 verses. It happens on the 7th Vial per that Scripture."

Well, it's not a "type" of the day of the Lord, it's part of it and it occurs years after Rev.6:14-17and no the 7th vial is not Armageddon. It's about the destruction of the "city" of Babylon which isn't the apostate church, it's not catholicism, it's not a faceless financial organization, it's not a generic term for false religions and it's not Jerusalem. Armageddon occurs shortly after that event.

No, the Rev.6:14-17 verses are "day of the Lord" events. That's when Christ comes "as a thief in the night". You have failed to study God's Old Testament prophets about that, because those events are going to happen rapidly, suddenly, at an instant like God showed through Isaiah.


Armageddon occurs ON the 7th Vial...

6th Vial Events:

Rev 16:14-21
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Armageddon is the name of the place those armies against Christ are gathered for that "great day of God Almighty". It's literally Megiddo, an area just north of Jerusalem. But I believe it is more symbolic of the "day of the Lord" events itself that will occur over all... the earth at Christ's coming. It is a direct parallel to the event of Zephaniah 3:8-9. On that 6th Vial is when those armies are gathered in prep for God pouring out His wrath upon them. That actual time of the pouring is with the next 7th Vial events. On this 6th Vial, Christ is still... giving His warning to His Church on earth to be on watch because He comes "as a thief". That mean NO RAPTURE here yet even at this point... of the 6th Vial.


7th VIal Events:

Rev.16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

That "great earthquake" is the same one of Rev.11:13 that happens at the ending of the 2nd Woe, and begins the 3rd Woe events of Christ's coming on the 7th Trumpet. The earlier mention of earthquakes in Revelation were only prepatory for this great one here to emphasize the time of Christ's coming and His cup of wrath upon the nations at His coming, ON "the day of the Lord". That is the same... exact... timing... as the Rev.6:14-17 events on the 6th Seal.

That's the time of the fall of the "great city" Babylon Harlot (Jerusalem), and also the fall of the "cities of the nations". That means world-wide.


Rev.16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Same exact event of Rev.6:14 with the heaven departing as a scroll, with every mountain and island moved out of their places.


Rev.16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
(KJV)

All these are "day of the Lord" events. The Old Testament parallel to that great hail event is in Ezekiel 38 through 39, which results in the valley of the dead that will be called Hammongog.


Then with the start of Rev.17:1, John is being given a wider scope view of the Harlot city and its destruction.

Rev 17:1
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
(KJV)

So, what timing is this now with the view of Rev.17 in relation to those previous Rev.16 events of the 7th Vial? Likewise here, like between the end of Rev.6 and Rev.7, we have to move our timeline reckoning back to the tribulation timing. That's when this Babylon harlot will be in operation for the end, on Daniel's "one week" of Dan.9:27, just prior to the time of Christ's coming and the day of His wrath. And then in Rev.18 we're shown the Babylon harlot's destruction is complete.

EVEN with the Rev.18:4 verse we have to move back in the timeline when the Babylon harlot is in operation for the tribulation period, because it's a warning for God's people to spiritually come out of her so as to not suffer her plagues that come upon her in "one hour". And that is written right among Scripture there about Babylon's destruction in the past... tense.

This is why we have to be careful to note each 'event' given in our Lord's Revelation line upon line, and even phrase by phrase. It's because the timelines change that quickly with how John was given it.

 

[mark s]

Have you in any way here in this post presented Scripture to support your doctrine?

No, veteran, we've not even begun to have a doctrinal discussion. While I made a doctrinal post to Trekson - not even to you - you replied to me with insults. That was the beginning of our exchange.

But so long as you refuse to acknowledge your actions, such a discussion will not begin, because I will not participate in such a counterproductive discussion, where, in place of reasonable discussion, whenever you have difficulty addressing a point, you simply sling out more insults in an attempt to bully your way through.

You would have done better by leaving things where they were.

Yes, I admit, I pretty much knew this was a fool's errand when I began.

It's very unfortunate.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[teleiosis]

The basic difference in understanding veteran's stance versus Trekson's is whether Revelation's account within the story about the Scroll and its seven Seals is an opening, broad, linear narrative or is supposed to be read as having the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls happening simultaneously.

In the text - the seven Seals allow the Scroll to be opened. Without a change of scene in the Heavenly realm, then the Trumpets go forth.

