America in the Bible

[DaDad]

WHY Rev. 12 has SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads" versus the Rev. 13 having TEN diadems over the "ten horns", and WHY the locations and quantities have changed.

... diadems ... royal, ...

Hi shurt678,

It appears you have no answer for my question. Thus I would anticipate you have no answer for the balance of Revelation 13. This is why I start at the foundation, rather than the "conclusion".



To all,

Scripture warns against a house built on sand. We are well advised to heed that advice.



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Hi shurt678,

It appears you have no answer for my question. Thus I would anticipate you have no answer for the balance of Revelation 13. This is why I start at the foundation, rather than the "conclusion".



To all,

Scripture warns against a house built on sand. We are well advised to heed that advice.



With Best Regards,
DD

Thank you again for your response!

I have no answer that you want to hear I think is more like it, however thank you anyway - appreciate you and your words sir.

btw the Hawaiian steak and lobster of Rev.13:1-10 = the whole antichristain POWER in the whole world. Rev.13:11-18 = the whole antichristian propaganda in the whole world (deceptive activity), ie, I at least gave you the head's up regarding my view that you wouldn't want to hear..

Old powerless, lower paygrade, Jack

 

[DaDad]

I have no answer ..

Hi shturt678,

Please let me know when you can respond to the question as asked:

WHY Rev. 12 has SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads" versus the Rev. 13 having TEN diadems over the "ten horns", and WHY the locations and quantities have changed.



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Hi shturt678,

Please let me know when you can respond to the question as asked:

WHY Rev. 12 has SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads" versus the Rev. 13 having TEN diadems over the "ten horns", and WHY the locations and quantities have changed.



With Best Regards,
DD

Thank you again for your reponse!

In Art class they agaped me when I didn't draw a picture nor critique other's art work plus in Church they agaped me more when I didn't utter a note, ie, just mouthed the music - My point is it won't do me any good to draw you a picture of my not very exhaustive interpretaton, however accurate, lucid and to the point answering your good question nor could I sing it to you in a poetic fashion.

Maybe if I learned 'sign language' then you would understand my reply? Second thought, tried to learn it long long ago and was too difficult for me.


The burden of Revelation chapters 12 & 13 is in Rev.13:11-18, ie, the whole world's antichristian propaganda (deceptive activity).

The exact answer to Rev.13 is within the former.

Old non-exact Jack

 

[DaDad]

Hi shturt678,

The exact answer to Rev.13 is within the former.

Perhaps you could resolve BOTH:



WHY does Rev. 12 have SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads" versus the Rev. 13 having TEN diadems over the "ten horns", and WHY did the locations and quantities change.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Hi shturt678,



Perhaps you could resolve BOTH:



WHY does Rev. 12 have SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads" versus the Rev. 13 having TEN diadems over the "ten horns", and WHY did the locations and quantities change.


With Best Regards,
DD

Thank you again for your response, and apologize to you and our Lord for my last prickly post.

Let's try and reconcile Rev.13:1, "And I saw out of the sea a beast coming up, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and on his heads names of blasphemy." Simply "the sea" and "the earth" are expressions that are equivalent to the whole world. The dragon thus stood where sea and earth meet noting ek as denotes the source of this wild beast, ie, from beneath. Both of these wild beasts (Rev.13:11) do not rise on their own inititative, they are Satan's powerful agents, ie, the power found in these brutes is that of Satan himself remembering that something interferred with Satan personally at the Cross, ie, Michael the arch angel (Rev.12:7, etc.). Satan must work through these agents as he is personally in the abyss:

Rev.13:1-10: the antichristian power in the whole world

Rev.13:11-18 the antichristian propaganda (deceptive activity) in the whole world

Old gentle Jack

 

[DaDad]

Let's try and reconcile Rev.13:1,

Hi shturt678,

You seem to be avoiding the question as proposed multiple times:

WHY does Rev. 12 have SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads" versus the Rev. 13 having TEN diadems over the "ten horns", and WHY did the locations and quantities change.


It would seem that if you can't answer ALL aspects, you have a solution for NONE (this is not a buffet line where you get to pick and choose what you regard, and what you disregard). Please respond as requested.



