ALL TIMELINES NEED TO BE REVISED

[tgwprophet]

Can we dispense with name calling and mud slinging .. leave that to the politicians, they are much better at it. Learning others perspctives that our own faith may grow should be the objective. To achieve this is to engage the perspectives of others until their understanding in your mind is complete through consideration, then spearate the chaff from the wheat that we can make - then break bread with each other.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

Rex: Daniel 9:27 describes the end of the seventy 'sevens.' So does the last part of Daniel 9:26. They match at that point.

The end hasn't come yet. Jesus did not "force" any limited-time, seven-year covenant with many. He "cut a deal" with everyone for all time.

Your view involves destroying other people's eschatologies. That presumes you're right. You're not. I've looked over your work and there are serious holes in it.

Now you want to use the Bible as a club and beat your enemies with it, again on the false presumption that you're right. A teacher who uses a paddle is what you want to be? First teach right, and then you'll know how to discipline your pupils.

And it's not a board game at all; it's serious business. I suggest you get your theology right before you tell me how to do my eschatology.

P.S. It's "Your problem is that you're not..." and not "Your problem is that your not..."

You don't want to get into grammar and spelling! We ALL have our foibles in that department! My mother was an English major and DRILLED my sisters and me about our grammar. I've come to the point where grammar and spelling errors seemingly JUMP out of the page, but I "bite my tongue," so to speak, and let it slide, for the most part. I cringe every time I see a split infinitive, but I let it slide. It tears me up inside to see a sentence end in a preposition, but I let it slide. Do you really want to go there?

 

[veteran]

You have a lot of assumptions here.

1. When Paul describes how the Saints (Elect, Harvest wheat) are changed, or exchange mortal for immortal (as he goes on so long to explain) - does not mean that the wicked are changed too. Paul does not address God's Wrath in Thessalonians or Corinthians to detail it; just that we don't suffer it and that it ultimately destroys the Man of Lawlessness. Isaiah 25 sets the sequence of Wrath, Ingathering, Millennial peace. Isaiah 25 does not have the separation of Sheep and Goats happening as you do before the Millennium for your "heaven on earth" scenario whereby the Saints do all the heavy lifting in defeating the wicked. That is an ego-pumping proposition.

You're relying on the old ideas of John Darby about some secret rapture. God's Word does not support that idea. The Isaiah 25 Scripture is one of the places in the OT where Apostle Paul was pulling from about the "last trump" change. Isa.25 includes ALL nations, not just those in Christ Jesus still alive on earth when Jesus returns. You clearly haven't done enough Old Testament study in the prophets to understand that, and are instead relying upon a seminary theology centered within the New Testament writings only.

Paul covered two required changes to have Eternal Life through Christ within the 1 Cor.15 chapter. The first change is the change from a body of corruption to a body of incorruption ("corruptible must put on incorruption"). That change is going to happen to everybody on earth, for that is the removing of the vail spread over all nations of Isaiah 25. The second required change is the change of "this mortal" putting on "immortality", which is ONLY for those in Christ when He comes. In the Greek those are 4 different Greek words to explain those two required changes. That's why Christ pointed to 2 different 'types' of resurrection at His return per John 5:28-29, one for the just and one for the wicked.

2. John 5:28-29 follows John 5:24-25 and is one of five times in the Bible that Jesus describes two resurrections of the dead. The first is only for the Living, the righteous. The second (after the Millennium) gathers both Living and Dead and then sorts the righteous from the wicked. There is no evidence in the Bible for the wicked to be changed when the Day of the Lord comes and they're hiding in their liars.

John 5:24-25 was about the time of Christ's Resurrection. John 5:28-29 is about the time of His 2nd coming when both the resurrection of the just and the unjust occurs. Both examples are self-explanatory IF one simply reads them as written. Once again, you're relying on the seminary theologists who stay centered within the NT writings while heavily disregarding the OT prophecies about these events. Zechariah 14:16-19 is enough to show how they've missed this simple matter in God's Word about the resurrection of the unjust at Christ's coming.

Because you don't understand this, it's also why you don't understand how the 2nd inferred resurrection of Rev.20 is 'another' resurrection unto righteousness at the end after God's great white throne judgment. Many of God's people are going to fall away for the end of this world, and their "mortal" part will not have "immortality" during Christ's Milennium reign. They will bear their iniquity and stand in judgment all through Christ's thousand years reign, as shown in Ezekiel 44. Only Christ's elect who reign with Him for that period will have put on immortality through Him.

This is what the "second death" of Rev.20 is about, which is not a second flesh death, but a death of one's spirit with soul in the later lake of fire event. All those who stand in judgment during that period will still... be subject to that "second death". Apostle Paul was actually covering this within the 1 Cor.15 chapter when he described 2 conditional changes in the Greek of 1 Cor.15:53-54. We ALL are going to be made alive in a "spiritual body" when Christ comes, the unjust also ("resurrection of damnation"). But it's the condition of one's 'soul' that matters, and there will still be many in that time of Christ's thousand years reign with liable to die souls (i.e., still subject to the "second death").

3. Your "man" idea that somehow both are changed is also a "doctrine of man." The few Elect, who are still alive and remain after the shortened Great Tribulation (which only begins at the midpoint and does NOT last seven years - or even the remaining three and a half) - are changed instantaneously, or alternately as allowed by the underlying Greek verb, exchange their mortal bodies for immortal ones (which also explains how bodies could be flung around and there would be carcasses coincidental with the Rapture) - are the exception and not the rule. Most people, even the Elect, do not go through this process. Only a few out of hundreds of millions... perhaps just a few million world-wide. The Dead in Christ, the Living, righteous souls from Paradise, have no mortal body anymore and are translated directly into immortal and imperishable bodies. Nothing in Revelation chapters 19-22, Isaiah's Millennium passages or Ezekiel's later chapters, suggests that the immortal Elect live alongside mortal people.