Further in the text, in a detailed parallel account of Rev chapters 13-16 (inclusive) [to the Seal/Scroll chronology of Rev 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13)] - we find in Revelation 15:1 that the Bowls are last of God's Wrath. That statement of truth does not allow Trumpets 2 through 7 to sound simultaneously with the Bowls! The text even includes that with them, God's Wrath is completed, which begs the question whether God's Wrath has already begun - it did: on the Day of the Lord right after the Harvest. The two Angels who come out of the Temple supply the blood for the Day of the Lord, and the other "manages" the fire which burns a third of the earth.

So why does veteran insist that all three happen simultaneously? So he can insist that the Last Trumpet is the same as the seventh Trumpet - and this has to be constructed because the Great Multiude represent the raptured Elect!

In keeping with Mark S., please try to address the point in response and not attack the man.

 

[tgwprophet]

Trekson wrote: " Terry, I see no point in going any farther because if you really believe this..."Again the woman is a woman is a woman and the child is a child is a child is Jesus. The woman gives actual birth to the second comming of Jesus who is borrn a child and ascends to Heaven."

Then for me at least, you've destroyed any credibility you might have had! "

Hi Trekson, Should you not limit your idea of my credibility to only that particular aspect and allow each aspect to present their own credibilityt? There are many reasons I made that statement. The main reason is that it does not just stop with a woman giving birth but then also continues with eplannations providing descriptions of a real life woman and real life child, why do that if it is not real. I do not take away and validity from you except in areas where I disagree, please explain why I should.
I considered the church as being given Eagles wins and wondered how big an air plane would be needed to fly a church to the wilderness, I also considered the same thing if tis church was Jerusalem or Israel, each one needing an even bigger plane. Next, I considered just the congregation and those comprising the church but the building being excluded... What I arrived at was the need for an air plane providing the eagles wings that are much smaller and an achievable movement. With this in mind, I considered this "church" hiding it's light becasue it is being hidded in a wilderness and so it's light is then hidden also, this is not in agreement with God's Word... one's light should illuminate that others can see it. This contradiction does not exist if the woman is a woman is a women.


Rex Wrote: " Hi terry, good to see you, Whats the word from the front lines? "
Hi Rex, Did you mean by saying front lines in reference to my claims of teaching the two witnesses? I have not recently had any visions and Word of knowledge has been referenced to other sapects surrounding me than those of a Revelation type. Plus, my thoughts right now many be jumbled for a bit, My sister @ 57 just passed away after a couple decades of very poor physical health thanks to a stomach stapling type sugery to help her lose weight aslo cost her lost of her immune system. And the reversal operation did not help her immune system. So she lost functions of both kidneys, her pancrease and her liver. Things in my life became hectic recently, so I would ask you to give more definitions as to what you mean by front lines. I know i could be attacked for claiming I know the two witnesses and why did they not heal her, or why did I not ask... the reason for that is simple...healing is not their power or part of their agenda.. though I would like healing to be part of their program and they would as well, and... she is in a much better place now. I have felt no sence of loss as I stand on the Words of Jesus - rejoyce the death and mourn the birth. However, my jumbled thoughts are becasue our mom and dad's pain. Mom is 76 and da is 82, bot have pretty severe physical problems as well. My brothers and sister have severe loss sensations and I too love my departed sister, thank God thier perspective on death is close to mine.

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Spirit Covenant, on 21 November 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

" 12 As for My people, children are their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, And destroy the way of your paths." "

I wonder if this reference is related to such things in USA as child support? Sorry if I sound like a male chovinist... of which I am not. But, I have see the courts run over men conserning child support and at the same time giving a woman power and authority over a man they divorced. As an example of this to clarify... A friend of mine has his retirement garnished for child support concerning kids that are all well over 30. See he was an over-head crane operator and made big bucks, right after the divorce he lost his job due to econmy propblems from the company. The court refused to lower the child support and his next job did not pay anything close to his previous income. Fight it as much as he could afford (hard to so when you can no longer hire a lawyer) the California court denied him lowered support costs. So now he has his retirement garnished for the reast of his life. ( with less than 1/2 of his heart working that will not be long.) Next... he got re-married and was with her 10 years... ten she divorced him and got alimony from the court, another huge chunk gone. She had decided she liked women more than men and so lives off that alimony and has no ntention of ever marrying a man again. This friend has been paying alimony to her longer than she had been married to him... some government system huh? Is my friend mean? nope a gentile man and a kind man. So children have oppressed him and women rule over him. My cousin had no problem paying child support (even providing money not sent through Child Support) and yet he was called or treated like a dead beat dad... becasue this is standard operating procedure when marriages break up. The courts would have liked to treat me that way as well but their problem was my son wanted to be with me, and so i got custody. When my mother and dad got divorced, I went with my Dad. There were 5 of us... my dad had to pay child support for 4 kids... Mom and dad's income were very close to the same. So dad paid child support for 4 kids and received none for me. He should have paid for only 3 kids, since the child support was so high, my brothers and sisters enjoyed a decent lifestyle, all the while my dad could only provide me a meager existance - some fairness.