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Hi shturt678,

You seem to be avoiding the question as proposed multiple times:

WHY does Rev. 12 have SEVEN diadems over the "seven heads" versus the Rev. 13 having TEN diadems over the "ten horns", and WHY did the locations and quantities change.


It would seem that if you can't answer ALL aspects, you have a solution for NONE (this is not a buffet line where you get to pick and choose what you regard, and what you disregard). Please respond as requested.



With Best Regards,
DD

Thank you for your response again!

Rev.12 is one of the easier ones to interpret, ie, Here simply is pictured the effort of Satajn against Jesus and then against His Church during the N.T. era until the end.

Even those of lower paygrades such as myself understand this, ie, nothing incongruous or difficult?

The only thing I left out is the "dragon" has no stephanos, not even a usurped wreath of victory, but only "diadems," royal fillets of pretended kingship, symbols of arrogated dominion.

Are you having difficulty with Satan's utter defeat at the Cross? Simply means he cannot accuse "our brethren." Which verse are you having so much difficutly with?

Old licid Jack

 

[brakelite]

This thread began on the subject of America inthe Bible. Somehow, as many such threads do, it got sidetracked. I would like to return to that question. Is America in the Bible, and if so, where?
I am in favour of the opinion that yes, America is inthe Bible, ands not only so, more prominently than many realize.
Because I am neither a pretersist, nor futurist, but of the historicist persuasion, my understanding of eschatology is based on the historicist perspective. For those of you who may not quite understand how historicism is different, allow me to briefly explain, then I will go into the OP. I am convinced that when prophets, especially one such as Daniel for example, were given a vision of future political and social upheaval, the events described in the vision, unless specifically revealed otherwise, began to unfold immediately after the vision was given. They continued to iunfold over a period of time until the vision was completed.
Nebuchadnezzar's vision Daniel's interpretation of the vision of the statue in Daniel 2 is a foundation vision upon which all the future visions were based. Each subsequent vision, those of Daniel 7, 8, 9, and 11, and even going into 12, were all explanatory or magnifications of former visions. The statue formed the foundaion, the beasts provided further details. The siginifant aspect of those visions which may differ from the more popular futurist perspective, is that I do not recognize any "gap" between the fourth beast and the coming of Christ. I do not believe that God 'forgot', or was ignorant of what took place in the intervening 2000 years. On the contrary, those 2000 years are depicted in quite graphic detail in chapter 11:23 on. But I digress. First, some background.
The various beasts depicted throughout the visions represent empires. Babylon, Media/persia, Greece, Rome. There is only a little argument over this within Christianity, it is what took place after Rome fell that major difference occur. In the statue, the iron of Rome is seen to continue all the way down to the second coming where it is destroyed by Jesus, the rock. Many believe that this means a revival of the Roman empire, as seen in the modern united Europe, or "Club of Rome", the original group of the EEC. Unfortunately what many fail to grasp is that the statue does not even hint at any break in the time-line between the legs of iron, and the feet of iron and clay. Remember, this vision is only a very broad outline of the future.
The next vision in Daniel 7 reveals far greater detail. But significantly, once again there is no hint of a gap or time lapse between the fourth beast, and what comes after. "What comes after?" you may ask. The hrons which grew from the head of the beast. These are clear depictions of powers that followed on after the fourth beast fell. They grew out of its head. They didn't arise seperately, nor did they come from elsewhere. They grew out of Rome. And history attests to this as being the case. The nations of modern Europe were founded upon thosew verey horns which grew from the 4th beast of Rome. Those horns were barbarian tribes that became established throughout the former empire from the 4th century on, and settled upon the ruins that Rome left behind when Constantine moved the capital east to Byzantium, (changing its name to Constantinople, now Istanbul).
Then we have the little horn that grew up among them. Bible scholars throught Christendom for centuries recognized this little horn as representative of the papacy, until recently. Today, preteerists claim it is Antiochus, futurists claim it is the future antichrist. Both preterists and futurists however ignore that contyinuing timeline. The horn grew out of Rome. Anyone who has just a modicum of historical appreciation will attest to the fact that the papacy not only inherited many of the pagan Roman traditions and beliefs, but only came to power (receiving its 'seat and authority' Revel. 13:2) on the back of pagan Rome's absence. (2 Thess. 2:6)
Therefore what God was pleased to reveal through His prophets, both Daniel and the apostle John, was a chronological timeline of the rise of powers and nations from the 6th century bc to our present day.

