Am I the only one on the planet who understands Romans 7?

[Ritajanice]

And the phrase "sin nature" is not in any of those. And nothing there about "Total depravity inherited from Adam" either. Nice try though.

It’s there about the “ sin nature “ ..only you can’t see / hear...because you are spiritually blind and deaf....anyone can see that...just by reading your posts...

You have no understanding/ knowledge of anything spiritual....

 

[JBO]

It’s there about the “ sin nature “ ..only you can’t see / hear...because you are spiritually blind and deaf....anyone can see that...just by reading your posts...

You have no understanding/ knowledge of anything spiritual....

What I understand is that you "see" what isn't there.

 

[Ritajanice]

What I understand is that you "see" what isn't there.

Lol....I see/ hear the word of God...in the Spirit...something you have no understanding of spiritual matters.

Are you sure you have been grafted into the vine?

Surely you know who the vine is?

How were you grafted In by God?

You are understanding in the intellect....I pray God opens your eyes and ears...” spiritual “ ...

 

[Peterlag]

My reply #31 was in response to your phrase "sin nature". That phrase is simply not found in scripture. Moreover, it typically results from the false notion of Total Depravity inherited from Adam, something you mentioned in the post I was replying to. That false concept is at the heart of some of the worst doctrines in all of Christendom.

Call it sin nature or old man or children of wrath makes no difference because the concept is the same.

We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

 

[Peterlag]

When Paul speaks of the deliverance of law I think he is referring to justice. If we look at God's Law as the ultimate "cause" and Justice as the "affect" created by the cause. Then to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the plane of affect, where sin resides.

So in a sence, we become the cause and the law itself rather than being the effect.

I would respond to this if I knew what you were saying.

 

[Peterlag]

That is not so much about Israel and the law. It is more about himself and the law. It is very much his own personal experience and what the law means to the individual. Verses 8&9 specifically deal with his introduction to the law and his own sin once he became aware of the law and its meaning.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

He is talking about himself, not Israel. He was once spiritually alive before he was old enough and mature enough to understand the law. But when the commandment came, that is, when he learned and understood, sin came alive and he died. Hie sinned and he died. He is anthropomorphizing both law and sin.

In Romans 7 he's talking about himself as a Jewish man talking to his Jewish buddies and not addressing the Church of God.

 

[Peterlag]

Except in vs 25 he identifies the 2 natures at work in the believer.

You believe the two natures are being mentioned for the same Christian. I believe Paul is saying you can walk in the flesh which means not being Christian or you can walk in the spirit which would mean you have the spirit of Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

Btw, Paul's letter in the op is to romans, not hebrews.

The letter was addressed to Romans, but when he comes to chapter 7 he tells you right up at the top of the chapter that he is now going to talk to his Jewish buddies.

 

[Peterlag]

Every believer is engaged in an ongoing spiritual warfare that takes place within us.

Ephesians 4:22-24 identifies the combatants as the “old man” or old nature, and the “new man” or new nature.

These two are constantly at odds, seeking to either pull us as believers into some form of sinful activity or pull us toward Christ-honoring conduct. The Apostle Paul acknowledged that he too struggled as this warfare waged within him.

He stated, “For what I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I” (Romans 7:15). Every believer can experientially identify with this inner conflict. We want to live apart from sin, as did Paul, but the “… sin [nature] that dwelleth in me” (vs. 17, 20b) is constantly luring us away from the proper path. When believers are in a good place spiritually, they can say with Paul, “…I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (vs. 22). Why, then, if we yearn to live for Christ and do what is pleasing to Him, do we so often fail in sin? Romans 7:23 describes it this way, “But I see another law (or fixed principle) in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”

The bad news is that this unseen spiritual conflict will continue within us until the day we go home to be with Christ or until He comes for us in the Rapture. The good news is twofold. One day we will be free of this conflict. The old nature will be eradicated when we are taken to our heavenly home. Then we will live in continual victory. But until then, we have God’s written Word and indwelling Holy Spirit to strengthen our new nature. To the extent we avail ourselves of both, we’ll find victory.

You are not alone in this battle or in failures. Stay homesick for heaven, stay in the Word, and seek to yield yourself to the Holy Spirit.

As to Paul in Romans 7-

The Conflict Between the Old and New Natures
by Pastor Cornelius R. Stam


Concerning the conflict continually going on between the old and new natures in the believer, St. Paul says:

“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would” (Gal. 5:17).

Regarding this conflict in his own personal experience, he writes:

“For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

“For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

“But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members” (Rom. 7:19,22,23).

It has been taught by some that we need not experience this continual strife between the old nature and the new. They say: “Get out of the 7th of Romans into the 8th.”

We would remind such that the Apostle Paul wrote Romans 7 and Romans 8 at the same sitting; that in the original language the letter goes right on without interruption — without even a chapter division.

Thus the same apostle who exclaims: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1) refers in the same letter, only a few sentences before, and in the present tense, to “the law of sin which is in my members,” and freely acknowledges the present operation of that law in his members, as we have seen above.

How then shall we get out of the 7th of Romans into the 8th? Paul experienced both at the same time, and so do we, for while we are free from the condemnation of sin, sin itself nevertheless continues to work within us, and we must constantly “mortify the deeds of the body” (Rom. 8:13).

Ephesians 4:22-24 is not talking about 2 natures. It's talking about renewing your mind to start walking in the spirit and no longer walk in the flesh. I don't know how he could have written it any clearer. Renewed in the spirit of your mind. Put on the new man.