This in no way means I do not know some dead beat dads - they are but a couple examples where children ( becasue of the courts ) have oppressed their dad. Ok, well this was just a thought we may consider. USA has been the root of divorce for many years. I wonder how many other countries emulate these senerios.

 

[teleiosis]

I considered the church as being given Eagles wins and wondered how big an air plane would be needed to fly a church to the wilderness, I also considered the same thing if tis church was Jerusalem or Israel, each one needing an even bigger plane. Next, I considered just the congregation and those comprising the church but the building being excluded... What I arrived at was the need for an air plane providing the eagles wings that are much smaller and an achievable movement. With this in mind, I considered this "church" hiding it's light becasue it is being hidded in a wilderness and so it's light is then hidden also, this is not in agreement with God's Word... one's light should illuminate that others can see it. This contradiction does not exist if the woman is a woman is a women.

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring —those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

The woman "Israel" (see Genesis 37:9-10 - this woman symbolizes all of Israel) is differentiated from her "offspring". The Church is not the woman Israel. She (the remnant Jews who flee) is given a hiding place. We are then the target of the King of the North, and with two laws enacted with the erection of the talking image of him, the Great Tribulation ensues and the Elect would be entirely wiped off the face of the earth if not for the sudden cessation of that time by God the Father when He has Jesus return on the Day of the Lord.

Remember: Jesus said we would be "handed over," and to not try to save our lives and so lose them eternally. We are commanded not to worship the abomination nor to take the mark of the beast. Why were the five foolish virgins excluded from the Wedding? They had "bought" oil - and to do so means they had to have had the mark of the beast.

Remember: Some will not see death when they exchange mortal for immortal and imperishable bodies! However, for the bulk of us, dying before the Day of the Lord just means we get a "six-foot headstart" on those who are still alive and remain after the Great Tribulation.

And what about those who lose their life for Jesus' sake? They will be numbered among the fifth Seal martyrs and they will receive a special crown: the victor's crown (Rev 2:10). And when we each have to give an account of our lives, theirs will be a story well worth listening to!

 

[veteran]

No, veteran, we've not even begun to have a doctrinal discussion. While I made a doctrinal post to Trekson - not even to you - you replied to me with insults. That was the beginning of our exchange.

But so long as you refuse to acknowledge your actions, such a discussion will not begin, because I will not participate in such a counterproductive discussion, where, in place of reasonable discussion, whenever you have difficulty addressing a point, you simply sling out more insults in an attempt to bully your way through.



Yes, I admit, I pretty much knew this was a fool's errand when I began.

It's very unfortunate.

Love in Christ,
Mark

I've been posting on this thread with retrobyter, teleosis, and trekson BEFORE you even came here to throw out your pre 70th week rapture idea.

I called you on it, and you have STILL not Biblically proven anything about it. And it's obvious you came here looking... for a way to do personal insulting instead like a TROLL.

The basic difference in understanding veteran's stance versus Trekson's is whether Revelation's account within the story about the Scroll and its seven Seals is an opening, broad, linear narrative or is supposed to be read as having the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls happening simultaneously.

In the text - the seven Seals allow the Scroll to be opened. Without a change of scene in the Heavenly realm, then the Trumpets go forth.

You're jumping way aheady of yourself with that trumpet relation idea.

We're shown in Rev.6 that only Christ is worthy to open up the book (scroll) and loose the seven seals that seal it. What is the purpose of a book or scroll? Ans: to impart information, understanding. So the events of the Seals are given to describe the signs of the end, the same 7 signs that Christ gave in His Olivet Discourse in Matt.24 and Mark 13. The seven trumpets and seven vials are about the same 7 signs Christ gave. I've even shown you how that is by showing how the various events given between each three sets are in direct parallel. And I didn't do that from any... tradition of men, but by simply staying in the Scripture as written and using common sense.


But with this, you've instituted a blatant LIE...