So, we come to America. Why should America even be mentioned in the Bible? All those other empires and beasts were all great enemies of God's people. They invaded Palestine, destroyed the temple, took Israelites into captivity, introduced social and religious tenets into the true religion thus compromising the true with falsehood, even to the point of crucifying the Son of God. Why would America rate a mention among all this?
First, let me ask two very important questions. How many empires are represented in Bible prophecy? And why aren't great empires such as China, Japan, and the Inca or Aztec empires depicted?
Revelation 12 gives us a very important clue that answers both questions.....
Revel. 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Later we are told....
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Thus it was Satan himself who was waiting before the woman to devour the Messiah. Yet he did not do this in person. To do such in person would be to reveal himself and thus divulge too much of his true nature and identity. Throughout history he has used agents which do his bidding. And the heads of this beast is representative of each major empire that rose up and became big time players in the war against God's people. And what do we see? We see in Bible prophecy a total of 7 beasts , all carnivorous, all persecuting powers, all viviously territorial, all enemies at one time or another of God's church, whether olt testament or new.
The first beast was Babylon. The second, Media/Persia, the thrid Greece, and the fourth Rome. These all from Daniel. Then we see horns growing from the fourth beast. the little horn grew into a beast in its own right, and is revealed to us in Revelation 13:1. This composite beast of Rev. 13:1 has many of the characteristics of the former powers. The lion face of Babylon, the bear claws of Meda/Persia, the leopard spots of Greece, the iron teeth of Rome. Most of us are well aware of the many and varied aspects of the Roman church that find there roots going back into pagan Babylon, roots which continued through all the subsequent powers, and find themselves a modern day concoction of pagan tradition and idolatry mixed with Christianity. This is the first beast of Revelation 13. Does this beast present itself as a persecution power? Yes. Is the RCC a persecuting power? Yes.
Which leaves us with two more beasts to find. The first of these two we will find in Revelation 11. It is described as a beast that ascends oiut of a bottomless pit, making war against God's witnesses, and killing them. A time is given for the duration of their death, a prophetic 3 and a half days. In real time this equates to 3 and 1/2 years. There is debate on this naturally, and also on who these witnesses are. It is my belief that these two witnesses are the old and new testaments of the Bible, they represent God's word. (Compare Rev. 11:4 with Zech. 4) So what power in history arose up and has become an implacable enemy of God's people, and specifically put to death the Bible for 3 and 1/2 years? Remember, that the fifth power, the little horn which grew out of the 4th beast, is not a literal localized political entity, but a global spiritual power. So also is the beast of Revel. 11:7. But like papal Rome, which grew from a localised political entity, so also does this power, atheism. Atheism grew from the localized political power of France. The French revolution was a war against Christianity. the major player in those days against whom France aimed its weapons of war, was the Roman church. The French government under the revolutionary rule of the people banned the Bible, and burnt every copy they coiuld find. The Biuble was outlawed in France, and anyone found with one was bruatlly murdered. Blood flowed throught the nation, both Catholic and Protestant, tens of thousands perished, and thousands more escaped to places such as Britain and America. Atheism was officially crowned as the religion of the empire.This lasted for precisely 3 and 1/2 years. At the end of this time, the church was granted permission to re-establish, God's word returned to once again its rightful place in society. Interestingly, it was at this time that Bible Societies began to be formed, and have been hugely responsible for the written word to be promulgated throught all the world. (Rev. 11:11,12) It was from these roots that communism evolved, itself an implacable enemy to God's people. Today, atheism, although not the wholesale persecuting power it once may have been, is still an enemy to God's people, and an enemy to truth. Thus the 6th head is identified.
Which leaves us with but one beast yet unidentified, which we find in Revel.13:11.
11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Like all the former beasts which represented spiritual powers, we can expect that this beast also has its beginnings in a political entity. Just previous to its rise, we read in Rev. 13:10 that that the frormer beast, the papacy, was to go into captivity. (See also further evidence in verse 3 that tells us that one of the heads is wounded to death, but is healed.) Thus the spiritual empire of the papacy is put to death, but returns to life. Did such a scenario takew place? Yes, absolutely so, and it was the atheistic power of France, through Napoleon's general Berthier, who in 1798 entered Rome, took the pope captive, nationalized all the papal states and disbanded the college of cardinals, who effectively put to death the Roman church. And leaders from all over the world thought that such an historic event spelt the death knell of Catholicism. But not so. Mussolini, in 1928, reinstated the papacy as a major player in both political and religious spheres by returning the Vatican to the pope and reinstating the Vatican as an independant nation state.. The headlines throughout the world declared the wound healed declared.
So what major nation was rising up at the time of the fall of the papacy, around 1798? There is only one answer. The United States of America. Unlike the former beasts which arose out of the sea, (Re 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters (seas) which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.) the second beast rises from the land. A perfect description of the rise of the USA. If the sea represents a populous area, the land must be the opposite...a less populated area. And so America was. The horns like a lamb? On the former beasts the horns represented nations or kings that would rise through conquest...as natural horns are used on animals in the wild...but in this case the initial rise would be peaceful, and her government founded on different principles. In contradistinction to the previous beast which was founded on Catholic principles of a church/state union, this beast was based on Protestant priciples...a religion without a pope and a state without a king.
I do think that it will come as no surprise to any that there is a time coming soon when the US becomes an enemy to God's people. We can all see and recognize how different legislative enactments have limited personal freedoms, and increase greatly the role of the state in the lives of individuals, quite different I believe to the intents of the constitution and bill of rights. A total change in character to the point of speaking like the dragon and enforcing religious submission to papal (the first beast) doctrines, (the mark of the beast,) and by creating a 'nominal-Protestant'/state union,( an image to the first church/state beast), and enforcing worship in accordance with Satanic deceptiuve counterfeit religious practice, in the not too far distant future in not beyond the realms of possibility. this NT global spiritual power arising from the localized political entity of the US, is aposytate protestantoism.