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

 

[Johann]

Ephesians 4:22-24 is not talking about 2 natures. It's talking about renewing your mind to start walking in the spirit and no longer walk in the flesh. I don't know how he could have written it any clearer. Renewed in the spirit of your mind. Put on the new man.

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

So-have you reached the state of absolute perfection-unable to miss the mark?
I will await your reply.
J.

 

[Peterlag]

If that is your take on Romans 7, then you have missed the whole point of Paul's teaching. The entire passage of Romans 6:1-8:39 Is a declaration that the all-sufficiency of grace gives victory over sin, something the law could not do. Even so, the victory through grace does not mean that the law is bad. And that victory is real even though the Christian continues to struggle against sin. Paul describes that struggle by using himself as the example. He describes the nature of the struggle and source of the struggle.

I am not in a struggle. The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives.

 

[Johann]

I am not in a struggle. The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives.

Good for you-you have accomplished what Paul could only dream of. Praise God for thorns in the side.

 

[Fred J]

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

1.) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
He's writing to Israel who knew the Law.

2.) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
He's talking about the Jewish women under the Law.

4.) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He's telling Israel they are now dead to their Law.

5.) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
By the Law he says. He's talking to Israel.

6.) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He's telling Israel they are delivered from the Law.

7.) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the Law sin? Israel had the Law.

8.) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
By the commandment... the Law. He's talking to Israel.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Law and the commandment... Israel.

12.) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Law and commandment. Still about Israel.

13.) ...by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
By the commandment. It's the Jewish Law he's still talking about.

14.) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Law... Israel's.

16.) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Still talking about the Law.

17.) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Under the Law.

18.) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Under the Law.

25.) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh was under the Law.

1.) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No more flesh... Hello!!!

2.) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
No more Law of sin and death. Can you see he has now stopped talking about Israel?

3.) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The Law was weak through the flesh. Why am I the only one who sees this?

4.) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Bingo.

9.) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, where is it written?

 

[Peterlag]

Scripture never contradicts itself. If we think that there is no way that we can now sin, I think scripture needs more study.

After all, why would Paul even say this if we cannot fail? Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
___________

Matthew 10:22 ESV And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:4-6 ESV And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.

John 3:36 ESV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 15:6 ESV If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

1 Corinthians 10:12 ESV Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

1 Corinthians 15:2 ESV And by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

1 Timothy 4:1 ESV Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

These and many more say the same thing.

I don't get you point nor do I understand why you mention the gospels concerning Christians. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not the "New Testament" since God did not put a paper in the Bible between Malachi and Matthew that says New Testament. Men did that... probably Catholics.

 

[Johann]

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, where is it written?

Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Did you read Romans?

 

[Peterlag]

So-have you reached the state of absolute perfection-unable to miss the mark?
I will await your reply.
J.

I don't read in the Bible anything about absolute perfection. I read about sin. Here's an example...

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

It does not say...

Whosoever abideth in him is in a state of absolute perfection-unable to miss the mark...

 

[Peterlag]

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, where is it written?

Romans 8:2

 

[JBO]

In Romans 7 he's talking about himself as a Jewish man talking to his Jewish buddies and not addressing the Church of God.

That he is addressing Jewish Christians doesn't make it not addressing the Church. No doubt some of the non-Jewish Christians were aware to some degree of the Law of Moses. That is not something Paul hid from them.

 

[Peterlag]

This wasn't a letter to the Jews. It's called Romans. I am sure there were some Jews there, but by now, 30 years after Jesus death and resurrection, people were familiar with why he died, what the Law was, from which we learn what sin is.

Here is a much better commentary on the gist of Romans 7, specifically vs. 15-20 ...

By Charles Spurgeon

[Romans 7:15. For what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

This is a strange contradiction, — a man who has grace enough to will to do good, and yet does it not. There are two men in the one man, — the new nature struggling against the old nature. This must be a renewed man who talks in this fashion, or else he could not say that he hated sin; yet there must be a part of him still imperfect, or else he would not do that which he hates.

Romans 7:16. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

“If I do that against which my conscience rebels, so far, the better part of me owns the goodness of the law, though the baser part of me rebels against it.”

Romans 7:17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The renewed man still stands out against sin. His heart is not wishful to sin, but that old nature within him will sin even to the end.

Romans 7:18-19. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Oh, how often have men, who have been struggling after holiness, had to use these words of the apostle! The more holy they become, the more they realize that there is still a something better beyond them, after which they struggle, but to which they cannot yet attain; so still they cry, “The good that we would we do not: but the evil which we would not, that we do.”

Romans 7:20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The true man — the newborn man — is struggling after that which is right. The real “I “, the immortal “ego”, is still pressing forward, like a ship beating up against wind and tide, and striving to reach the harbor where it shall find perfect rest. Oh, what struggles, what contentions, what rightings, there are within the men and women in whom the grace of God is working mightily! Those who have but little grace can take things easily, and swim with the current; but where grace is mighty, sin will fight for the mastery, though it must yield ultimately, for there can never be any true peace until it is subdued.] Spurgeon

Romans was addressed to Rome, but in chapter 7 Paul tells us clearly that he would like to now talk to his Jewish buddies. And so he is no longer addressing the Christian in that chapter.

 

[Peterlag]

You know I'm not Catholic, right?

I'm talking about what the Bible itself says.

Much love!

You may not be Catholic but most Christians believe Catholic stuff. Here's an example...

Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.