So why does veteran insist that all three happen simultaneously? So he can insist that the Last Trumpet is the same as the seventh Trumpet - and this has to be constructed because the Great Multiude represent the raptured Elect!

It is the Scripture ITSELF that shows us the EVENTS that occur on both the "last trump" of Paul, and the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11. And THAT is what I've been going by. But YOU have not! The Scripture shows that Paul's "last trump" idea IS the final 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, by their parallel EVENTS.

On Paul's "last trump" is the RESURRECTION and change at the "twinkling of an eye" from Isaiah 25.

On the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd final Woe and then Christ's reigining and His time of wrath, and reward to his servants.

The only difference is in their amount of DETAIL about the events of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord".


But what YOU have followed instead is the doctrines of men IF you believe we are 'raptured' out of here anytime prior to that "day of the Lord" or "last trump" or 7th Trumpet.

" 12 As for My people, children are their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, And destroy the way of your paths." "

I wonder if this reference is related to such things in USA as child support? Sorry if I sound like a male chovinist... of which I am not. But, I have see the courts run over men conserning child support and at the same time giving a woman power and authority over a man they divorced. As an example of this to clarify... A friend of mine has his retirement garnished for child support concerning kids that are all well over 30. See he was an over-head crane operator and made big bucks, right after the divorce he lost his job due to econmy propblems from the company. The court refused to lower the child support and his next job did not pay anything close to his previous income. Fight it as much as he could afford (hard to so when you can no longer hire a lawyer) the California court denied him lowered support costs. So now he has his retirement garnished for the reast of his life. ( with less than 1/2 of his heart working that will not be long.) Next... he got re-married and was with her 10 years... ten she divorced him and got alimony from the court, another huge chunk gone. She had decided she liked women more than men and so lives off that alimony and has no ntention of ever marrying a man again. This friend has been paying alimony to her longer than she had been married to him... some government system huh? Is my friend mean? nope a gentile man and a kind man. So children have oppressed him and women rule over him. My cousin had no problem paying child support (even providing money not sent through Child Support) and yet he was called or treated like a dead beat dad... becasue this is standard operating procedure when marriages break up. The courts would have liked to treat me that way as well but their problem was my son wanted to be with me, and so i got custody. When my mother and dad got divorced, I went with my Dad. There were 5 of us... my dad had to pay child support for 4 kids... Mom and dad's income were very close to the same. So dad paid child support for 4 kids and received none for me. He should have paid for only 3 kids, since the child support was so high, my brothers and sisters enjoyed a decent lifestyle, all the while my dad could only provide me a meager existance - some fairness.

This in no way means I do not know some dead beat dads - they are but a couple examples where children ( becasue of the courts ) have oppressed their dad. Ok, well this was just a thought we may consider. USA has been the root of divorce for many years. I wonder how many other countries emulate these senerios.

Before that Isaiah verse is destroyed, it's about the weak leaders over God's people when they fall astray from Him.

 

[teleiosis]

What is the purpose of a book or scroll? Ans: to impart information, understanding.

The Scroll is where the desolations which have been decreed are stored. Only after the Great Multitude arrives in Heaven inconjunction with the Day of the Lord's Last Trumpet is the seventh Seal finally broken allowing the Trumpets to go forth.

The seven trumpets and seven vials are about the same 7 signs Christ gave.

Negative. The seven Bowls are last; the order is sequential not in unison. You have not shown this - what you have is from yourself, a man. It is your tradition, yet you label any and all who oppose your dictation of how interpretation should be done as following their own minds. Do you have a mirror handy? It might help you remove the plank from your eye. P.S., calling Mark S. a "troll" is name-calling and that is to engage in an ad hominem attack.

But with this, you've instituted a blatant LIE...

And then you call me a liar. I am no liar. I have a different take than you and you're never going to be able to accept it. Everybody wants to be right and everybody hates to be told they're wrong, but with so many eschatologies out there - we can't all be right. We can all be wrong through... I'm sorry, but your take on things is not Gospel and having a different interpretation of prophecy than yours is not a lie.

I have pinpointed the part where we diverge and I've shown how you get to the point you do. You have to invert the text to keep your Post-Trib last day scenario intact. In the sequence of events, in the same scene as the Great Multitude arrive in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence, the seventh Seal is broken, and then, and only then do the Trumpets appear. There is no change of scene; the events are listed in the order in which they happen from John's viewpoint in Heaven.

It is the Scripture ITSELF that shows us the EVENTS that occur on both the "last trump" of Paul, and the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11.

