ALL TIMELINES NEED TO BE REVISED

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Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
The Old Testament puts most things about man's existence past Christ's coming in fleshy terms. It's because it wasn't yet time to reveal the depth of info about the resurrection that the New Testament reveals.
Actually, I believe that the New Testament was never meant to be understood in other-than-fleshy terms! (BTW, do you purposely leave out the "l" from the term "fleshly" to make "fleshy?" "Fleshly" and "fleshy" are not the same in English; they don't have the same definition nor do they have the same connotation. Just wondering if it was a typo or done on purpose for some alterior motive.)

veteran said:
You forget that angels are able to live upon the earth and eat man's food. See Gen.18-19.
Sorry but that is based on one's assumptions of the Hebrew term "mal'akh" and its Greek counterpart "aggelos," both of which have as their fundamental definition "messenger." Therefore, one must be careful in how one is to understand these words because sometimes they are used of supernatural messengers but sometimes they are used of human messengers. Only the context fully understood can determine which it is to be in a particular passage of Scripture. Furthermore, if one is a "human messenger," we commonly know that person to be a prophet of God, for prophets or seers were typically God's messengers to His people. The study of angels, angelology, is not an exact science.
 

veteran

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.


Actually, I believe that the New Testament was never meant to be understood in other-than-fleshy terms! (BTW, do you purposely leave out the "l" from the term "fleshly" to make "fleshy?" "Fleshly" and "fleshy" are not the same in English; they don't have the same definition nor do they have the same connotation. Just wondering if it was a typo or done on purpose for some alterior motive.)
You're free to believe whatever you want. But you'll never be able to reverse what Apostle Paul taught about the concept of the "spiritual body" and "image of the heavenly", which is not about flesh bodies. Nor can you reverse what he said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You can keep believing on the pagan's concept of a flesh salvation, but that's not what God's promises of eternal Life through His Son is about. That's where that fleshy salvation concept crept in from, from ancient paganism. That's why those are so busy today trying to create immortality of the flesh today. It ain't gonna' happen.
 

Trekson

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Hi Vet, I think you're mixing up your concepts. Your words:"Nor can you reverse what he said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

The kingdom of God as mentioned here is not the physical, millennial kingdom. This is a spiritual kingdom that we all enter upon salvation, looking forward to when this mortal shall put on immortality and this corruptible body put on an incorruptible body. That's what the whole concept of being "born again" is all about. We "inherit" the kingdom upon salvation because we become joint heirs with Christ. When Christ becomes King of Kings and Lord of Lords at His return, He will rule over an "earthly" kingdom, not a spiritual one. Those flesh beings who are living in the millennial era are not members of the kingdom of God, they are simply residents of Christ's earthly kingdom. The physical manisfestation of the "kingdom of God" won't occur until the NJ comes down at the end of the millennium.
 

veteran

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Trekson said:
Hi Vet, I think you're mixing up your concepts. Your words:"Nor can you reverse what he said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

The kingdom of God as mentioned here is not the physical, millennial kingdom. This is a spiritual kingdom that we all enter upon salvation, looking forward to when this mortal shall put on immortality and this corruptible body put on an incorruptible body. That's what the whole concept of being "born again" is all about. We "inherit" the kingdom upon salvation because we become joint heirs with Christ. When Christ becomes King of Kings and Lord of Lords at His return, He will rule over an "earthly" kingdom, not a spiritual one. Those flesh beings who are living in the millennial era are not members of the kingdom of God, they are simply residents of Christ's earthly kingdom. The physical manisfestation of the "kingdom of God" won't occur until the NJ comes down at the end of the millennium.
On the last day of this present world, when Christ returns on the "day of the Lord", that is the event Paul taught when we ALL shall be changed (1 Cor.15:50 forward). He was pulling that idea from Scripture like Isaiah 25.


Isa 25:2-9
2 For Thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.
3 Therefore shall the strong people glorify Thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear Thee.


Has that happened on earth yet today? No, for God has yet to do that, and the wicked on earth still do not yet fear Him.


4 For Thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.


When will the branch of the terrible ones be brought low on this earth? At Christ's second coming, and not before. That's when all knees will bow to Him, i.e., during His future Milennium reign.


6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

In what "mountain" is that to occur? In Jerusalem, on earth. That event is what our Lord Jesus was talking about here with sitting down and supping with Him after His return. There's going to be a great wedding feast then...

