Amillennialism vs premillennialism ......how & why ppl believe different.

[Eternally Grateful]

If the inheritance of the land of Cannan was forever, why are they not still in possession of ALL the promised land that possessed through Joshua?

I showed you this in Lev 26, the final form of discipline

I also showed you what would happen if they repented (they would be restored)

When a promise from God is said to be FOREVER, it can NEVER fail, so why was the nation of Old cast out of the land of Canaan that was given to them FOREVER? Answer, they forsake the Covenant by turning away from God and worshipping false gods and idols, committing great apostasy in the land of promise. READ Joshua 23 and you will see how God kept His promise to the nation of Old regarding the land of Cannan, but the people of the nation did not, but for the remnant according to election of grace!

It has not failed.

But you just proved my point. It must still be in process and not nullified. Because God said forever. with no conditions.

The conditions were given for them to LIVE IN and ENJOY the land. not for ownership.

 

[rwb]

Please once again show where that covenant promise was conditional in the passages I showed you.

You have now made this claim multiple times. But have yet to show where God gave abraham a condition for him and his seed;.

I've already told you to read Joshua chapter 23 and you should understand the words spoken through Joshua proves that obedience and worshipping God alone were and always have been conditions for the nation of Old to keep the land of promise forever.
This is how Joshua 23 ends:

Joshua 23:16 (KJV) When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

There has always been only ONE Covenant of Redemption given to all humanity. The promise of that a SEED (Christ) would come through the loins of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This is the only Covenant God gives to man that is unconditional, being conditioned upon the faithfulness of God alone to save His people through Christ. The Covenant given the seeds of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob regrading the promised land was always dependent upon their faithfulness to God alone. God kept His Covenant promise to them through Joshua, but the nation after the death of Joshua turned away from God and became an abomination to Him.

 

[rwb]

I showed you this in Lev 26, the final form of discipline

I also showed you what would happen if they repented (they would be restored)

Why would they need to repent to be restored if the promised land of Cannan was forever? You know to keep the land required discipline, as you've just said, then you deny what you've said?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I've already told you to read Joshua chapter 23 and you should understand the words spoken through Joshua proves that obedience and worshipping God alone were and always have been conditions for the nation of Old to keep the land of promise forever.
This is how Joshua 23 ends:

God did not make the covenant in Joshua 23.

If you are not willing to look at the covenant given to abraham. The you have no basis to say anyone else is wrong

Joshua 23 is actually answered in Lev 26,

Once again, EVEN after what Joshua said happened. God said if you repent, He will remember the promise.

Joshua 23:16 (KJV) When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

There has always been only ONE Covenant of Redemption given to all humanity.

The promise of land is not a promise of redemption.

Why do you insist on making the land covenant a covenant of salvation? if this was true, Every jew ever born into that covenant would be saved.

The promise of that a SEED (Christ) would come through the loins of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This is the only Covenant God gives to man that is unconditional, being conditioned upon the faithfulness of God alone to save His people through Christ. The Covenant given the seeds of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob regrading the promised land was always dependent upon their faithfulness to God alone. God kept His Covenant promise to them through Joshua, but the nation after the death of Joshua turned away from God and became an abomination to Him.

Yet I showed you in Gen 12 15 and 17 where God gave the land as an unconditional eternal promise to his seed. the promise to make him a great nation.

Not sure what you are unable to see there..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why would they need to repent to be restored if the promised land of Cannan was forever? You know to keep the land required discipline, as you've just said, then you deny what you've said?

I gave you an example a week ago. You blocked it off and silly

I also showed you in Lev 26 that if they disobeyed. they would be defeated. their cities cut down, their high places destroyed. and a foreigner will enjoy her land.

Until she repented.

If it was done (as you say) there is no need for God to say if they repent he will remember the land he will remember his promise. because there is no more promise

 

[Eternally Grateful]

ps. I have not even started to go over the many OT prophets who says she will repent and she will be restored..at a later date

 

[rwb]

God did not make the covenant in Joshua 23.

If you are not willing to look at the covenant given to abraham. The you have no basis to say anyone else is wrong

Joshua 23 is actually answered in Lev 26,

Once again, EVEN after what Joshua said happened. God said if you repent, He will remember the promise.