Thus we have the seven heads of the various beasts each head representative of different stages of growth under the leadership and counsel of Satan, each head or empire the implacable enemy to God's people, each head or empire a persecuting power, each chronologically growing yet all inheriting various characteristics of the former beasts, culminating in the final global union of church and state depicted in
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Here we have the church riding upon the back of the state, supported by the state power through its armies and legislations, but guiding the state through coercion and bribery. (Revel. 13:14-18)
Babylon
Media/Persia
Greece
Rome
Roman Catholicism
Atheism
Apostate Protestantism.

Note
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

John is looking at this stage from the perspective of the time after the fall of the papacy, and the rise of atheism and American protestantism.
Five are fallen...Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, Rome and the papacy....
one is....atheism...
one is yet to come...apostate protestantism which ....will continue a short space...
And the beast that was, and is not (the papacy) even he is the eighth (reborn papacy) is of the seven and goeth into perdition.

Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

In future, the near future, the world will be divided into 10 distinct precincts,(this is verifiable with a little research) the NWO governed by a despotic dictatorial potentate some call the antichrist. My contention is the antichrist has been here all along, having his beginnings at the time of John, (when the papal apostacy began) and will finallyrule as the woman riding the beast. It is that union that is the last in a long historic run of Satan's decepetive masterpieces in his war against God's people.

Re 17:14 ¶ These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

This is the true armageddon. The final ultimate war mounted against all of God's true disciples on a global scale.

 

[Floyd]

Hi Eric I think I asked a different question than you answered:



Would you prefer WWI, WWII, the ascension of the U.S. over the U.K., the Cold War, and the Korean War? Or how about the Cuban Missile Crisis?