Luke 12:36-37
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when He cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that He shall gird Himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
(KJV)


That sets the timing of this event for Christ's return and the Milennium.

Isa.25:7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

What's that "face of the covering cast over all people" about? And that "vail that is spread over all nations"? It is associated with the idea of death being swallowed up in victory in the next verse...


Isa.25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Apostle Paul directly quoted that idea of death being swallowed up in victory per the 1 Cor.15 concerning the change that's to happen at the twinkling of an eye on the "last trump". All nations and all peoples are included in that event, not just those of Christ's Church.


Isa.25:9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
(KJV)


Who will be saying that, that they have waited for Him? Only those who refuse to bow to the coming false messiah. All others will bow to the false one instead of... waiting for Christ's return. That's the idea these who wait for Christ's return will be saying.

Is that declaration that they have waited for Christ's return, and This is The LORD about a time AFTER He has already returned? In other words, their wait is UNTIL His coming, not thereafter. It's why that verse also reveals what timing this death swallowed up in victory timing is for, i.e., the day of Christ's return with the "day of the Lord" events.
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
The Old Testament puts most things about man's existence past Christ's coming in fleshy terms. It's because it wasn't yet time to reveal the depth of info about the resurrection that the New Testament reveals.
Actually, it's because the Messiah's coming will BE in the flesh! Only in the wild imaginations of how a person wants to interpret the NT is it otherwise! Let the Scriptures speak the simple truth:

Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV


veteran said:
You forget that angels are able to live upon the earth and eat man's food. See Gen.18-19.
Well, as I said, you forget that "angels" simply means "messengers" and sometimes they are supernatural messengers and sometimes they are HUMAN messengers! Human messengers DEFINITELY "live upon the earth and eat man's food!"

veteran said:
Yes the John 5:28-29 Scripture is... talking about the resurrection. One has to leave common sense to say it doesn't. And when did Apostle Paul show when the resurrection will occur? At the "last trump" per 1 Cor.15; at Christ's coming per 1 Thess.4.
That wasn't my point. My point was that it is not talking about the resurrection AT CHRIST'S COMING (or at least NOT ONLY at Christ's coming)! It's not one resurrection; it's TWO, one before the Millennial beginning of the Messiah's reign and one after the Millenial beginning of the Messiah's reign! The one before the Millennium will be at His coming; however, the one after the Millennium will be at the Great White Throne Judgment.

veteran said:
Yes, Jesus is... talking about BOTH 'types' of resurrection happening at the SAME time, at the sound of His voice, at a certain "hour". What "hour"? The hour of His second coming. That's how the angels of Matt.25 will do the separating between His sheep and the goats when He comes. The dwelling of the goats is what the "outer darkness" idea is about, which is further shown in Rev.22:14-15 as a separation between those outside the holy city, and those of His inside it, on earth.
Heavens, NO! The "angels separating the tares from the wheat" occurs AFTER the Millennium; the separation of the sheep nations from the goat nations will occur AT THE BEGINNING of the Millennium! And, the two are NOT the same!

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (age); and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

The timing here is explained in Paul's words in his first letter to the congregation at Korinth:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV


Therefore, the purpose of the Millennium is to put all of the Messiah's enemies under His feet. Then, at the END of the Millennium - the first 1000 years of the Messiah's reign - having put all of His enemies under His feet and destroying death as His last enemy, He will then turn the Empire over to His Father, that "God may be all in all!"

That's not the same as Matthew 25, which is clearly at the BEGINNING of His reign, at the BEGINNING of the Millennium!

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
KJV


The sheep nations are nations that can inherit the Kingdom! The goat nations are destined to be in punishment that lasts forever. However, there's no angels "throwing" anyone at this point in time! They are merely destined to "go away into everlasting punishment!" At no time in this passage in Matthew 25 is it said that the angels do any separating or that the goats are actually consigned at that time to the everlasting punishment!

This is a WAR TRIBUNAL occurring before the Messiah's throne in Isra'el in the valley of Y'howshafat (Jehoshaphat) outside of Yerushalayim after the battle at Har-Megiddown (Armageddon) or Tel-Megiddo, located at 32.584622 degrees North, 35.1834944 degrees East on the globe. (Google Earth will take you right there.) The valley of Y'howshafat is not big enough to accomodate everyone in the whole world, but it is large enough to accomodate the LEADERS of the nations who were involved in that battle.

veteran said:
Yes, the context of John 5 also includes the idea of Christ as Judge at His coming. It also includes the concept of the resurrection too.

