Am I the only one on the planet who understands Romans 7?

[JBO]

It's not the body, but the spirit that has become a new creature. In other words, it's in the spirit that we have become a brand-new species because our spirit is totally new and therefore there is not an old sin nature left in us. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

If that is true, then nearly the whole of the NT is superfluous, since so much of it is the appeal to the saints to not sin and to obey the gospel. We have not become a brand new species, Our spirit is not totally new. Rather, our spirit is born again; it is regenerated; it is renewed to the condition that it was when we were born.

Now in addition to the regeneration of our spirit, we are given the gift of the Holy Spirit. The purpose of that gift is to give us a helper, a "paraclete", to assist us in our striving to not sin.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

That rhetorical question followed from the first question in verse 1: "Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?" That very question and the answer that followed refutes your position. Verses 12-13 makes no sense whatsoever if our regenerated spirit is no longer threatened by sin. The whole rest of the chapter is urging us to refuse to be slaves to unrighteousness and instead be slaves to righteousness. That is on us, with the help of the Holy Spirit to do.

 

[Peterlag]

If that is true, then nearly the whole of the NT is superfluous, since so much of it is the appeal to the saints to not sin and to obey the gospel. We have not become a brand new species, Our spirit is not totally new. Rather, our spirit is born again; it is regenerated; it is renewed to the condition that it was when we were born.

Now in addition to the regeneration of our spirit, we are given the gift of the Holy Spirit. The purpose of that gift is to give us a helper, a "paraclete", to assist us in our striving to not sin.

That rhetorical question followed from the first question in verse 1: "Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?" That very question and the answer that followed refutes your position. Verses 12-13 makes no sense whatsoever if our regenerated spirit is no longer threatened by sin. The whole rest of the chapter is urging us to refuse to be slaves to unrighteousness and instead be slaves to righteousness. That is on us, with the help of the Holy Spirit to do.

What should I do with these? Rip them out of the Bible?

Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

The verse in 2 Corinthians 5:21, is talking about the "righteousness of God in him." It's the "in him" that nobody seems to be able to understand. This whole thing functions "in him." It's in Christ and therefore in the new nature that is mentioned just a few verses above this in verse 17 where it says "new creature:" It's not that we do not sin in our old man nature. It's that we do not sin in the new man that we are told to put on. The churches have destroyed this idea by teaching we put on the new man by following the teachings of Jesus as we walk in our flesh. So this is a lost art.

In the book of Colossians, we read "putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" We did not put it off. It was the circumcision of Christ. Two verses later we read "together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;..." Again, it's "in him" or "with him." I also want to get the book of Hebrews in here where we see Christ offered himself once "for this he did once" and not like the high priest who offered up the sacrifice daily. The Lord Christ "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;..."

Peter has the same mindset as Paul when he writes in 1 Peter "that we, being dead to sins,..." Peter goes on to say that Christ suffered once for sins so as to bring us to God, and so this is why the Scripture reads "being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" Again, the old man crucified and the new man put in its place. Peter again, "ceased from sin;..." Put that mindset on or as Peter writes "arm yourself likewise with the same mind:" Because he that has suffered in the flesh or was crucified in the flesh has put on the new man because the other one is dead. That new person "hath ceased from sin;..."

 

[marks]

I do not. I believe what he served in the flesh was before Christ came in and what he serves in the mind is what he does after the spirit of Christ came in.

Romans 7:23-25 KJV
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Both are included in the "Present Active" verb, "serve", so they are contemporaneous.

If you believe the Bible, this is what it says.

Much love!

 

[Peterlag]

Romans 7:23-25 KJV
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Both are included in the "Present Active" verb, "serve", so they are contemporaneous.

If you believe the Bible, this is what it says.

Much love!

I don't walk in the flesh. I walk in the spirit. And the next verse tells you that. It's all in the OP.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[marks]

I don't walk in the flesh. I walk in the spirit. And the next verse tells you that. It's all in the OP.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

That's actually non-sequitor to what I commented.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This is defined in the following verses, whether you are in flesh or in spirit, determined by whether the Holy Spirit is in you. But that does not change the truths taught in the preceding verses, which, if your conclusions do not agree with the statements given, your conclusions need to be re-examined.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There are no words in the Bible that refers to sinless perfection. So whatever you are talking about is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how it's written in 2 Corinthians 5:17 (NIV)...

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

But you know what I am talking about and just playing word games. You are not an idiot.

 

[Peterlag]

But you know what I am talking about and just playing word games. You are not an idiot.

No I do not know what you are talking about. I have gotten into many debates on this site with all kinds of people who make stuff up that is not in the Bible. And the term sinless perfection is not in the Scripture. There was another guy a few months ago trying to convince me that there were Gentile Christians. And he would tell me how many friends he personally knows who have never been Jewish but are now Christian. So he should write his own book about his friends because the Bible does not have words that talk about a Gentile Christian. Such a concept does not exist in Scripture.

 

[Peterlag]

This is defined in the following verses, whether you are in flesh or in spirit, determined by whether the Holy Spirit is in you. But that does not change the truths taught in the preceding verses, which, if your conclusions do not agree with the statements given, your conclusions need to be re-examined.

Much love!

There's 2 different people in the following. One is you and the other is me...

Therefore, victory in the Christian life is as simple as renewing our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us. We will continue to struggle with sin if we see ourselves as old sinners saved by grace. And so it's also true we will manifest the change that took place in our new nature when we understand we are not old sinners saved by grace. Thus, we act like being part of the senses world when we see ourselves as being part of the senses world. We act like being part of the Christian world when we see ourselves as being part of Christ—i.e., in our born-again spirits.

