Even if you understand zech 14 literally you cannot literally get a second coming out of it because it just isn’t there. It says in that day. You have to literally prove that the phrase refers to Christ second coming. There are a number of explanations for “in that day”. I am still waiting for all the evidence for Christ returning to earth. Maybe now you can help. I was told there are dozens of passages. I just want 10. I may even accept 5 that show Christ will stand back on earth.
Amillenialism and Acts 1:11
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I get that but this position you seem to have is representative of a very large group of people. You are not alone and I know someone else may read this.
Just the same, to conglomerate my views with those of others risks incorporating other's views with mine whether they belong or not.
Much love!
Hi CNKW3,
Let's start here.
The judgment of nations, in Joel 3, and Matthew 25 . . . conducted by Jesus? On the earth? At the end of the age?
Much love!
Joel 3 says nothing about Christ coming back to stand or live on earth. It says his voice will sound from Jerusalem. That s exactly what happened at his first coming. The end of Joel 2 is a prophecy about Pentecost. Read acts 2:16-21
Matt 25 does not say Christ is on earth. It says he sits on his throne and judges all nations. It does not say that throne is on earth.
Good start let’s keep going. Thanks
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Why not?
It could . . . does the passage call it a sign? A symbol? Give us the meaning of the symbol?
If not . . . then I'm thinking 12,000 virgin men from 12 tribes of Israel.
Yes, to Jewish Christians. I don't see a conflict.
How would this mean that we shouldn't understand this sealing to happen to an actuall 144,000 people, just like it says?
A way to heaven through the church? Through Jesus, right?
So . . . how does this part bear on the question of 144,000 Israelites being sealed?
Much love!
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Read the whole passage , but I underline His Feet Will Stand....
Zechariah 14:3- 5 " 3 Then the LORD Will Go Out to Fight Against Those nations, as He fights in the day of battle.
4 ON that day HIS FEET WILL STAND on the MOUNT of OLIVES, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of OLIVES WILL BE SPLIT in TWO from East to West, forming a great valley with half the mountain moving to the North and half to the South. 5 You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.…
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Hello
People do not have the ability to discern when there are thousands of years between verses and this can be seen in understanding Zech.14:1-9 which spans a period of three ages or a little longer than 3,000 years.
Zechariah. 14:1-9: -
14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, [ The Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD ]
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity, [ The selling of the people of Jerusalem into Slavery ]
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [ The remanent of Israel, Abraham's descents return in 1948 ]
3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle. [ The judgement of the nations at Armageddon; Jesus coming like a thief. Luke.14:31-32 ]
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, [ The final battle of judgement when Jesus captures the Beast, the False Prophet
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake/Turmoil
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with you/Him.
6 It shall come to pass in that day/at that time
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day [ It shall be at a time, which is known only to the Lord. ]
Which is known to the Lord —
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen [ The start of a new day/the age of Eternity. ]
That it will be light.
8 And in that day/at that time it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be —
"The Lord is one,"
And His name one.
Unless we can see the jumps in time between the verses, we will not necessarily make sense of what we read.
Verses one and two above covers the time that the iniquities of the fathers is visited upon their children and their children's children as prophetically warned in Exodus. 20:4-6 but which has been explained away by scholars as the iniquities being passed from the father down onto the next three descendant generations because the scholars could not see or comprehend the long time span of the visitation of this prophecy.
Isaiah.61:4 also confirms the 20:4-6 prophecy in Exodus and it is repeated four times in the Pentateuch, but the time span their is lost in the manner in which a "technical" translation has been forced onto the original Hebrew text because the original text is speaking of two ages which is around 2,000 years duration, which is so far into the respective future, from the time that was written, even for us today, to be able to comprehend. The translation has converted a finite time period into an infinite period which means that we cannot see how and when it will be fulfilled.
To understand Biblical prophecy we must go back to the original texts and unwrap the "so called scholarly understandings" to reveal God's truths hidden within the original texts in plain sight.
Shalom
People do not have the ability to discern when there are thousands of years between verses and this can be seen in understanding Zech.14:1-9 which spans a period of three ages or a little longer than 3,000 years.