John 5:21
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.
(KJV)

Or did you forget that point? And in these verses...

John 5:24-27
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;

Those in Christ Jesus will be of the "resurrection of life", having passed from death to life. Thus they will not be of the "resurrection of damnation", which is that same idea of "condemnation". That "hour" there happened at Christ's Resurrection, when He went to the "spirits in prison" and preached The Gospel to them, and led those who believed out of the prison house in the heavenly. That was also what those who came out of their graves in Jerusalem at the time of His death on the cross was about. They went into Jerusalem and appeared to many to show this event.
Again, sorry for the confusion. I didn't mean that John 5 was not about the resurrection. It's just that both resurrections are not at the Messiah's coming! One is prior to the Millennium (the resurrection of the just or justified); the other is AFTER the Millennium (the general resurrection which includes the resurrection of the condemned).

veteran said:
27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.
(KJV)

That verse is specifically about Christ given the power of Judgment by The Father. Notice the distinction between the concept of the resurrection and that.
Yes, but His judgment is THROUGHOUT the Millennium, not just at the beginning and especially not just at the end! Judgment doesn't happen just at the resurrections!

veteran said:
Why are you always making things up?

You reveal the same stiff-neck ways of old Israel that rebelled against God's Truth long ago. Your false claims against me regarding that Psalms Scripture have nothing to do with the subject I've been covering about the resurrection in John 5.
Excuse me?! That is PRECISELY what Psalm 2 is talking about! Psalm 2 is about the Millennial stage of the Messiah's reign from Yerushalayim, Isra'el! The point is that these "kings of the earth," "rulers" and "judges of the earth" to whom YHWH is talking in verses 6 through 12 are not among the justified! And yet, here they are on the earth (in their physical bodies) when the Messiah is reigning! Remember: He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet!

A personal attack? Nah. I was only trying to remind you that there will still be evil in the world during the Millennium; it's not a "done deal" after the Messiah returns. That's the reason why the "sheep/goats" separation at the beginning of the Millennium is NOT about the final judgment, which occurs AFTER the Millennium at the Great White Throne. That's all I was saying. "Stiff-neck ways" indeed. Hmmph!
 

veteran

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Retrobyter said:
Shabbat shalom, veteran.


Actually, it's because the Messiah's coming will BE in the flesh! Only in the wild imaginations of how a person wants to interpret the NT is it otherwise! Let the Scriptures speak the simple truth:

Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV



Well, as I said, you forget that "angels" simply means "messengers" and sometimes they are supernatural messengers and sometimes they are HUMAN messengers! Human messengers DEFINITELY "live upon the earth and eat man's food!"
Sorry, you're simply deluded about the pagan idea of a flesh salvation. It is not going to happen that way, which is why Paul declared that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Christ's flesh body was transfigured to the resurrection state, even to keep the marks of His crucifixion. That doesn't mean our flesh bodies will continue to exist as bodies of "incorruption". You can deny Paul's declaration of what TYPE of body the resurrection is if you want, which he declared is a "spiritual body" and "image of the heavenly", but that won't make it a flesh body.

You've obviously been raised to think of Christ's Savlation as a flesh salvation, when those ideas originate from the pagan Canaanites that crept in among the Jews. That idea is from them. That's why their pagan religious systems of mysticism is about seeking perfection of... the flesh. That will never happen. We put off these flesh bodies at Christ's coming, and our "spiritual body" is then revealed as "the image of the heavenly".


Retrobyter said:
That wasn't my point. My point was that it is not talking about the resurrection AT CHRIST'S COMING (or at least NOT ONLY at Christ's coming)! It's not one resurrection; it's TWO, one before the Millennial beginning of the Messiah's reign and one after the Millenial beginning of the Messiah's reign! The one before the Millennium will be at His coming; however, the one after the Millennium will be at the Great White Throne Judgment.
Well, it was my point, and it is one of the main points of those John 5 Scriptures also. Sorry you're not comfortable with me reminding you of that. You simply cannot pull out one idea out of that Scripture at the expense of destroying the other concept of the resurrection that's included with it. The inferred second resurrection of Rev.20 is not what the John 5:28-29 Scripture is about. The inferred second resurreciton of Rev.20 is another one unto Eternal Life like the "first" one to occur at God's great white throne judgment in final. The "dead" who appear before God's throne will have already been resurrection at the time of John 5:28-29 like Christ revealed there, which is what the "resurrection of damnation" is about. That's why it's said in Rev.20:5 that the "dead" living not again UNTIL...after the thousand years. It's not about all the 'dead', it's about some in the "resurrection of damnation" coming to Christ DURING the thousand years, and being saved at the end of it.