Your focus is stil mostly on today's flesh order with all that, which is why you've failed to understand it. The idea of resurrection includes Paul's matter of those still alive on earth being 'changed' at the twinkling of an eye on the "last trump". In that 1 Cor.15 chapter, he is specifically... covering just what TYPE of body the resurrection is. And he gave us two major clues as to what type of body it is, a "spiritual body" and the "image of the heavenly", not of flesh and blood. He pointed to an angelic type body with that. Our Lord Jesus did too in Mark 12:25 when He described those of the resurrection being "as the angels which are in heaven". In John 5:28-29, He was specific that will happen for the wicked also, the "resurrection of damnation", at the SAME hour...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

There is no thousand year separation written there. Both types of resurrection occur at the SAME time with the hour of Christ's second coming.

In 1 Thess.4, Paul explained that at Christ's coming He will bring the asleep saints with Him when He comes, and will then gather the saints still alive on earth. So the saints that sleep in Jesus are ALREADY there with Him, as per Paul in 2 Cor.5. And what did Paul show when Christ comes per the next 1 Thess.5 chapter? He returns on the "day of the Lord".

What else is to occur on that "day of the Lord"???

 

[teleiosis]

You're relying on the old ideas of John Darby about some secret rapture.

John 5:24-25 was about the time of Christ's Resurrection.

If we were to argue on the premise of your understanding, we'd be the worse for it.

Just as you have absolutely no understanding of the Pre-Wrath sequence-of-events I've laid out, your take on John 5:24-25 is just as flawed.

This is one of five times that Jesus describes two resurrections. The first is ONLY for the Living, the righteous, the Dead in Christ. The second is for both.

Dan 12:1 versus Dan 12:2
Mt 24:31 versus Mt 25:31
The parable of the wheat and tares versus the parable of the fish net in Mt 13.
The Great Multitude of Rev 7 versus the Bema Seat Judgment of Rev 20.
John 5:24-25 versus John 5:28-29.

John 5:24-25 has a dual application. It describes how we come to Christ. It also aptly describes the calling of the Dead in Christ which happens at the Last Trumpet. The raising of so many Saints results in the Great Multitude.

I can tell you about all the diverse things which will happen on the Day of the Lord, but so far you've not shown any ability to understand either what others have to say or what is in Scripture.

 

[tgwprophet]

Veteran wrote: " You're relying on the old ideas of John Darby about some secret rapture. "

The term rapture may have been introduced and even coined by such as Darby, but the words in scripture that describe it remain valid and goes along with the coined term " rapture. " Without this "rapture " thing taking place there would be a multitude of people going through Tribulation that, no matter how Christian they are, would still end up with the Mark of the Beast on them. A Rapture easily explains how they can be spared the Beast's Mark.

Right before Soddom and Gamorah was destroyed the prophet asked our God... what if there were believers in those cities... After some haggeling, God told the prophet to bring them out... and so should it be with Believers caught in Tribulation via rapture.

Now, just because someone you figure as a person of error should say something right, does not mean what they said that was right, in error. Joesph Stalin said; it is not those who voe that count but rather those that count the vote ( not verbatim ) Although he, Stalin, certainly was preverse in much of his thoughts and acttions, this aspect is true all the same.

 

[teleiosis]

The rapture is in Scripture, and unlike the position of Pre-Trib - it is not secret. Every eye will see Jesus comes and for the Saints who remain and are left after the Great Tribulation - 1Th 3:13.

 

[tgwprophet]

The actual word " rapture " is not in scripture.... however, a description of an event that was labeled " rapture " is in Scripture. Althpugh this event is not a secret the time in which it takes place is a secret.

 

[veteran]

If we were to argue on the premise of your understanding, we'd be the worse for it.

Just as you have absolutely no understanding of the Pre-Wrath sequence-of-events I've laid out, your take on John 5:24-25 is just as flawed.[/quote]
[/QUOTE]
That's just your opinion with nothing to back it up.

This is one of five times that Jesus describes two resurrections. The first is ONLY for the Living, the righteous, the Dead in Christ. The second is for both.

Dan 12:1 versus Dan 12:2
Mt 24:31 versus Mt 25:31
The parable of the wheat and tares versus the parable of the fish net in Mt 13.
The Great Multitude of Rev 7 versus the Bema Seat Judgment of Rev 20.
John 5:24-25 versus John 5:28-29.

John 5:24-25 has a dual application. It describes how we come to Christ. It also aptly describes the calling of the Dead in Christ which happens at the Last Trumpet. The raising of so many Saints results in the Great Multitude.

I can tell you about all the diverse things which will happen on the Day of the Lord, but so far you've not shown any ability to understand either what others have to say or what is in Scripture.

Regarding the subject of resurrection, John 5:25 was about the time of Christ's Resurrection. It's related to His preaching The Gospel to the "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3. That's why He said there, "The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." It's related to the Isaiah 42:7 prophecy about His death and resurrection.

The Daniel 12:1-2 events are being described together about the trib to Christ's return, with Dan.12:2 paralleling John 5:28-29.

The Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scripture only mentions Christ's gathering of His elect after the trib. It does not reveal whether the wicked are 'changed' then at not, so you cannot try to use that.

With the parable of the tares, that follows agricultural terms, since it's about the harvesting of wheat in final. You separate the 'tares' from the wheat first and throw tares in the fire, then put the wheat up in the barn. Can't use that to show order of resurrection, etc., and anyone with common sense should realize that, simply because we know the "lake of fire" event is not until Christ's thousand years reign is over (as per Rev.20). So those 'tares' are around for a while before being cast into the fire, which shows our Lord Jesus was only using an analogy with the parable of the tares, as you don't see His mention of a Milennial time within it.