With Best Regards,
DD

America in Prophecy


[SIZE=14pt]Some people are of the opinion that the USA should be somewhere specifically mentioned in Scripture. There is much comment, debate and puzzlement as to why such a powerful nation on earth is apparently not mentioned at all! Some argue that as other powerful empires are mentioned by name, and by implication, such as Babylon, the Greek Empire, Mede, Persians and Romans etc., that the lack of the USA being represented in Scripture could be construed as meaning that the Bible is not a valid document after all. What is missed by many students and commentators is the basic fact that America and many other Empires are not mentioned because they are not in "the prophetic area," when Israel is "Ammi," (My people, Hosea 1-2.)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]The position of the Jews in Scripture, Old and New Testaments.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]All of Scripture relates to Almighty God's plan for the Redemption of mankind, and particularly His plan for the saving of Israel and the "Church of His Body." However, Israel is central to God's plan, and it is only because "Christendom" has corruptly taught that the church is referred to in Scripture where Israel is mentioned, see: [/SIZE] Replacement Theology[SIZE=medium] (Separate study)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] that great confusion reigns in the minds of many Christians. When the Bible (examined and commented as per the Companion Bible, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]see [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Dr. E. W. Bullinger [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] Dr. David Ginsburg:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) is read prayerfully, that the Truth regarding prophecy unveils. In the events yet to unfold, and possibly after the "Body" has been "Raptured," the yet dire events for Israel and "the nations" will be enacted.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The USA will be subject to the promise of God in the context of its help for Israel, Gen. 12:3. Contrary to the oft stated condemnation of the USA, the writers are of the firm opinion that she will be blessed by God for her support of His chosen people. That blessing towards the USA, together with Australia and other nations that have behaved in similar manner over the lifetime of the nation of Israel, and particularly during and since the second world war, and the coming dire events! Any nation or peoples that persecute Israel, will in the same ethos, have to face the judgement of Almighty God, when Christ judges the nations, and 1000 years later at the Great White Throne Judgement Rev. 20:11-15.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Our Lord spoke of this in the context of the [/SIZE] Sheep and Goat Judgement [SIZE=medium](Separate study)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], Matt. 35:31- 46. The Lord is speaking here after He has returned to earth in great power, and has vanquished the enemies of Israel, for Almighty God. This is a much misused and mistaught prophecy. In verse 40, the Lord gives the definition of the judgment; those that helped “My brethren!” As most churches teach that the “brethren” are “the church” or “Christendom,” the same error as much of current misteaching of prophecy applies here! Christians are taught that they[/SIZE] are the ones referred to, instead of the truth, which is that the reference is to Israel! [SIZE=14pt]The Gross Neglect by Church Teachers of Coming Events:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]A careful study of Scripture as it is written, (i.e. conforming to the best manuscripts, as is the case in the Companion Bible, based on the AV, 1611) shows that prophecy is related to Israel, and the prophetic area. Also in the opinion of the writers, prophecy is only active when Israel is "Ammi," or leading into the "Ammi" state.[/SIZE]

 

[DaDad]

Hi brakelite,

Nebuchadnezzar's vision Daniel's interpretation of the vision of the statue in Daniel 2 is a foundation vision upon which all the future visions were based.
...
The next vision in Daniel 7 reveals far greater detail. But significantly, once again there is no hint of a gap or time lapse between the fourth beast, and what comes after. "What comes after?" you may ask. The hrons which grew from the head of the beast. These are clear depictions of powers that followed on after the fourth beast fell. They grew out of its head. They didn't arise seperately, nor did they come from elsewhere. They grew out of Rome.

Please consider that before you attempt Daniel 7, you must solve Daniel 2, -- specifically where 2:45 DEMANDS a Five world empire scenario: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.

And now appreciating a FIVE world empire sequence, we should consider that because (Dan. 2) FIVE ≠ (Dan. 7) FOUR, we MUST conceive that the FOUR represent the Fifth "divided" empire of Clay.



It's all simple world history written in advance.

With Best Regards,
DD

 

[brakelite]

Hi brakelite,


Please consider that before you attempt Daniel 7, you must solve Daniel 2, -- specifically where 2:45 DEMANDS a Five world empire scenario: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.

And now appreciating a FIVE world empire sequence, we should consider that because (Dan. 2) FIVE ≠ (Dan. 7) FOUR, we MUST conceive that the FOUR represent the Fifth "divided" empire of Clay.



It's all simple world history written in advance.