The "dead" of Rev.20:5 = the "resurrection of damnation" that occurs when Christ comes per John 5:28-29.


Retrobyter said:
Heavens, NO! The "angels separating the tares from the wheat" occurs AFTER the Millennium; the separation of the sheep nations from the goat nations will occur AT THE BEGINNING of the Millennium! And, the two are NOT the same!

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (age); and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV
You cannot use the 'tares' parable as an accurate example of the Rev.20 Milennium events, simply because there is NO thousand years Milennium period even mentioned within it. Our Lord Jesus gave that parable based on agricultural terms. At harvest time with real wheat, you always separate the tares from the wheat and then throw the tares in the fire. If that followed the actual order of events for the end then the "thousand years" relgn of Christ per Rev.20 should be mentioned with that, but Christ did not bring that up there. Doesn't mean there is not a thousand years period before the tares destruction in the "lake of fire". One must use common sense in relation to all of God's Word, not just create a doctrine out of a small section of His Word, which is what you're trying to do.


Retrobyter said:
The timing here is explained in Paul's words in his first letter to the congregation at Korinth:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV


Therefore, the purpose of the Millennium is to put all of the Messiah's enemies under His feet. Then, at the END of the Millennium - the first 1000 years of the Messiah's reign - having put all of His enemies under His feet and destroying death as His last enemy, He will then turn the Empire over to His Father, that "God may be all in all!"
Verses 24-25 is a hint of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. All those nations and peoples which Satan will gather at the end of that thousand years come from where? They're already there during Christ's reign, bowing the knee to Him next to His elect. Ezekiel 44 calls those the "dead", but they are not literally dead, they are spiritually dead, in a state of damnation still subject to the "second death". To be subject to the "second death" means being cast into the "lake of fire" at the end of the thousand years.

Even Isaiah 14:9-10 reveals that those who served Satan will during that time say to him, "Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?" How will they be saying that if they are 'literally' "dead" in the ground? When the "resurrection of damnation" happens, will they be given new flesh bodies? No, of course not, for that would be the theory of reincarnation, being born into another flesh body, which is a doctrine of paganism.


Retrobyter said:
That's not the same as Matthew 25, which is clearly at the BEGINNING of His reign, at the BEGINNING of the Millennium!

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
KJV


The sheep nations are nations that can inherit the Kingdom! The goat nations are destined to be in punishment that lasts forever. However, there's no angels "throwing" anyone at this point in time! They are merely destined to "go away into everlasting punishment!" At no time in this passage in Matthew 25 is it said that the angels do any separating or that the goats are actually consigned at that time to the everlasting punishment!
At Christ's coming is when He sends the angels to do that separating between His sheep and the goats. Remember the "outer darkness" separation. It is linked to the timing of Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

Christ's sheep per the NT has always... been a symbol for His Church.


Retrobyter said:
This is a WAR TRIBUNAL occurring before the Messiah's throne in Isra'el in the valley of Y'howshafat (Jehoshaphat) outside of Yerushalayim after the battle at Har-Megiddown (Armageddon) or Tel-Megiddo, located at 32.584622 degrees North, 35.1834944 degrees East on the globe. (Google Earth will take you right there.) The valley of Y'howshafat is not big enough to accomodate everyone in the whole world, but it is large enough to accomodate the LEADERS of the nations who were involved in that battle.
That's a fleshy interpretation of the Armageddon event. Per the end of Hebrews 12 and Scripture like 2 Peter 3:10, man's works are burned off the surface of the earth on that day of Christ's coming by God's consuming fire, i.e., the "day of the Lord". Try your pointing to that little area only and one can easily see how God's consuming fire ending this present world is going to be world-wide, affecting ALL peoples on earth. Yet the destruction of the Gog-Magog army out of the northern quarters will be what the Megiddo event will be about, and it will be a specific type of destruction upon the wicked, but not only in the middleast.