You're just throwing out Scripture in hope others will think you know what you're talking about, because the Rev.7 great multitude are shown having come out of great tribulation and are before Christ during His Milennial reign. That has nothing to do with some Darbyite idea of a 'rapture'.

Your ideas are based on men's seminary doctrines from misunderstanding in God's Word. Nothing but tethers that don't allow the deeper understanding required for the resurrection events of Rev.20.

You haven't understood how the idea of the Living from Rev.20:5 is to be understood for that time. The "first resurrection" of Rev.20 is only about Christ's elect that reign with Him for the thousand years. That is HOW the idea of the Living is applied in THAT time once Christ has returned. If one is not of that "first resurrection" then they are not among the Living meaning they are still subject to the "second death" at the end of the thousand years. It does not mean those 'dead' have not been resurrected yet. You along with many, have failed to understand that in that future time the ONLY death remaining is the "second death" Christ showed us in that Rev.20 chapter. You've failed to grasp how the 'dead' in that time mean spiritually dead, the "resurrection of damnation" who will still have liable to die souls but be present there during Christ's thousand years reign as per Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 44.

Veteran wrote: " You're relying on the old ideas of John Darby about some secret rapture. "

The term rapture may have been introduced and even coined by such as Darby, but the words in scripture that describe it remain valid and goes along with the coined term " rapture. " Without this "rapture " thing taking place there would be a multitude of people going through Tribulation that, no matter how Christian they are, would still end up with the Mark of the Beast on them. A Rapture easily explains how they can be spared the Beast's Mark.

Right before Soddom and Gamorah was destroyed the prophet asked our God... what if there were believers in those cities... After some haggeling, God told the prophet to bring them out... and so should it be with Believers caught in Tribulation via rapture.

Now, just because someone you figure as a person of error should say something right, does not mean what they said that was right, in error. Joesph Stalin said; it is not those who voe that count but rather those that count the vote ( not verbatim ) Although he, Stalin, certainly was preverse in much of his thoughts and acttions, this aspect is true all the same.

It's called 'harpazo' per the Greek, not rapture. The specific reason I do not like to use the word 'rapture' for the "caught up" event is because... of how men's doctrines have tainted God's Word about the timing and how Christ gathers His Church at His second coming with using that word 'rapture'. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is just another case like Darby's Pre-Trib Secret Rapture. Both WRONGLY ASSUME 'some' are 'changed' and others are not. Heck, one can go watch several crazy pre-trib rapture movies about it, people disappearing off airplanes, people vanishing in thin air while others remain. Some airline companies even have a policy that if one pilot is Christian, the other pilot cannot be, just IN CASE the rapture might be true, and that's showing what? It shows those airline managers are even 'duped' about the events of the change that Paul taught!

 

[whitestone]

Get rid of your ideas of futuristic "timelines" and accept that all is fulfilled in Us NOW To Day in us who've RECEIVED CHRIST, and then you will have perfect understanding

 

[teleiosis]

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.


Jn 5:25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

A time is coming and now has come... This describes TWO TIMES. One is yet to be, the other is at hand. John 5:25 has dual application. The "selective" nature of that calling is right in line with the Elect being the "choice" or "select" group called out. In the end-times, God will, with the Trumpet Call of God (not an Angel) call out the dead, and to those who hear, they will assemble. The Last Trumpet is an assembly trumpet - not an announcement trumpet - another distinction marking this Trumpet from the trumpets of God's Wrath.

Likewise the time has now come in this day, whenever the reader reads Jesus' Words. Spiritually dead, they come to "life" (spiritually as well) when they first believe. This call is selective too. Everyone hears it, but not everyone "hears" it. To some it is just noise. For us, it is the clarion call of God and our salvation.

 

[tgwprophet]

OK Veteran i see some of your points in the mis-use of rapture, though still it seems sifficient. Yeah, i agree the "movies" really don't care for facts, but rather popularity and box office turnouts. Certainly, ifthe word "rapture" or any word maybe was to become to distorted then the use of that word could envoke erroreous meanings and lead people astray.


Teleiosis... again... keep the faith...


Whitestone wrote: " Get rid of your ideas of futuristic "timelines" and accept that all is fulfilled in Us NOW To Day in us who've RECEIVED CHRIST, and then you will have perfect understanding "

Whitestone.. I can agree with you that all is fulfilled in us now.... however it still needs to be played. Here is why I can say this... God was not created by time, but rahter, God created time. What is it like without time? Everything is present. Of course without time... space is gone as well and so... everything is feel. WE do not have this capability, but God certainly does.

 

[veteran]

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.


Jn 5:25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

A time is coming and now has come... This describes TWO TIMES. One is yet to be, the other is at hand. John 5:25 has dual application. The "selective" nature of that calling is right in line with the Elect being the "choice" or "select" group called out. In the end-times, God will, with the Trumpet Call of God (not an Angel) call out the dead, and to those who hear, they will assemble. The Last Trumpet is an assembly trumpet - not an announcement trumpet - another distinction marking this Trumpet from the trumpets of God's Wrath.

Likewise the time has now come in this day, whenever the reader reads Jesus' Words. Spiritually dead, they come to "life" (spiritually as well) when they first believe. This call is selective too. Everyone hears it, but not everyone "hears" it. To some it is just noise. For us, it is the clarion call of God and our salvation.

Yes, the John 5:25 verse does... include the idea of the preaching of The Gospel to both the living and the dead (1 Pet.3). But it has NOTHING to do with some Pre-trib Rapture theory of man though.

The John 5:28-29 Scripture is for the time of Christ's SECOND coming. And Christ revealed there how BOTH types of resurrection occur at that same hour. Everyone is going to be in resurrection bodies on earth after Paul's "last trump" sounds.

 

[teleiosis]

Nope. You still missed it veteran.

The first Resurrection is only for the Living, the righteous, whether they be dead or alive (raptured).

The second Resurrection happens after the Millennium and clears out the halls of the dead both righteous (during the Millennium) and the wicked (Dead) of all time.