Zechariah. 14:1-9: -
14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, [ The Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD ]
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity, [ The selling of the people of Jerusalem into Slavery ]
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [ The remanent of Israel, Abraham's descents return in 1948 ]
3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle. [ The judgement of the nations at Armageddon; Jesus coming like a thief. Luke.14:31-32 ]
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, [ The final battle of judgement when Jesus captures the Beast, the False Prophet
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
and Satan and dispatches them into the Lake of Fire. ]And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake/Turmoil
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with you/Him.
6 It shall come to pass in that day/at that time
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day [ It shall be at a time, which is known only to the Lord. ]
Which is known to the Lord —
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen [ The start of a new day/the age of Eternity. ]
That it will be light.
8 And in that day/at that time it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be —
"The Lord is one,"
And His name one.
Unless we can see the jumps in time between the verses, we will not necessarily make sense of what we read.
Verses one and two above covers the time that the iniquities of the fathers is visited upon their children and their children's children as prophetically warned in Exodus. 20:4-6 but which has been explained away by scholars as the iniquities being passed from the father down onto the next three descendant generations because the scholars could not see or comprehend the long time span of the visitation of this prophecy.
Isaiah.61:4 also confirms the 20:4-6 prophecy in Exodus and it is repeated four times in the Pentateuch, but the time span their is lost in the manner in which a "technical" translation has been forced onto the original Hebrew text because the original text is speaking of two ages which is around 2,000 years duration, which is so far into the respective future, from the time that was written, even for us today, to be able to comprehend. The translation has converted a finite time period into an infinite period which means that we cannot see how and when it will be fulfilled.
To understand Biblical prophecy we must go back to the original texts and unwrap the "so called scholarly understandings" to reveal God's truths hidden within the original texts in plain sight.
Shalom
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Uh, no. You have posted 3 passages. None of which say what you just said above
if the 144000 are literal then they are standing before a literal lamb. Just like a literal drag
well if the 144000 is literal then they must be in front of a literal lamb. You would probably say....the lamb is Christ. But the text doesn’t say that, you get that from info elsewhere. The 144000 is a representation of the church. A combination of the number 12 and 1000 signifying it’s perfection of Gods holy nation. They are virgins signifying purity.
Read chapter 21 and here is what you find....
The holy city, new Jerusalem.
Prepared as a bride. That is the church. The angel then says...I will show you the bride. (The church)
Twelve gates, twelve angels, twelve tribes, twelve foundations, twelve apostles,
Twelve thousand furlongs,
144 cubits.
City was pure gold
All kinds of precious stones ( what is the church made up of? Lively stones, precious. 1cor 3; 1 pet 1)
This is a picture signifying the church. But you want everything literal.
Joel 3 has already happened
Mt 25 will be at Christ 2nd coming. When all are resurrected they will be separated to their rightful place. You think he’s gonna have the entire world lined up in Palestine waiting their turn? That will be a longgggg line
Yes. His feet did stand on the mount of olives. This was a true prophecy. What you need to underline is where the text says that this is talking about his second coming.
Which one of you said prove there's scripture that says that HIS feet will touch the earth????
That's actually non-sequitor. The 144,000 could be representative or literal, just as the Lamb could be metaphorical or literal.
Either should be determined in it's own right.
As an argument against the 144,000 being literal, it is meaningless.
Jesus could be called the Lamb, and in fact He is called a Lamb in many places.
Is the 144,000 called the gentile church? No, they are called individuals from the tribes of Israel.
But to say that the 144,000 cannot be literal since the Lamb isn't literal, an example would be where John says, behold the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sins of the world. God means God, sins are sins, and Jesus is the Lamb. Scriptures contain both literal and metaphical in the same sentences.
And while you have some fun facts about the new Jerusalem, neither do these tell us that the 144,000, comprised of 12,000 men from each of 12 tribes aren't just that.
Much love!
Are you thinking this will happen like it does in a human court?
Anyway, I can tell from our exchange that you and I read the Bible in much different ways, and will end up at much different conclusions.
Much love!
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