Negative again. I have already shown through two proofs of Scripture that the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God’s Wrath. None of you classical Post-Tribbers have been able to disprove it; you just repeat your assertion and ignore the argument against. This is what happens when someone is so filled with their vision they can’t see.

And THAT is what I've been going by. But YOU have not! The Scripture shows that Paul's "last trump" idea IS the final 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, by their parallel EVENTS.

LOL. Now you’re trying to steal my tool of analysis and playing on my field of battle. There you lose badly. Your supposition of like events is because you have already come to a conclusion as to when the Day of the Lord is, and you do this quite apart from the whole of Scripture.

The Day of the Lord comes at some unknown time after the shortened Great Tribulation.
The Great Multitude arrives in Heaven after the Day of the Lord.
The Wrath of God follows in the Seal/Scroll chronology of Rev 4-11.

In the one ‘seven’ as shown by Rev chapters 13-16, the detailed parallel account to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology, the Harvest comes before the Wrath of God which culminates at Armageddon.

 

[veteran]

The Scroll is where the desolations which have been decreed are stored. Only after the Great Multitude arrives in Heaven inconjunction with the Day of the Lord's Last Trumpet is the seventh Seal finally broken allowing the Trumpets to go forth.

There is no rapture event written of in those 6th Seal events, NOR in the Rev.7 events. You're adding that. A simple look at 'trumpet' and 'vial' events shows how you are wrong...

Rev 11:2-3
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(KJV)

What timing is that 42 months, or 1260 days, for it's both the same amount of time? That... is the tribulation timing, the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, the latter half of Daniel's final "one week" of Dan.9:27. It's these verses...

Dan 7:21-22
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
(KJV)

That war against Christ's saints ONLY ends when "the Ancient of days" (Christ) comes. That's when the time comes for Christ's saints to possess the kingdom.

Dan 7:25
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
(KJV)

That "time and times and the dividing of time" equals three and one-half years, the same timing as 42 months or 1260 days. It is the same "time, times, and half a time" nourishing of the symbolic woman of Rev.12:14 that follow God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev.12:17).


Rev 13:5-8
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(KJV)

Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
(KJV)

The 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period began back at Rev.9:13, and continues all the way through to Rev.11:14-15 with the final 7th Trumpet (except for Rev.10 which is a parenthetical chapter). Common sense tells us that SINCE the beast of Rev.13 is given to make war with the saints, and overcome them for 42 months, then that is TRIBULATION timing, which means Christ's coming is not yet at that point, for our Lord Jesus comes to end... the great tribulation period He taught in Matt.24. Paul affirms that too in the 2 Thess.2 chapter.

So what then, will you just agree to the lie from men's doctrines that these "saints" are not servants of Christ Jesus? They are... servants of Christ Jesus, as that Scripture connection was made in the Rev.12:14-17 verses about those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. And I haven't even mentioned Christ's warning to His Church still on earth at the 6th VIAL timing saying He comes "as a thief" and be careful to keep ones garments, the very same kind of warning Apostle Paul gave the Church in 1 Thess.5 right after... he had expounded upon the Church being "caught up" at Christ's coming in the previous 1 Thess.4 chapter! This is all very simple to follow as written in God's Word, it just takes a bit of self-discipline to keep it straight.

Negative. The seven Bowls are last; the order is sequential not in unison.

Not according to what Christ said in Rev.16 they aren't.

Rev 16:12-19
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
(KJV)

Why is our Lord Jesus giving His saints that warning at Rev.16:15 on the 6th VIAL timing? It's because He has not come yet per that timeline! So what Trumpet events do those 6th Vial events go with? It's simple, the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing of Rev.9:13 to Rev.11:14-15.


Time of God's Wrath Link On The 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial:

Rev.6:14-17 - 6th Seal - time of God's Wrath
Rev.11:15-18 - 7th Trumpet - time of God's Wrath
Rev.16:16-19 - 7th Vial - time of God's Wrath

It's easy!!!

You have not shown this - what you have is from yourself, a man. It is your tradition, yet you label any and all who oppose your dictation of how interpretation should be done as following their own minds. Do you have a mirror handy? It might help you remove the plank from your eye. P.S., calling Mark S. a "troll" is name-calling and that is to engage in an ad hominem attack.

I just SHOWED YOU AGAIN ABOVE! Focus on the subject of the verses as written, and not on me.

But God has blinded you... for a reason, which I know why. It's because you're listening to pop fad traditions of men taught you from men's religious organizational systems instead of staying in God's Word for yourself, the very same problem the unbelieving Jews had at Christ's first coming.