With Best Regards,
DD

What happens in chapter 7 is the same pattern of empires but with much greater detail. A lion representing Babylon, a bear representing Media-Persia, a Leopard representing Greece, and a horrible indescribable beast representing Rome. Out of this last beast grows 10 horns, plus another which grew up among them, and displaces 3 of them.
Belshazzar ruled Babylon approx. 553 BC.to 539 BC. The prophecy re the predatory animals was given in his first year of reign.
The bear, the second animal to rise up, therefore represented whatever kingdom succeeded Babylon. The bear was pictured as rising up higher on one side, and had 3 ribs in it’s mouth. A corresponding prophecy in Daniel 8 enlarges on the theme, and gives even more detail The ram here is said to represent Media/Persia, and the horn on the ram had one side which grew up first, but the other side came up last and grew higher.
The empire was made up of two groups of people. The Medes came up first and Ahasuerus and then his son Darius were the first kings. It was Cyrus however who defeated Babylon in 539BC and he took full power later that year.Cyrus was the first of a line of Persian kings that ruled until Greece defeated them. The 3 ribs in the mouth of the bear represented the 3 major powers that were defeated by this Media/Persian empire, Egypt, Lydia, and Babylon. The link thereore is absoolutely embedded between chapter 2 and 7, and 8. There are details in chapter 11 that brings even greater detail to the political thrusts and counter thrusts that marked the rise and fall of these nations.
The next animal was a leopard which had 4 heads. Alexander the Great
defeated the Persians at the battle of Arbela in the year 331 BC. Greece then became the ruling empire, and was represented by the leopard and the goat of Daniel 8. The leopards 4 heads represent 4 generals that took over from Alexander when he died at the age of 33. These 4 generals divided the empire up between them; they were Cassander, Seleucus, Ptolemy, and Lysimachus. The goat had at first one horn,(Alexander) but was broken and and four others came up in its stead. Thus the 4 horns and the 4 heads all are the same 4 generals who became kings of their own territories. Chapter 11 of Daniel beginning with verse 3 describes in amazingly accurate detail the rise of the four generals who became kings, their various wars with one another and outside forces which continued until Rome arose in verse 14 'the breakers of thy people'.
The 4th beast, Rome, appeared on the scene approx 150 BC. The 4th beast with its 10 horns and a little horn which grew great and destroyed 3 of the first horns, will be the focus of the next post. It is this beast, that remains a part of the world of politics until our day, and takes a major role in the near future.
So far, 3 beasts have been dealt with, and 3 empires identified. Babylon, Media-Persia, and Greece. We saw how the 4 heads of the leopard in Daniel 7 and the 4 horns of the goat in Daniel 8 represented the break up of the Grecian empire into 4 distinct kingdoms under Alexander’s 4 generals who took over after his death.
Things get very interesting with the 4th beast. We are given much more detail, and our attention is drawn in particular to the “little horn” which grows from the head of this beast, as if God is wanting to focus our attention on this horn, reasons for which you will shortly understand.
Rome was never conquered by any succeeding empire as were the ones before. It slowly devolved as warring barbarian tribes from the north invaded it’s territories, but Rome has always continued to exist but in a different form. The ten horns on the beast are ten kingdoms which developed in the western hemisphere of the empire. One must also remember the ten toes of the statue in Daniel 2. Constantine moved the capital of the empire to Constantinople in the east, leaving the western portion more or less defenceless. It is the western part of the empire that the prophecy focuses on, because it was this part that had by far the greater influence on the church.
It must be remembered that this prophecy was written some 5oo years or more prior to the actual events. Daniel lived in the 6th century BC, these events took place beginning from his time, and continuing down through the ages to today, 2,500 years later. The horns of the 4th beast appeared on the scene around about the 3rd and 4th centuries AD, and the “little horn” began developing in the 2nd century and grew to maturity becoming a power in its own right in the 6th century.
The ten horns represent kings and their respective kingdoms that would arise . Because the horns grow OUT of the beast, Rome, we must look WITHIN that empire in order to find them. We must not expect to find any powers to invade from outside the empire. Prophecy, even in these seemingly minor details is completely accurate.
Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things…..
….24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
So what does history show us? The following is a list of ten barbarian tribes that carved out a land niche for their people toward the end of the Roman pagan rule in western Europe. There are 7 modern nations of Europe that descended from these people. 3 of the original 10 were destroyed.
VISIGOTHS………. SPAIN
ANGLO SAXONS….. ENGLAND
FRANKS………. FRANCE
ALEMANNI …….. GERMANY
BURGUNDIANS …… SWITZERLAND
LOMBARDS ……. ITALY
SUEVI ……… PORTUGAL
HERULI ………. ROOTED UP
OSTROGOTHS ….. ROOTED UP
VANDALS ……. ROOTED UP
No trace nor descendant exists today of those tribes that were destroyed.

 

[DaDad]

Hi brakelite,

What happens in chapter 7 is the same pattern of empires but with much greater detail.

What happens in Chapter 2 is FIVE world empires: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, of which the FIFTH is "divided".