Retrobyter said:
Again, sorry for the confusion. I didn't mean that John 5 was not about the resurrection. It's just that both resurrections are not at the Messiah's coming! One is prior to the Millennium (the resurrection of the just or justified); the other is AFTER the Millennium (the general resurrection which includes the resurrection of the condemned).
You're still wrong. When Christ said at the hour of the sound of His voice ALL that are in the graves shall come forth... and be of either one resurrection type or the other, THAT is about the day of His coming and ALL of them being resurrected at that same "hour". Moving the "resurrection of damnation" to another time other than that is a false idea. You're doing that because of holding to man's tradition that the "dead" of Rev.20:5 aren't resurrected until after the thousand years.


Retrobyter said:
Yes, but His judgment is THROUGHOUT the Millennium, not just at the beginning and especially not just at the end! Judgment doesn't happen just at the resurrections!
There is more than one period of His judgment, the difference being the type of judgments. The gathering of His elect that will reign with Him during the thousand years is a type of judgment. Those of the "resurrection of damnation" will stand in judgment throughout the whole thousand years, which is what the Ezekiel 44 Scripture reveals. So that's another type of His judgment. And then when Satan is loosed to deceive the nations again at the end of the thousand years, and God's fire destroys those that follow Satan, that is yet another type of His judgment upon those. And then in final with God's great white throne judgment, the rest of the dead are judged and those of them not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, that is a final judgment.

But what about those of the dead that do NOT follow Satan after the thousand years to go up against the camp of the saints on earth? What of those of them that turn to Christ Jesus during His thousand years reign and believe on Him? That's the part you haven't considered regarding the Rev.20 chapter, because you've simply fallen into the trap of men's doctrines that treat all those 'dead' as being still in graves until the great white throne judgment.

Ezek 44:23-26
23 And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.
25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
(KJV)


That's about the Zadok (the Just) which serve as elect priests to Christ Jesus in that future time (i.e., the 144,000 and great multitude of Rev.7). Notice how those Zadok will be allowed to approach the "dead" that was one of their relatives during today's time. They aren't literally 'dead', they are spiritually dead, and their place is outside the holy city in a place of separation, just like... the kind of example our Lord Jesus gave in Luke 16 with the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Per Rev.22:14-15 in that future Milennium time, outside the gates of the holy city will be the area called the "outer darkness" where the unjust will be. That's... where the "dead" of Rev.20:5 will be, not in graves either. Those are the "resurrection of damnation" raised at the same time as those of the "resurrection of life" per the John 5:28-29 verses. It is a spiritual body existence, not a flesh body existence like today's. It's their souls that will still be in a 'dead' liable to perish state while in a resurrection body.


Retrobyter said:
Excuse me?! That is PRECISELY what Psalm 2 is talking about! Psalm 2 is about the Millennial stage of the Messiah's reign from Yerushalayim, Isra'el! The point is that these "kings of the earth," "rulers" and "judges of the earth" to whom YHWH is talking in verses 6 through 12 are not among the justified! And yet, here they are on the earth (in their physical bodies) when the Messiah is reigning! Remember: He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet!
You're simply adding... the idea that they are still in their flesh bodies. It's because of what you've been taught, in your mind, the only way anyone could exist during Christ's future thousand years reign is by being alive in a flesh body! That's sad, because that kind of idea actually denies the whole point of the idea of resurrection and the "spiritual body" concept that Paul taught. Per your fleshy mind, the ONLY type existence is one in the flesh! Strange how Christ never needed a flesh body before He was born through Mary's womb!

And per your twisted views about the idea of angels always meaning flesh messengers, then the Archangel Michael, Gabriel, etc., must ALSO be in flesh bodies per your view! That kind of thinking is outside God's Word, which is why its origin is from paganism and Satan's host. Maybe even Satan has a flesh body per view???
 

Trekson

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Hi Vet, Your words: "Apostle Paul directly quoted that idea of death being swallowed up in victory per the 1 Cor.15 concerning the change that's to happen at the twinkling of an eye on the "last trump". All nations and all peoples are included in that event, not just those of Christ's Church."

All I can say is your interpretation of these verses is just plain wrong! All nations and peoples are NOT included! Just the righteous remnant and believers. We won't be subject to the "second" death but unbelievers will be. How can you not understand that? You'll never come to know the truth as long as you stubbornly hold onto this false notion that everything happens in one literal 24 hr. day. It's not in scripture, you've been shown the word "day" means an "age". Being the king of denial, isn't a good thing.
 