The Bible ALWAYS presents these in 1 - 2 sequence and it does so FIVE times in the Bible.

 

[veteran]

Nope. You still missed it veteran.

The first Resurrection is only for the Living, the righteous, whether they be dead or alive (raptured).

The second Resurrection happens after the Millennium and clears out the halls of the dead both righteous (during the Millennium) and the wicked (Dead) of all time.

The Bible ALWAYS presents these in 1 - 2 sequence and it does so FIVE times in the Bible.

I'm not the one who is wrong about the 2nd inferred resurrection of Rev.20. You're just following a tradition of men by rote.

The proper interpretation of "the dead" in Rev.20:5 is in regards to their spiritual condition, not flesh.

After Christ's second coming the concept of flesh death will be over, no more. The ONLY type of death remaining after that point is the "second death".


Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan is locked in his prison pit during Christ's thousand years reign with His elect. Then Satan is to be loosed one final time to go tempt the nations after the thousand years is over. Isaiah 14 gives us some events about some of Satan's servants in the pit with him that look at him and wonder, "Art thou also become weak as we? are thou become like unto us?" (Isa.14:10). So these nations without Christ are still active during Christ's reign, and some of Satan's hosts in the pit are still preserved then too.

In Rev.3 with Christ's Message to His elect of the Church of Philadelphia, He mentions about the "synagogue of Satan" to them, meaning Satan's followers. Christ tells them how He will make those to come worship at the feet of His elect. This is when that will occur, during Christ's thousand years reign.

This is also what the Isaiah 24:21-23 prophecy is about concerning some of Satan's followers like the kings of the earth in the last days being shut up in the pit prison during this thousand years reign by Christ, and their being visited later (i.e., for destruction at the end).


Rev.20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These that reign with Christ are... the "first resurrection" mentioned in the next verse. The "first resurrection" is the "resurrection of life" our Lord Jesus mentioned in John 5:28-29. All others are in the "resurrection of damnation" He also mentioned there.


Rev.20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Ezekiel 44, which is this Milennium thousand years reign by Christ, mentions how Christ's Zadok priests will be allowed to cross over and go among "the dead" for sake of a relative...

Ezek 44:23-26
23 And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.
25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
(KJV)

What perspective does this mean then for those "dead" in that future thousand years time? They've ALREADY been 'resurrected' because they are in the "resurrection of damnation".

This cannot... be understood in the flesh death sense, because it has nothing to do with flesh death for that future time. It's about SPIRITUAL DEATH of one's soul eternally. The first death is death of the flesh body. But the "second death" is the destruction of the spirit with soul in the later "lake of fire". That "second death" is the ONLY kind of death that remains at this point in Rev.20.


6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

There it is. Those of the "first resurrection" are NOT subject to the "second death". These priests of the "first resurrection" have specific duties in Christ for that time, and you just read part of them with the Ezekiel 44 example, i.e., as teachers.

Well WHO are they going to teach IF they only have been resurrected and everyone else is still 'dead' and buried in the ground? They're going to be teaching those of God's people that fell away, and... those of the nations, and even those of the "synagogue of Satan". Well, why and how do they do that if all those spiritually 'dead' are unconscious in the casket still, and to be cast into the lake of fire later anyway??

Simple, it's because these "dead" are not literally dead, but dead spiritually to their soul, and not all them will perish, as many of them will come to Christ DURING that thousand years, and then be of what resurrection? Think (since a "first resurrection" is mentioned...).


Rev.20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Here we go. Christ's thousand years reign has ended at this point, and now it's time for Satan to be loosed one final time, but upon whom?

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

There it is, upon "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth". Those are of the "resurrection of damnation". Recall Rev.22:14-15 where Christ shows them OUTSIDE the gates of the holy city (a place of separation).


9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Satan tempts these nations AFTER they have been taught during the thousand years by Christ's elect priests. That means they 'know' the Truth at this point and are without excuse if they allow themselves to be deceived by Satan's final assault at the end of the thousand years. Those of them that fall to that are then destroyed by God's fire. What about those of them that do not fall to Satan's deception in that?


10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Finally, Satan is thrown into the lake of fire.


11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him That sat on it, from Whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Which "dead" are these? They're the same spiritually dead of the nations of the previous verses, along with the 'dead' of Satan's host that were with him in the pit.

If the "first resurrection" is the ONLY resurrection unto Christ with Eternal Life, then the majority of God's people would go into the lake of fire, for many will fall away and be among the spiritually dead during Christ's thousand years reign.

Rev.20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

Why is that "book of life" being checked here if all those "dead" go into the "lake of fire"?

It's because some of those WILL accept Christ during His thousand years reign, and will not be deceived by Satan's final tempting. So what 'resurrection' will those be of? Not the "first resurrection", because that one already happened only for Christ's elect at the START of His thousand years reign.

If I tell you to look at fruit I'm pulling out of a paper bag and I say, "Here's the FIRST apple", what would you expect to be the next piece I remove from that bag? The SECOND apple. This is who that "first resurrection" is implying there will be another one LIKE it afterwards, NOT one unto death, but ANOTHER ONE UNTO ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH CHRIST JESUS. That is what the implied second resurrection is, one like the FIRST unto LIFE in Christ Jesus. And it's for these who were 'dead' but come to Christ during that time and through Faith overcome Satan's final temptation, and then they become Christ's property, having their sins blotted out and their names found at the last, in the book of Life.

 

[teleiosis]

I'm not the one who is wrong about the 2nd inferred resurrection of Rev.20. You're just following a tradition of men by rote.

This is silly. Guess what veteran: You're following the Post-Trib tradition of men too. You think you're unique? You think you're the first one to think like you do?