And then you call me a liar. I am no liar. I have a different take than you and you're never going to be able to accept it. Everybody wants to be right and everybody hates to be told they're wrong, but with so many eschatologies out there - we can't all be right. We can all be wrong through... I'm sorry, but your take on things is not Gospel and having a different interpretation of prophecy than yours is not a lie.

The difference with what you said is how you wrongly claimed a false agenda against me regarding Paul's "last trump" idea and the 7th Trumpet. You did NOT even go into ANY line upon line comparison between the two Scriptures to try and prove your point. Doing that means you presented a LIE against me that you were not able to back up in those Scriptures. By that, you prove all the more how you're not staying in God's Word.

I have pinpointed the part where we diverge and I've shown how you get to the point you do. You have to invert the text to keep your Post-Trib last day scenario intact. In the sequence of events, in the same scene as the Great Multitude arrive in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence, the seventh Seal is broken, and then, and only then do the Trumpets appear. There is no change of scene; the events are listed in the order in which they happen from John's viewpoint in Heaven.

The only thing you've done is to INSERT a doctrine of man like a Pre-trib or Pre-wrath Rapture into the Scripture where it is not written. Simple as that. You're not staying in God's Word. You're staying on something else. And you can make all those false affirmations you want, but it's not going to change the Scripture as actually written one iota. God's Wrath event is given on the 6th Seal, the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Vial. Do I have need to quote those Revelation Scriptures to you once again here?

Negative again. I have already shown through two proofs of Scripture that the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God’s Wrath. None of you classical Post-Tribbers have been able to disprove it; you just repeat your assertion and ignore the argument against. This is what happens when someone is so filled with their vision they can’t see.

What proof??? You have YET to give a line upon line comparison of the events of those two Scripture. Guess I'll have to do that here for you, since you're not willing, and most likely unable...

1 Cor 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
(KJV)

Why do many preachers totally omit where Apostle Paul was pulling from with that "twinkling of an eye" change on that "last trump", and especially his quote of "Death is swallowed up in victory"? It's in Isaiah 25...

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
(KJV)

Those above Isaiah 25 events have NEVER... happened yet in history. They occur with that "last trump" Paul mentioned in conjunction with the change of all peoples on earth "at the twinkling of an eye". THAT... is when "Death is swallowed up in victory" like Paul said. The MAIN subject Paul was covering in the 1 Cor.15 is the RESURRECTION that's to occur on the day of Christ's coming! That's is the 1 Thess.4 "caught up" event of gathering His Church, and it is ALSO the same time of the John 5:28-29 event. ALL peoples on earth are going to be 'changed' on that "last trump", not just Christ's servants still alive on earth for that. That occurs on "the day of the Lord", the very day Paul shows that Christ comes "as a thief in the night" per 1 Thess.5.


NOW The 7th Trumpet Events In Comparison To That "last trump" Event:

Rev 11:15-19
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."

What does it mean when ALL the kingdoms of this world become those of The LORD and of His Christ, and He then reigns forever? It means HE HAS RETURNED. That happens on the "day of the Lord", and it's written in various ways all throughout God's Word! That example of Isaiah 25 above which Paul quoted from is just one of many of those examples.


Rev.11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, "We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned."

That idea is in the 'present-future prophetic' sense associated with that 7th Trumpet timing of Christ's future coming reign over ALL the earth, literally in Jerusalem (like end of Zechariah 14 for one). So make no mistake, Christ is reiging over all nations on earth literally, at this point, meaning He has 'taken' that reign by this point. And how do the nations on earth feel about it?...

Rev.11:18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
(KJV)

The nations were angry? (enraged per Greek orgizo) At what? Because the kings, the rich men, the powerful, the mean man, etc., all... lost their power to rule on earth at that 7th Trumpet. It is the VERY event of the Rev.6:14-17 verses on the 6th Seal...

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(KJV)

Let's do a check now. Just what timing is that day of God's wrath upon the wicked on earth? ON the "day of the Lord", which is ALSO the timing of Christ's coming "as a thief" and the burning of the elements of 2 Peter 3:10. That is the bringing down "the noise of strangers" back in the Isaiah 25 Scripture. Only The LORD and His Christ will be exalted on that day.

So like I said, God's Wrath on the day of Christ's coming to gather His Church is what those 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial events are about, as ALSO... the "last trump" events Apostle Paul taught.