ENOCH2010

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I don't know what kind of body we will receive when the Lord comes back, but I do know it will be like his after his resurrection.
 

dragonfly

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Hi veteran,


I'm not following any of the threads on CyB closely right now, as 3D is in the ascendancy right now, but you made a statement in your last post which I'd be grateful to see more supporting scripture.

That's why it's said in Rev.20:5 that the "dead" living not again UNTIL...after the thousand years. It's not about all the 'dead', it's about some in the "resurrection of damnation" coming to Christ DURING the thousand years, and being saved at the end of it.

Which judgment happens after 'it is appointed ... once to die', and why would the resurrection to damnation be reversible? Surely everyone from the generations up to Noah onwards, is aware that God kept His promise to send one who would bruise the serpent's head?
 

veteran

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Trekson said:
Hi Vet, Your words: "Apostle Paul directly quoted that idea of death being swallowed up in victory per the 1 Cor.15 concerning the change that's to happen at the twinkling of an eye on the "last trump". All nations and all peoples are included in that event, not just those of Christ's Church."

All I can say is your interpretation of these verses is just plain wrong! All nations and peoples are NOT included! Just the righteous remnant and believers. We won't be subject to the "second" death but unbelievers will be. How can you not understand that? You'll never come to know the truth as long as you stubbornly hold onto this false notion that everything happens in one literal 24 hr. day. It's not in scripture, you've been shown the word "day" means an "age". Being the king of denial, isn't a good thing.
The idea that Apostle Paul was speaking ONLY of those in Christ in the 1 Cor.15 chapter is a tradition of men.

That's why they totally miss what Paul declared about TWO type changes required to have eternal life through Christ Jesus, per the 1 Cor.15:52-54 Scripture.

The first change is from a body of "corruption" to a body of "incorruption", and the second change is the "this mortal" putting on "immortality". The first part is about the change of our flesh bodies to the spiritual body. The second part is about the change of our spirit with soul that is liable to perish to the immortality state through Christ Jesus (i.e. being "born again" of The Spirit).

This is why ALL... alive on earth at Christ's coming will put on a body of "incorruption". But not all will have their "this mortal" part putting on "immortality" through Christ Jesus. Paul used 4 separate Greek words in the 1 Cor.15:53 verse which each have a separate meaning per the Greek.


1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(KJV)


"corruptible" = Greek phthartos - decayed, perishable (Strong's 5349)
"incorruption" = Greek aphthrsia - incorruptibility (Strong's 861)

AND...

"mortal" = Greek thnetos - liable to die (Strong's 2349)
"Immortality" = Greek athanasia - deathlessness (Strong's 110)


What is it that all those NOT of the "first resurrection" will still be subject to?

The "second death" (per Rev.20).

It's that still 'liable to die' at the "second death" state of the "this mortal" part that those without Christ will be in throughout His Milennium reign.

The problem with man's carnal thinking is that when they hear words like 'mortal', they automatically think that means a flesh body that's subject dying. They can't fathom that Rev.20 is about a time after God's consuming fire has wiped man's works off this earth at Christ's coming, with our being 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" like Paul said. So one cannot simply apply that "mortal" (thnetos) idea to the flesh, but to the body of "incorruption" the "resurrection of damnation" will have throughout Christ's Milennium reign.

Thus being changed to a body of "incorruption" does NOT... mean automatic Salvation through our Lord Jesus. It ONLY means the flesh body of "corruption" being changed to a body of "incorruption" which NO man can kill or destroy.

For those in Christ Jesus, who remain faithful waiting on His return, BOTH changes will occur on that day, both the change to a body of "incorruption" and the "this mortal" part putting on "immortality". That is the difference between the "resurrection of life", and the "resurrection of damnation" our Lord Jesus declared in the John 5:28-29 Scripture.
 

Trekson

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There is no reason for the unsaved to have any kind of body at all. We are all eternal souls to begin with. There will be no unsaved with either immortal or incorruptible bodies. They'll be spending most of that time in hell or some form of it until the second death. When the millennium begins the only mortals allowed in will be those who survive the sheep and goat judgment and the righteous remnant of Israel. It will take two or three centuries, imo, for the novelty of perfection to wear off and men begin to think of following Christ as being burdensome.
 

veteran

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Trekson said:
There is no reason for the unsaved to have any kind of body at all. We are all eternal souls to begin with. There will be no unsaved with either immortal or incorruptible bodies. They'll be spending most of that time in hell or some form of it until the second death. When the millennium begins the only mortals allowed in will be those who survive the sheep and goat judgment and the righteous remnant of Israel. It will take two or three centuries, imo, for the novelty of perfection to wear off and men begin to think of following Christ as being burdensome.
Where do you think this separation will be?