Five Times the Bible Presents Two Resurrections

There are four instances where two resurrections are mentioned in the Bible and a fifth that can be found in Jesus’ parables. The order of sequence is always the same; first for only the “Living,” then for both “Living and Dead.” The Bible can jump from one Resurrection to another in one-two fashion without mentioning the intervening time, as three of the four do, because of the nature of “gaps” in the Bible. The Resurrections represent the bookends of the Millennium. Jesus can go from one to the other and thus span a thousand years without mentioning them. An omission of a fact is not a commission of an error.

“Living” is used as Jesus uses the term here:

Mt 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Here, Jesus is speaking of people who have died, yet calls them “living.” “Living,” being capitalized, then refers to the spiritually living component of the Righteous. Using this analogy of life, much the Gospel accounts say Jesus is the “Son of the living God,” the corollary would be the “Dead” being synonymous with the Wicked. Thus, word interplay remains between the words: “living” and “dead,” which the reader will have to discern in Scripture such as can be found in Jn 5:25.

That the subsequent second Resurrection has any who are spiritually alive at all is due to the Millennium period. Some will live righteous lives during this period of Christ’s rule on the Earth over the nations. Those righteous people living and dying after the Rapture and during the future thousand year period require a second Resurrection where they can join the Elect.

The gap from one resurrection to the other returns this commentary to the tools of interpretation. The Bible allows for this transition because both are essentially the same, bracketing the Millennium and being bridged by the Rule of Christ. Their origin is from a speaker knowledgeable in God’s plan: Jesus. In Daniel, He is the Man in Linen, in the Gospels, Jesus speaks in the first person and in Revelation; He reveals it to John.

First Resurrection Just the Living
Second Resurrection Living and Dead

Daniel 12:1
But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered
Dan 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
________________________

Mt 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Mt 25:32-33; 46
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
…Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
_________________________

John 5:25
I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
_________________________

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:1; 4
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads… They follow the Lamb wherever he goes.

Revelation 20:4-5
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:11-12; 15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

…If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
________________________________

The sequence of events approach to Bible prophecy concerning the first and second Resurrection allows them to be presented one-two without difficulty because of the nature of “gaps” in Biblical prophecy. As presented in Daniel 12, the Man in Linen can go immediately from one to the other without any other mention of events which come in between. This is because concerning just Resurrections; He wanted to make clear an order. That this order is repeated twice in the Gospel by Jesus on separate occasions and then spelled out by Jesus to John in Revelation written decades later stresses the importance of understanding the order to discern a part of God’s plan of Salvation which will unite Jew and Gentile.

Reading Daniel 12:1 and 12:2 together confuses the action. Tellingly enough, without additional information as is given in the New Testament, the revelation the Man in Linen gives is as hidden as the two Advents of Christ in Isaiah 61:2. Is it any wonder why so many Jewish scholars missed and continue to miss the separation between the Servant Messiah in Jesus and the Messiah King they look forward to Him in the future? A gap in Bible prophecy can exist not only between two sentences as it is in Daniel, but even within a sentence as it is presented in Isaiah. Without recognizing it, an important distinction is overlooked and a terrible mistake in outlook can result: the Jews rejected Jesus. This, however, was part of God’s Plan.

Likewise in trying to pin down a time, when a prophet like Zechariah says, ‘there will be a day,’ or when Jesus says, ‘a time is coming;’ tells us nothing of when it comes: only that it will be. It is up to the reader to understand that an intervening time between days or times can exist, and that also those events enumerated by such prophets or Jesus need not occur on the same day. Imparting crucial tidbits of knowledge in this manner, Jesus acts in a manner consistent with the prophecy in Isaiah that the people would hear but not understand. Just as Daniel understood the desolation of Israel would last seventy years in Daniel 9:2 before Gabriel came to him to lay out the crucial aspect of the seventy ‘sevens;’ God hides His Plan within Scripture for those who seek Him. Using a sequence of events approach with the tools of prophecy which are demonstrated in Scripture, allows the seeker to see what has lain in plain sight but has been glossed over in so many readings.

The First Resurrection is only for the spiritually Living and includes some who are living bodily on the Earth. The Second Resurrection includes both spiritually Living from the Millennium and all the spiritually Dead from all time, who, as classes of people, are both all deceased at that point in time. Joining the Sheep to the Elect fulfills Paul’s promise that God has not forgotten Israel but will save all of them after the full number of the Gentiles have come in. While the Elect include nearly all who are Living at the first Resurrection (except for the Remnant and the meek who go into the Millennium); the Sheep will be added to Elect in Heaven after the Millennium. So not all who belong to the Living are yet included in the first Resurrection because some of them haven’t been born. There are important distinctions made during the Millennium Reign of Christ which substantially alters the rules for entry into eternal Life. The reason presented within this commentary is that the Millennium is for unbelieving Israel: the Jews, to be ultimately reunited with Christ, whom they rejected before.

Without Revelation, interpreting Daniel, Matthew and John as indicating two Resurrections a thousand years apart would be impossible. With the book of Revelation, however, seeing the differences in what is promised with the fullness of the Gentiles coming in before Israel is saved, then illuminates how some will “come to everlasting life” as Daniel puts it; that others will be like Sheep like Matthew has it, or “those who have done good” (as opposed to faith-based salvation) as John writes of Jesus’ words outside of the Church.

A fifth time?

In Matthew chapter 13, the parable of the wheat and tares (vv. 24-30, with an explanation in vv. 36-43) shows the wheat in the harvest, an important Rapture theme, being taken out of the field to the barn of Heaven before the tares (wicked) are burned in the field of this world. This supports a Pre-Wrath Rapture view: Rescue-then-Wrath.