EG, surely you can see it's the same Covenant God made with Israel of Old through Abraham regarding the land of Cannan? If you can't see that Joshua led them into the land of promise, and reiterates to them that as long as they remained faithful they would possess the land forever, then you will never be able to understand the Covenant promise God made to the natural biological seeds (many) of Abraham. The fact that they no longer possess the land proves they did not remain faithful. How do you interpret 'everlasting'? Everlasting means possession of the land without end once they had inherited it through Joshua. Since they did not continue to possess the land they inherited in the days of Joshua, the everlasting promise for the land in Cannan is lost to them forever. Now the everlasting Covenant to those of Israel who turn to Christ in faith, and Gentiles of faith with them is that we shall inherit the whole new earth.

You seem to believe that since God forgave them again and again, and even sent prophets and judges to turn their hearts back to Him that His mercies toward them would never end. AD 70 says something else. The mercy of God toward them as His representation of the Kingdom of God on earth came to its final end. Since the advent of Christ Jews as well as Gentiles who are saved by grace through faith may still come into the Covenant of Redemption by grace through faith IF they do not remain in unbelief and turn to Christ to be saved. But if any are focused on inheriting again the promised land of Cannan of Old, they are deceived and under the curses and death God promised would come to them who are unfaithful and do not know Christ.

Why do you insist on making the land covenant a covenant of salvation? if this was true, Every jew ever born into that covenant would be saved.

I've never said the covenant God made with the natural biological seeds of Abraham is the Covenant of Redemption that God gave to mankind. Never does God say that every Jew born into the natural biological seeds of Abraham would be saved according to ethnicity. The land covenant to the biological seeds of Abraham was temporary because it was conditioned upon their faithfulness to God. The Covenant of Redemption which you confuse for the conditional covenant, is unconditional because it is dependent upon the faithfulness of God alone!

The doctrine of Dispensational Premillennialism is a doctrine of deception!!

 

[rwb]

ps. I have not even started to go over the many OT prophets who says she will repent and she will be restored..at a later date

Unless you read the prophets of Old through the light of the New Testament you will never be able to understand that which is of old and written in shadow, and symbolism. Do you know the Old Testament Prophets foretell of the Messiah/Redeemer who would come, the same One the Levitical Law proves that none but He Who was to come would fulfill. Yet fulfill the Old Covenant nation must, if they desired to be saved through their obedience to the Law and to keep the promised land forever.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG, surely you can see it's the same Covenant God made with Israel of Old through Abraham regarding the land of Cannan? If you can't see that Joshua led them into the land of promise, and reiterates to them that as long as they remained faithful they would possess the land forever, then you will never be able to understand the Covenant promise God made to the natural biological seeds (many) of Abraham.

I can see it

I also see That God promised it to them forever. with NO specifications (you still have not shown me in Gen 12 15 and 17 where they are told they must behave or they would lose it)

i also see that lev 26 fits right in with Joshua 23

And I understand the covenant promise, In you shall all the nations be blessed.. Which has NOTHING to do with land. it has to do with Christ.

The world is not blessed because of land, it is blessed because a nation gave birth to Christ while they were slaves to rome..

The fact that they no longer possess the land proves they did not remain faithful.

No argument

again Lev 26 shows this..

But it also shows what will happen if they repent

How do you interpret 'everlasting'? Everlasting means possession of the land without end once they had inherited it through Joshua. Since they did not continue to possess the land they inherited in the days of Joshua, the everlasting promise for the land in Cannan is lost to them forever. Now the everlasting Covenant to those of Israel who turn to Christ in faith, and Gentiles of faith with them is that we shall inherit the whole new earth.

How do you explain that the land was abrahams, even though for over 400 years they would not possess it..

Yet that is exactly what God told Abraham..

You seem to believe that since God forgave them again and again, and even sent prophets and judges to turn their hearts back to Him that His mercies toward them would never end. AD 70 says something else. The mercy of God toward them as His representation of the Kingdom of God on earth came to its final end. Since the advent of Christ Jews as well as Gentiles who are saved by grace through faith may still come into the Covenant of Redemption by grace through faith IF they do not remain in unbelief and turn to Christ to be saved. But if any are focused on inheriting again the promised land of Cannan of Old, they are deceived and under the curses and death God promised would come to them who are unfaithful and do not know Christ.

No,

I believe that God keeps his promises. When he said he gave someone a gift forever. he means it.

Again, If he will not keep his promise to them, i have no assurance he will keep his promise to me..

Do you believe you have the gift of salvation forever?

I've never said the covenant God made with the natural biological seeds of Abraham is the Covenant of Redemption that God gave to mankind. Never does God say that every Jew born into the natural biological seeds of Abraham would be saved according to ethnicity. The land covenant to the biological seeds of Abraham was temporary because it was conditioned upon their faithfulness to God. The Covenant of Redemption which you confuse for the conditional covenant, is unconditional because it is dependent upon the faithfulness of God alone!