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)


Christ foretold of a place of separation for the future He called the "outer darkness" (Matt.8:12; Matt.22:13; Matt.25:30).

That is what that separation of His sheep from the goats is about. We don't have to wonder who all that will be, for Christ defined who that will be, right there in Rev.22:15. It is indeed revealing a type of 'hell' abode on earth as that future place of separation He called the "outer darkness".

Here's something our Lord Jesus revealed further about that "outer darkness", which helps reveal that place will simply be right outside the gates of the holy city on earth in that future time...

Matt 22:11-14
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, "Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?" And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
(KJV)
 

tgwprophet

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At one time I met Jesus and the surrounding feeling (presence) was so great that being outside it, to me feels almost like bieng in that outer darkness. I feel that today, we live in a small percentage of that presence and to be outside even that small presence of love would be the outer darkness and without this presence our souls would feel cold - very noticeably. If this was understood by all, no one would follow any other God. So, we feel this presence yet most do not recognize it.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

I'll work on all that you wrote to answer each point for you, but before that, I would only ask you to consider this passage of Scripture:

John 11:1-53
1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
4 When Jesus heard that, he said,
This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
7 Then after that saith he to his disciples,
Let us go into Judaea again.
8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
9 Jesus answered
, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly,
Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.

17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.
18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her,
Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her,
I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.
29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.
30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.
31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.
32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
34 And said
, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?


38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
39 Jesus said
, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
40 Jesus saith unto her,
Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
KJV


Was that a literal, fleshly resurrection that Yeshua` performed or not? If He literally resurrected `Elezar (Lazarus) at this time, what makes you think that the future resurrections won't also be literal and fleshly?
 

veteran

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.

I'll work on all that you wrote to answer each point for you, but before that, I would only ask you to consider this passage of Scripture:


Was that a literal, fleshly resurrection that Yeshua` performed or not? If He literally resurrected `Elezar (Lazarus) at this time, what makes you think that the future resurrections won't also be literal and fleshly?
Firstly, we easily know those miracles our Lord Jesus did like that were NOT... the resurrection to occur at His coming. The Jews had a curious belief about a number of days having to pass to confirm one had really died, and that's part of what that is about with Christ doing a waiting period.

Note that in all those cases in Scripture where our Lord Jesus or His Apostles raised people from the dead, their flesh bodies were NOT yet decomposed.

Yet in 2 Corinthians 5 Apostle Paul was clear that if one's flesh body is dissolved, then we have 'another' building from God, not made with hands (i.e., not fleshy), but eternal in the heavens.

2 Cor 5:1-4
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


What kind... of body would that be then, that is "an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens"? A flesh body? No. It's the "image of the heavenly" that Paul taught of in 1 Cor.15 where he said as we all have borne the "image of the earthy", we shall also bear the "image of the heavenly."

So just what is... that "image of the heavenly" he was talking about in 1 Cor.15:49? A "spiritual body" that he contrasted to the "natural body" (flesh). It is a type body like the angels of God in heaven, for that is what Christ also revealed (Matt.22:30).

Clearly then, Christ raising Lazarus' flesh body back to life is not... an example of the type resurrection Apostle Paul was speaking of that even Lazarus himself... will have later at Christ's return. This is elementary.


2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


What does Paul mean by that, "If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked"? If the flesh body is no more, then our soul would be naked with no body... unless clothed with ANOTHER body. The other body is the one from heaven, the "spiritual body" he taught of in 1 Cor.15:44. That's why Paul is contrasting the flesh body that our spirit groans... within, because our spirit desires to be clothed with that other body, "our house which is from heaven".


4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
(KJV)


What's "this tabernacle" idea Paul speaks of? It's our fleshy type body. The "we" part is what? It's our spirit with soul, for it is the part of our being that groans to be released from this body of flesh because of being burdened.

Once again, to be clothed upon per this means to be clothed upon with a body that is from heaven, an eternal body, the "image of the heavenly", an angelic type spiritual body, one that cannot perish, nor get sick, nor suffer heat or cold, etc. That is the "that mortality might be swallowed up of life" idea Paul speaks of.