Some confusion arises in v. 41 in which the weeds are taken out of the “Kingdom.” The argument is made against a Pre-Wrath presentation of the original parable that here, Jesus reverses Himself – now removing the tares rather than the wheat. However, in this explanation, Jesus is not talking about the world, but the Kingdom – which encompasses both Heaven and Earth. The fire then is Hades and Hell, and with their earthly and then Heavenly Judgment, the wicked are indeed “weeded out” of the Kingdom when left behind to die in God’s Wrath on earth. They will be resurrected at the second Resurrection and consigned to Hell for their eternal damnation.

The parable of the Wheat and Tares then has only the Living being saved to Heaven. It conforms to the Rapture theme using the Harvest analogy and specifically with the word to gather which is the root of the same word used in Mt 24:31. Heaven in this parable is a safe haven. This is confirmed by 1Pe 1:4 as that verse identifies our inheritance as being in Heaven.

The distinction of Heaven as the destination for the Rapture is an important eschatological point. Post-Trib eschatology often uses 1Th 3:13 to say that after the gathering to the clouds with the Rapture, the Elect, or more narrowly, the Church, then accompanies Christ to Armageddon where we win the world for the Lord. The Post-Trib argument uses a strict “last day” interpretation relegating the Day of the Lord to the last day of the one ‘seven.’ With the victory over the anti-Christ in one fell swoop, Post-Trib then divides the nations as per the Sheep/Goat Judgment of Mt 25:32-33; 46. Finally, Post-Trib adherents often have the Raptured Elect in their immortal bodies living on the earth following the division of the Wicked from the Righteous. The following parable is used in argument against the Pre-Wrath inclination of the Wheat and Tares.

Mt 13:47 "Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

By having an earthly separation and earthly occupation, Post-Trib adherents often mimic Post-Millennialists making the earth to be their eternal home. This condition would last throughout the Millennium in their eschatology.

However, counter to that presentation, the Bible never indicates an earthly place for newly saved souls with immortal and imperishable bodies. While the Bible says the Saints rule on the earth, it does not say they live on the earth to affect that rule. Indeed, at the end of the Millennium, the people, stirred up by the newly released demon, Satan, attack God’s “camp” at Jerusalem. This differs from a land, or living place.

Since an omission of a fact is not out of the question, merely not having a place on earth carved out for the Elect in the book of Revelation, or the final chapters of Ezekiel, does not mean one doesn’t exist. However again, the evidence in Revelation has the Great Multitude in the “barn” of Heaven – indeed, within the very Temple of God. In Eze 43:8, God says the earthly Temple has its doorposts next to the Father’s which is in Heaven. By means of this example, with the concept of doors opening between dimensions, God could easily translate those who rule from Heaven to Jerusalem to reign during the Millennium.

In this parable, like the four instances of the second Resurrection given before, both Righteous and Wicked are brought up from the depths simultaneously. As with the second Resurrection coming from beyond the grave, coming up from the depths of the ocean was understood in Biblical times as from Sheol. The analogy to the second Resurrection, which happens after the Millennium, is complete in this regard.

The paradox between which parable stands for the end-times of the one ‘seven’ can be answered by the four listings of two Resurrections: the first just for the Living, and the second for both the Living and the Dead. As this parable has both coming up for Judgment together, it is the second Resurrection at the end of the Millennium. Any attempt to use “age” to definitively specify the culmination of the one ‘seven’ confuses which “age” Jesus refers. As He gave two other one-two Resurrections in the Gospel this parable fits the pattern He established. Without a definitive description to which “age” Jesus is referring, an examination of the facts will determine the timing: not the mere mention of a span of time.

Both parables are true. However, they do not describe the same time. The parable of the Wheat and Tares, using some of the same words and themes for the Rapture conforms to the rule that the first Resurrection is only for the Living. The parable of the net, with its upwelling of both Living and Dead conforms to the second Resurrection emptying out both Paradise and Hades and having a dividing Judgment with separate outcomes.

 

[veteran]

This is silly. Guess what veteran: You're following the Post-Trib tradition of men too. You think you're unique? You think you're the first one to think like you do?

The time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church is after the tribulation per God's Word, so of course I'm heeding The Bible on that point for it is written. But those who teach His coming to gather His Church is prior to that tribulation, including prior to His wrath upon the wicked, those ideas are not in The Bible. So of course I'm not the first to declare this point, nor should I be since I'm following the Scripture as written. The eary Church had this understanding too.

Five Times the Bible Presents Two Resurrections

There are four instances where two resurrections are mentioned in the Bible and a fifth that can be found in Jesus’ parables. The order of sequence is always the same; first for only the “Living,” then for both “Living and Dead.” The Bible can jump from one Resurrection to another in one-two fashion without mentioning the intervening time, as three of the four do, because of the nature of “gaps” in the Bible. The Resurrections represent the bookends of the Millennium. Jesus can go from one to the other and thus span a thousand years without mentioning them. An omission of a fact is not a commission of an error.

We've already been through your five examples. I've already shown where you're adding men's doctrines into them instead of keeping to all the Biblical evidences of what the resurrection is, with what type of body it comes, and at what point for the end it is to occur. All you're trying to do now is find another 'way' to try and make it fit the doctrines of men you've chosen to heed instead.

“Living” is used as Jesus uses the term here:

Mt 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Here, Jesus is speaking of people who have died, yet calls them “living.” “Living,” being capitalized, then refers to the spiritually living component of the Righteous. Using this analogy of life, much the Gospel accounts say Jesus is the “Son of the living God,” the corollary would be the “Dead” being synonymous with the Wicked. Thus, word interplay remains between the words: “living” and “dead,” which the reader will have to discern in Scripture such as can be found in Jn 5:25.

Why did our Lord Jesus use the idea of the blind scribes and Pharisees being likened to graves that appear not, and men that walk over them are not aware of them? Why did He say they were like whited sepulchres with dead men's bones in them? Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that one must be born of The Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God?