 

[Peterlag]

That's actually non-sequitor to what I commented.

Much love!

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

 

[marks]

We will continue to struggle with sin if we see ourselves as old sinners saved by grace.

I'm not a sinner, I'm a child of God, and this is a point Paul makes in the latter portion of Romans 7.

Just the same, your doctrine is not complete without taking into account all he wrote, in the way that he wrote it, and I don't see that you are doing that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There's 2 different people in the following. One is you and the other is me...

You must be thinking of 2 other "marks". You are not describing me as you seem to think you are.

Much love!

 

[Peterlag]

You must be thinking of 2 other "marks". You are not describing me as you seem to think you are.

Much love!

I'm not saying anything dishonest. You believe you still have a sin nature and I do not. What have I said that is not true?

 

[marks]

I'm not saying anything dishonest. You believe you still have a sin nature and I do not. What have I said that is not true?

We even talked about this in detail not long ago. Renewing the mind is being trained in the Spirit to stop running the old programs left behind by the man born from Adam, who was crucified on the cross with Jesus.

Those old programs are sin. They are not in the new man, the spirit child of God, they are left behind in the remains of the man born from Adam, the flesh. Our bodies, our brains, imprinted with the patterns of sin.

Continue?

Much love!

 

[Peterlag]

I'm not a sinner, I'm a child of God, and this is a point Paul makes in the latter portion of Romans 7.

Just the same, your doctrine is not complete without taking into account all he wrote, in the way that he wrote it, and I don't see that you are doing that.

Much love!

I know you don't see it because you believe when Paul is talking about those in the flesh that he's talking about you because you see that you are still in the flesh. But he's not. In the flesh to Paul means without the spirit. So when he says you can walk in the flesh or you can walk in the spirit. Everyone on this site including you believe a Christian can do both. I do not believe that. For me if you're in the flesh you are not a Christian. If you are a Christian than you're not in the flesh.

 

[Peterlag]

We even talked about this in detail not long ago. Renewing the mind is being trained in the Spirit to stop running the old programs left behind by the man born from Adam, who was crucified on the cross with Jesus.

Those old programs are sin. They are not in the new man, the spirit child of God, they are left behind in the remains of the man born from Adam, the flesh. Our bodies, our brains, imprinted with the patterns of sin.

Continue?

Much love!

I do not believe renewing the mind is spending the rest of your life trying to clean up your thoughts. I believe we should renew our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us.

 

[marks]

I do not believe renewing the mind is spending the rest of your life trying to clean up your thoughts. I believe we should renew our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us.

Yes, thank you! This is something I love about a forum!

So . . . I'd like to amend my thoughts . . .

Renewing the mind is being trained in the Spirit to live in the new mind instead of running the old programs left behind by the man born from Adam, who was crucified on the cross with Jesus.

Those old programs are sin. They are not in the new man, the spirit child of God, they are left behind in the remains of the man born from Adam, the flesh. Our bodies, our brains, imprinted with the patterns of sin. Walking in the Spirit, also "putting on the new man", these are to live as we are, the spirit children of God. When it says "put off the old man", this is saying, you are living like the man you used to be, so stop, put on the new, and live the new you.

I like that much better!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I know you don't see it because you believe when Paul is talking about those in the flesh that he's talking about you because you see that you are still in the flesh.

No.

To be "in flesh", as he uses this in Romans 8, is to be unregenerate.

Do you not live in your body? That's your flesh. It houses your sensory organs, and it has your hands and feet so you can move about in this realm. The real you is spirit living in the celestial realm, yet still tied to this body, our means within this realm. And that body was corrupted by sin.

Much love!

 

[Peterlag]

No.

To be "in flesh", as he uses this in Romans 8, is to be unregenerate.

Do you not live in your body? That's your flesh. It houses your sensory organs, and it has your hands and feet so you can move about in this realm. The real you is spirit living in the celestial realm, yet still tied to this body, our means within this realm. And that body was corrupted by sin.

Much love!

I do not agree with you. And I'm not the only one who teaches this. Two other Preachers that do are...

1.) Andrew Wommack
2.) Andrew Farley

 

[Peterlag]

Yes, thank you! This is something I love about a forum!

So . . . I'd like to amend my thoughts . . .

Renewing the mind is being trained in the Spirit to live in the new mind instead of running the old programs left behind by the man born from Adam, who was crucified on the cross with Jesus.

Those old programs are sin. They are not in the new man, the spirit child of God, they are left behind in the remains of the man born from Adam, the flesh. Our bodies, our brains, imprinted with the patterns of sin. Walking in the Spirit, also "putting on the new man", these are to live as we are, the spirit children of God. When it says "put off the old man", this is saying, you are living like the man you used to be, so stop, put on the new, and live the new you.

I like that much better!

Much love!

On this we agree. Our minds are similar to computers in the sense they can be programmed, and once programmed, they will continue to function as programmed until we reprogram them. This is what I believe the twelfth chapter of Romans is talking about when it states we should renew our minds. Our old sin nature programmed our minds how to walk by the flesh when we were born in sin. To renew our mind deals with breaking or changing a habit and to do this we must tap into the subconscious portion of our mind because habits are controlled by the subconscious mind. It's necessary to harness the full powers of our mind to successfully free ourselves from the habit of our "old man." Why? Because it's indeed true that people have become what they are because of their dominating thoughts and desires.