41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom



What happens in Chapter 7 is the FIFTH "divided" kingdom is presented as the 3 concurrent superpowers, and the "dreadful" United Nations one-world-government which is judged to perdition, while the 3-superpowers are allowed to continue until integrated into the new Millennial Kingdom.

11 ... as I looked, the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.





If otherwise, please resolve the Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE to an alternate solution. (Disobeying/ignoring Scripture is NOT an acceptable "alternate solution".)



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[brakelite]

Hi brakelite,



What happens in Chapter 2 is FIVE world empires: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, of which the FIFTH is "divided".

41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom



What happens in Chapter 7 is the FIFTH "divided" kingdom is presented as the 3 concurrent superpowers, and the "dreadful" United Nations one-world-government which is judged to perdition, while the 3-superpowers are allowed to continue until integrated into the new Millennial Kingdom.

11 ... as I looked, the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.





If otherwise, please resolve the Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE to an alternate solution. (Disobeying/ignoring Scripture is NOT an acceptable "alternate solution".)



With Best Regards,
DD

DD, hi.
Daniel 2:32 This image’s head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

DD, it is not a fifth kingdom that is divided, it is the fourth kingdom of Rome that is divided. And history confirms this as a correct understanding.

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold,

now please note the end part of this verse, which is important...

broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away,

All four kingdoms were destroyed at the same time! How could this be? It is because a vestige of each one was to be found in the final manifestation of them at Christ's coming. This manifestation is to be found in the first beast of Revelation 13, a composite beast comprising all five parts of the former four beasts. The papacy answers to this manifestaion in every sense, right down to the blasphemies, the persecution of the saints, her relationship to past pagan beliefs, and more. This is why it is explained that each empire would continue for a time, despite their respective authority over the nations being removed. In claiming a fifth kingdom and appointing Daniel 7s beasts to this fifth kingdom is unwarranted.

 

[DaDad]

Hi brakelite,

... his feet part of iron and part of clay.

DD, it is not a fifth kingdom that is divided, it is the fourth kingdom

You are more than welcome to treat Scripture as though it were a buffet line, picking some and disregarding others. However, ALL Scripture is for edification and thus the Daniel 2:45 sequence is part of that Perfection:

Daniel 2
45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE


And to make matters worse, what you discount as "not a fifth kingdom", Scripture explicitly defines it as such:

41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom




But I can certainly understand that your FALSE doctrines take precedence over both Scripture and History, thus you not only discount Scripture, but you also discount History:

... it is not a fifth kingdom that is divided, it is the fourth kingdom of Rome that is divided. And history confirms this as a correct understanding.

Today the world is divided between 3-superpowers, with a 4th "dreadful" One-World-Government on the horizon. And at the advent of this One-World-Government, we should anticipate a confederation of 10 nations:


Current Permanent Membership to the Security Council
1. U.S.
2. U.K.
3. France
4. Russia
5. China

Nominated to Permanent Membership in the Security Council *
6. Germany -- economic power
7. Japan -- economic power
8. Brazil -- regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria -- regional representative for Africa
10. India -- regional representative for the Near East

[SIZE=8pt] *[/SIZE] “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46



But if you choose to follow your doctrines then please do so with caution, for Scripture warns of consequences for false teaching:

James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness.




And finally, if you have an alternate solution to the Intelligent Design sequence, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, then PLEASE present it. But to ignore this passage, is to ignore GOD HIMSELF.

With Best Regards,
DD
PS If one understood that the Image of Metals as conceived by Nebuchadnezzar were the Metopolis model, which all subsequent governments have conformed to, to the point that 18oz soft drinks were OUTLAWED in NYC, then you'd appreciate how Christ will establish a NEW governance model, and the Metropolis model will be as chaff carried by the wind.

 

[shturt678]

Hi brakelite,


You are more than welcome to treat Scripture as though it were a buffet line, picking some and disregarding others. However, ALL Scripture is for edification and thus the Daniel 2:45 sequence is part of that Perfection:

Daniel 2
45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

Thank you for caring again! The "Stone" that was torn loose from the mountain without hands and crushed the "the iron the bronze the clay the silver and the gold" = FOUR Again with strange unanimity it's stated by all older Commentators that the stone signifies the Kingdom of Christ which kind of crushes the FOUR, ie, outlasts them all and conquers them.