The land promise is FOREVER..

The doctrine of Dispensational Premillennialism is a doctrine of deception!!

The doctrine of amillenialism is not only antisemitic. it denies the promise of God. It comes from the bishop of Rome and is rooted in their hate of Israel. and their belief that the church replaced israel. hence why it is called replacement theology.

If your going to get out of line by attacking my belief. expect it to come back at you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Unless you read the prophets of Old through the light of the New Testament you will never be able to understand that which is of old and written in shadow, and symbolism. Do you know the Old Testament Prophets foretell of the Messiah/Redeemer who would come, the same One the Levitical Law proves that none but He Who was to come would fulfill. Yet fulfill the Old Covenant nation must, if they desired to be saved through their obedience to the Law and to keep the promised land forever.

Prophecy is not shadow and symbolic.

It must be literally translated

Unless you learn to interpret it literally, you will never understand the meaning of prophecy.

You are getting off topic and starting to attack based on foolishness..

This is how these topics get out of line, and conversation ceases.

Please show me in the words God gave to abraham where the promise of land he called eternal. was conditional.

 

[rwb]

I also see That God promised it to them forever. with NO specifications (you still have not shown me in Gen 12 15 and 17 where they are told they must behave or they would lose it)

Since this seems to be all you really have to stand on, and you keep repeating it, perhaps you can explain how you define forever? Because it is my belief that when God makes an unconditional promise that is forever it does NOT mean we have it one day, and it's gone the next. For that reason God said to Abraham "the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy SEED for ever".

Genesis 12:7 (KJV) And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Genesis 13:15 (KJV) For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Genesis 12:7 (KJV) And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Here is the promise of God to Abraham and his SEED and all who come from the Seed that is Christ. The promise God made to Abraham's biological seeds was to give them the land of Cannan, and they could have remained on the land for ever only for as long as they remained faithful unto God. The same promise given to Adam and Eve. If they had obeyed God and not taken of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they could have lived in an undefiled earth forever. But they did NOT obey God and as a result of their disobedience the earth and every living thing upon it is destined to sin and death.

Here is how the Hebrew word for ever is defined. You can see for yourself that when God says for ever it means it can NEVER begin and then end, then begin again. It is for that reason that God blocked the way to the tree of life in the Garden of Eden, because if man ate of the tree of life in the middle of the garden after sin entered creation, man would have lived for ever in a world that from the fall belonged to Satan where evil would be their way of life that would never end. If man ate of the tree of life after the fall, their fate of living in a cruel and evil world defiled by sin would be never ending. In the same way the promise of God to Abraham and his SEED is never ending when all who are of faith inherit the whole new earth it will be our never-ending home. A far greater promise than the promise given to Abraham's biological seeds that could never be obedient to keep God's Law and Commandments. This too was that they would know of their need for a Savior/Redeemer and believe the law that pointed to Him and the prophets that foretell of His coming.

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5769. עוֹלָם owlam (ʻôwlâm)
Search for H5769 in KJVSL; in KJV.
עוֹלָם ʻôwlâm, o-lawm'
or עֹלָם ʻôlâm; from H5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:—alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-)) ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

Genesis 3:22 (KJV) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 

[rwb]

Prophecy is not shadow and symbolic.

It must be literally translated

Unless you learn to interpret it literally, you will never understand the meaning of prophecy.

You are getting off topic and starting to attack based on foolishness..

This is how these topics get out of line, and conversation ceases.

Please show me in the words God gave to abraham where the promise of land he called eternal. was conditional.

The only foolishness I've read so far is a lack of understanding what promises of God for ever means! If you understood what forever means, then you would not continue to argue the land of Cannan belongs exclusively to Israel of Old after God promised to drive them from the land when they turned away from Him. Nowhere in Scripture does God say He would give the land in Cannan back to them again if they returned to Him. The only hope Israel of Old as well as all people upon the earth have is found in Christ alone. And through faith in Him His people shall inherit not only the land called Cannan, but the whole new earth. And it will truly be our FOREVER, world without end. AMEN!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Since this seems to be all you really have to stand on, and you keep repeating it, perhaps you can explain how you define forever?

Forever, everlasting, Never ending, Without end.

Yes, i stand on the word. and What God said.

Because it is my belief that when God makes an unconditional promise that is forever it does NOT mean we have it one day, and it's gone the next. For that reason God said to Abraham "the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy SEED for ever".

Yet. you are saying it is here one day, and gone the next.