It's because of the condition of one's soul and spirit inside their flesh. Jesus used those examples about men living in the flesh that hadn't died yet. But does that condition of having a dead soul being without Christ also exist for those who have died? That's a big YES! And that's the part you're failing to understand in regards to the Rev.20 timing and the Rev.20:5 "dead" (and most likely the "spirits in prison" Scripture also).

ONLY TWO STATES:

1. One without Christ - their spirit inside their flesh is spiritually 'dead' - applies to all those without Christ, whether still alive on earth today or having already died. Those who have died without Christ are the "dead" of Rev.20:5; it's about the fallen condition of their spirit with soul.

2. One in Christ Jesus having been born again by The Spirit - their spirit is in a 'living' condition prepared to continue to eternal life through Christ Jesus after their flesh death and remain in Him. These can never... die, not subject to the "second death" ("second death" = the casting of one's spirit with soul into the later "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign.)

That the subsequent second Resurrection has any who are spiritually alive at all is due to the Millennium period. Some will live righteous lives during this period of Christ’s rule on the Earth over the nations. Those righteous people living and dying after the Rapture and during the future thousand year period require a second Resurrection where they can join the Elect.

Ezekiel 44 reveals the Zadok (the Just) priests will have the duty to teach God's people ("My people" as written there) the difference between the clean and the unclean, the holy and the profane. That will not be done for the purpose of their perishing in the lake of fire. That will be done in order to bring them to The Father's Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ, even in that future time. Only the Zadok priests will be of the "first resurrection". And if one is not of that "first resurrection" reigning with Christ during His thousand years, then they are still subject to the "second death" and are in a LIABLE TO PERISH condition, a condition of standing under judgment to the later lake of fire. Thus they are the "dead" of that time but only in the spiritual death sense. That is why those spiritually dead do not 'live' again until the thousand years are over, that idea being about many of those dead turning to Christ during that thousand years and thus saved.

There's only two different dimensions of existence in God's Word, this earthly one and the heavenly one. Paul made a distinction about that with telling us about two different body types, "the image of the earthy" and "the image of the heavenly", a body of corruption vs. a body of incorruption. It has been assumed by many brethren that the change to a "spiritual body", i.e., from a body of corruption to a body of incorruption, is only for those in Christ Jesus.

Since Paul was speaking to Christian brethren in the 1 Cor.15 chapter about that, he did not go into detail of what happens to the unjust on that "last trump" event. Yet he did... cover it indirectly when he said we ALL shall be changed, and then made a distinction in the Greek of 1 Cor.15:53-54 between the change from a body of corruption to incorruption, AND "this mortal" must "put on immortality", which is a second required change to have Eternal Life through Christ Jesus. Moreover, since Paul was pulling that 'death swallowed up in victory' passage directly from the Isaiah 25 chapter, it's simple to know that he was covering that Isaiah 25 event which DOES give more detail about that first part change also happening to the 'unjust' on that day also.

When our Lord Jesus comes with the "day of the Lord" events, all of man's works upon this earth are going to be consumed by God's consuming fire, which is what Peter was talking about in 2 Pet.3:10. That event will usher in the heavenly age of Christ's Milennium upon this earth. At that point all alive on earth will be changed to a body of incorruption, the wicked also. That is the resurrection body, a "spiritual body", not one of flesh. But their "this mortal" part will still be dead, spiritually dead, just LIKE those scribes and Pharisees our Lord Jesus pointed to with what was inside them being dead like a grave or tomb.

So in essence, all born in the flesh in this world have a spirit inside them that is spiritually dead until they come to The Father and believe on His Son Jesus Christ with their 'spirit' being born again, i.e., the "new creature" idea Paul taught. For those who do not come to Christ Jesus and believe on Him, their spirit REMAINS in a liable to die state, even after... Christ's coming and thousand years reign IF... they still refuse Him all the way to the end when God's great white throne judgment happens. What many misunderstand is that their liable to die condition is with their 'resurrection' state they will live in during Christ's thousand years. They will be alive in spiritual body, but still liable to die with their soul state, not yet perished. This reveals our Heavenly Father is indeed like Peter said; He is long-suffering, not willing for anyone to perish, but for all to come to repentance (2 Pet.3:9).

The gap from one resurrection to the other returns this commentary to the tools of interpretation. The Bible allows for this transition because both are essentially the same, bracketing the Millennium and being bridged by the Rule of Christ. Their origin is from a speaker knowledgeable in God’s plan: Jesus. In Daniel, He is the Man in Linen, in the Gospels, Jesus speaks in the first person and in Revelation; He reveals it to John.

First Resurrection Just the Living
Second Resurrection Living and Dead

Daniel 12:1
But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered
Dan 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
________________________

Dan 12:1-2
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(KJV)

Anyone can do a 'selective' reading of Scripture like you're trying to do. Notice that "every one that shall be found written in the book" is part of the "and at that time thy people shall be delivered."

Well, when are those books opened per Rev.20? At the end AFTER Christ's thousand years reign. Let's see, is that after Christ's second coming and end of the tribulation? Yes. So that Daniel passage has some major... timeline jumps in it that must be heeded.

The next Dan.12:2 verse is a direct parallel to the event of John 5:28-29 when Christ comes. At the sound of His voice with the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation happening at the same time. The spiritually dead will be raised too at Christ's coming, but they will still be in a liable to perish condition all throughout Christ's thousand years reign.

Mt 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Mt 25:32-33; 46
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
…Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The event of Christ's coming per Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 covers the gathering of His faithful Church from both Heaven and from the earth, i.e., His elect that reign with Him for the thousand years.

The event of Matt.25 with the separation of the goats from the sheep is simply the same events as the separation shown in Rev.22:14-15 and Ezekiel 44, and Zech.14:16-19, and Rev.20:8-9 about the nations, and Matt.8:12, and Matt.22:13, which goes with Matt.25:30.