And to make matters worse, what you discount as "not a fifth kingdom", Scripture explicitly defines it as such:

41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom


But I can certainly understand that your FALSE doctrines take precedence over both Scripture and History, thus you not only discount Scripture, but you also discount History:



Today the world is divided between 3-superpowers, with a 4th "dreadful" One-World-Government on the horizon. And at the advent of this One-World-Government, we should anticipate a confederation of 10 nations:


Current Permanent Membership to the Security Council
1. U.S.
2. U.K.
3. France
4. Russia
5. China

Nominated to Permanent Membership in the Security Council *
6. Germany -- economic power
7. Japan -- economic power
8. Brazil -- regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria -- regional representative for Africa
10. India -- regional representative for the Near East

[SIZE=8pt] *[/SIZE] “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46



But if you choose to follow your doctrines then please do so with caution, for Scripture warns of consequences for false teaching:

James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness.




And finally, if you have an alternate solution to the Intelligent Design sequence, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, then PLEASE present it. But to ignore this passage, is to ignore GOD HIMSELF.

With Best Regards,
DD

PS If one understood that the Image of Metals as conceived by Nebuchadnezzar were the Metopolis model, which all subsequent governments have conformed to, to the point that 18oz soft drinks were OUTLAWED in NYC, then you'd appreciate how Christ will establish a NEW governance model, and the Metropolis model will be as chaff carried by the wind.

Old Jack

btw brakelite gave us both food for thought,

Appreciate you and your words sir

 

[brakelite]

DD...quote...And finally, if you have an alternate solution to the Intelligent Design sequence, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, then PLEASE present it. But to ignore this passage, is to ignore GOD HIMSELF.

Who said I'm ignoring it? I simply dont give it the importance you seem to place upon it. Eleswhere the order is different. So why should we make such an issue on this particular one, and ignore the others? Besides, the only grounds for believing the actual sequence, that is the words themselves, is divinely inspired, is to also believe that the entire Bible is word inspired. With this I would disagree. The Bible is thought inspired. The priniples, and standards and life lessons are divinely inspired. The specific words, and their sequences etc, are written by the individual author based on the visions etc he receives from God. The authors of the Bible do not aleways agree on how certain events eventuated, nor in some details, thus it can only be the principles these events teach us that are of Intelligent Design.The words of the Bible are those who wrote them, the thoughts and lessons they teach are God's.

 

[DaDad]

Hi brakelite,

I simply dont give it the importance you seem to place upon it..

Once again, ALL Scripture is profitable. Thus you MUST credit GOD with INTENT, in HIS Intelligent Design of that sequence. And if you don't like the inference which I have suggested, then PLEASE provide your own explanation. But to do otherwise, is to IGNORE Scripture.


Daniel 2
45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE


With Best Regards,

 

[shturt678]

Who said I'm ignoring it? I simply dont give it the importance you seem to place upon it. Eleswhere the order is different. So why should we make such an issue on this particular one, and ignore the others? Besides, the only grounds for believing the actual sequence, that is the words themselves, is divinely inspired, is to also believe that the entire Bible is word inspired. With this I would disagree. The Bible is thought inspired.

Absolutely perfect! The Bible is structure of thoughts inspired. This should make your day as it does mine!



The priniples, and standards and life lessons are divinely inspired. The specific words, and their sequences etc, are written by the individual author based on the visions etc he receives from God. The authors of the Bible do not aleways agree on how certain events eventuated, nor in some details, thus it can only be the principles these events teach us that are of Intelligent Design.The words of the Bible are those who wrote them, the thoughts and lessons they teach are God's.

Old Jack

 

[DaDad]

To All,

... I simply dont give it the importance you seem to place upon it.

For those who believe that we can ignore portions of Scripture which are inconvenient, please allow the following texts:

Matt. 5
3 “Blessed are the poor -- now you can walk past the needy without a thought
4 “Blessed are those who mourn -- now you can laugh at a funeral
5 “Blessed are the meek -- now you can take advantage of someone
6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst -- now you can indulge your appetite


But for those who seek the TRUTH of Scripture, please allow me to present and defend the FULL TEXT:

Matt. 5
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Dan. 2
41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom
45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE



With Best Regards,
DD