_________________________

John 5:25
I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Why do you keep placing the John 5:25 verse on top of the John 5:28-29 Scripture as if they are the same event? They are not the same event, not even the same timing. Obviously, you don't believe our Lord Jesus during His resurrection went to preach The Gospel to the "spirits in prison" like Peter said (1 Pet.3 & 4).

_________________________

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:1; 4
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads… They follow the Lamb wherever he goes.

Like I've said before, the "great multitude" of Rev.7 represent saved Gentile believers, and they are standing near Christ during His Milennium, because of the events given with that happen during Christ's Milennium reign, which is also the SAME timing of those in Rev.14:4 (Israelites) and Rev.15:2-3 (Gentiles).

You should have included this one too, for it's the same timing as those...

Rev 5:8-10
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(KJV)

That's the same "new song" they will sing per Rev.14:3 and the "song of Moses" and "the song of the Lamb" per Rev.15:3.

Revelation 20:4-5
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

It's the way you're looking at the Rev.20:5 verse. Your belief on the false 'dead in the ground' doctrine of men is what is causing you to misinterpret the meaning of those "dead" there in Rev.20:5. By that time of Rev.20, the ONLY death remaining is the "second death", which is the casting of one's spirit with soul into the "lake of fire" at the end of the thousand years. Per Isaiah 25, the covering cast over all nations will be removed for Christ's Milennium reign. It's the spiritually "dead" that His elect reign over.

An example???

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

You can't get anymore spiritually dead than those of the "synagogue of Satan" that follow the devil, except maybe the devil himself and his angels that perish with him.

So how is it there, that Christ is going to make those come to WORSHIP at the feet of His elect? and just WHEN will that occur?

It's in Ezekiel 44 for one, and here it is also...

Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
(KJV)

From "year to year" definitely is not about some resurrection of the dead at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign! It instead shows their having been resurrected at Christ's coming at the start of the thousand years. (See also Scripture like Isaiah 49:23 and Isaiah 60:14.)

The rest of your post is like some seminarian philosopher's final paper written in order to pass THEIR leaven doctrines, about as simple as mud.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, Your words: "Rev 5:8-10
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (KJV)

This is one of the times the KJV translation gets it wrong. The majority of translations put it the way the NIV does which brings a completely different meaning. Rev. 5:8-10 - "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song:

“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

This is the song of the 24 elders, NOT the redeemed!

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet, Your words: "Rev 5:8-10
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (KJV)

This is one of the times the KJV translation gets it wrong. The majority of translations put it the way the NIV does which brings a completely different meaning. Rev. 5:8-10 - "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song:

“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

This is the song of the 24 elders, NOT the redeemed!

You're joking with that NIV supposition, right? Both the KJV and NIV actually read closely on that event.

The 'new song' is about Christ's Triumph.

Rev 5:9-14
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."


Compare the later version...

Rev 15:3-4
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvellous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? for Thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest."
(KJV)

That song of the Lamb is about His Triumph also.


Back to the Rev.5 chapter...

Rev.5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb That was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him That sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."
14 And the four beasts said, "Amen." And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped Him That liveth for ever and ever.
(KJV)

That above is also Millennium timing and forward.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, My comments were based on these words: "That's the same "new song" they will sing per Rev.14:3 and the "song of Moses" and "the song of the Lamb" per Rev.15:3." and your presumption that they are the same timing.

Rev. 5:9-10 is sung by the 24 elders just prior to the opening of the seals.
Rev. 5:11-14 is verbal praise of angels and elders at the same time. Most would believe this is prior to the 70th week.
Rev. 15:3-4 is sung by the redeemed after the rapture but before the vial judgments.

There is another song recorded in Rev. 14:3 but it is only known by the 144,000 and it is looking forward to Christ's advent after Armageddon.

They are all different songs occurring at different times. We have hundreds of gospels songs that use many of the same words but they aren't classified as the "same song"! Neither are any of these. Truth will be easier to identify when one stops clumping all these unrelated events into one big ball of confusion.

 

[teleiosis]

The time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church is after the tribulation per God's Word, so of course I'm heeding The Bible on that point for it is written. But those who teach His coming to gather His Church is prior to that tribulation, including prior to His wrath upon the wicked, those ideas are not in The Bible. So of course I'm not the first to declare this point, nor should I be since I'm following the Scripture as written. The eary Church had this understanding too.

This is a lie. There's no nice way of putting it. You're lying veteran.

Pre-Wrath is the historical position of the early Church.
Pre-Wrath has nothing to do with Darby.

Paul taught that we are saved from the coming Wrath of God in 1Th 1:10.
Jesus taught us the example of Noah and Lot who were both saved before God's Wrath literally came raining down on the wicked.

Now the woman Israel will be sheltered through the second half of the one 'seven,' but not so for her offspring - those who worship Christ - Rev 12:17.

We go through the Great Tribulation which Jesus said was cut short by the arrival of the Day of the Lord.

The Great Multitude are saved after the initiation of the Day of the Lord in the broad overview of the end-times in Revelation chapters 4-11 - and they are saved OUT OF the Great Tribulation, and like the example of Noah and Lot, they are saved before the Trumpets of Wrath are sounded.

You have to pervert the Bible and run the Trumpets and Bowls before the Scroll can be even opened with the breaking of its seven Seals.

Likewise in the major detailed parallel account to the broad overview of the end-times, the detailed account of just the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 - the Harvest happens BEFORE the Wrath of God. The special dispensation afforded the woman Israel which protects her is evidenced in Rev 16:15. There is no Rapture there, just the shuttling of God's chosen people: the Jews.

So you don't follow Scripture as much as you pick and chose and snatch a verse here or one there and put it together and call it mother. It's your man-made doctrine, just as each of us has fashioned their own view. The errors you would want to teach are terrible. You cannot survive three and a half years of not being able to buy or sell all the while we are being hunted to worship the beast. Your "last-day" Post-Trib eschatology does not comport to the Bible and I reject it and your lies.