Even though lev 26 says otherwise.

Genesis 12:7 (KJV) And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Genesis 13:15 (KJV) For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Genesis 12:7 (KJV) And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Here is the promise of God to Abraham and his SEED and all who come from the Seed that is Christ. The promise God made to Abraham's biological seeds was to give them the land of Cannan, and they could have remained on the land for ever only for as long as they remained faithful unto God. The same promise given to Adam and Eve. If they had obeyed God and not taken of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they could have lived in an undefiled earth forever. But they did NOT obey God and as a result of their disobedience the earth and every living thing upon it is destined to sin and death.

This is in error. He gave it only to abraham, isaac and jacob.

If it was given to all who are in christ. why are we not in canaan now? What is cannan at war today? Why is it christians, jews and muslims all try to lay claim.

Did God make a mistake?

Here is how the Hebrew word for ever is defined. You can see for yourself that when God says for ever it means it can NEVER begin and then end, then begin again. It is for that reason that God blocked the way to the tree of life in the Garden of Eden, because if man ate of the tree of life in the middle of the garden after sin entered creation, man would have lived for ever in a world that from the fall belonged to Satan where evil would be their way of life that would never end. If man ate of the tree of life after the fall, their fate of living in a cruel and evil world defiled by sin would be never ending. In the same way the promise of God to Abraham and his SEED is never ending when all who are of faith inherit the whole new earth it will be our never-ending home. A far greater promise than the promise given to Abraham's biological seeds that could never be obedient to keep God's Law and Commandments. This too was that they would know of their need for a Savior/Redeemer and believe the law that pointed to Him and the prophets that foretell of His coming.

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5769. עוֹלָם owlam (ʻôwlâm)
Search for H5769 in KJVSL; in KJV.
עוֹלָם ʻôwlâm, o-lawm'
or עֹלָם ʻôlâm; from H5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:—alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-)) ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

Genesis 3:22 (KJV) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Once again

Let me help you/. You seem to be struggling to understand what I am asking for.

In Gen 12, 15 and 127, God made a covenant with abraham, That covenant is binding.

In this covenant, and agreement between God and abraham, He said to abraham

1. Go to a land I will show you
2. I will make you a great nation
3. I will make your name great (it was changed to abraham)
4. i will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you
5. In you (your seed, or christ) shall all nations of the world be blessed.
6. You will not see it. You will rest with your fathers
7. Your descendants will be strangers in a land not there’s (Egypt)
8. They will leave with many great possessions (fulfilled)
9. His descendents will possess the land (fulfilled)
10. The covenant is between God and Abraham
11. God will make him the father of many nations (fulfilled)
12. the land he promised his descendents will be theirs forever. Through all their generations. For all time

You have not refuted this list. so I assume you agree with it.

(ps. God said forever, through all their generations..

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

This would refute that there is possibly an end. All equals all)

What is missing, Is the terms you want me to add to Gods words

"Forever. AS LONG as you and your descendents obey"

its not there. When you make a covenant, You add terms to the agreement, you say as long as you do this. I will keep my promise. If you fail. the covenant is broken and it ends.

No place in these passages does God tell abraham this to be a condition.

So yes, I will stand on the word of God..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The only foolishness I've read so far is a lack of understanding what promises of God for ever means! If you understood what forever means, then you would not continue to argue the land of Cannan belongs exclusively to Israel of Old after God promised to drive them from the land when they turned away from Him. Nowhere in Scripture does God say He would give the land in Cannan back to them again if they returned to Him. The only hope Israel of Old as well as all people upon the earth have is found in Christ alone. And through faith in Him His people shall inherit not only the land called Cannan, but the whole new earth. And it will truly be our FOREVER, world without end. AMEN!

The lack of understanding is not on me my friend

You can;t show me where God told Abraham this land is there's ONLY if they continue to obey\

You argue that since Israel does not possess the land. it is done and not theirs. Yet for 400 years after God gave it to Abraham, they did not possess it. yet you refuse to acknowledge this fact refutes your argument

You refuse to acknowledge the land covenant was made to Abraham and his children, and has nothing to do with our redemption.

Anyway, I think we have run its course.. You did what those who believe like you always do. You stop talking about the word and start to attack and name call and do anything but talk about the word.

Thank you for once again proving me right.

PS. I am not arguing agianst amil. I could care less about Amil the doctrine.

I am arguing against the belief that God does not keep his promises..

You are arguing against dispensationalism because some of your teachers told you how evil it was.

I recommend you stop arguing against a doctrine, and just look to the word.

 

[rwb]

Let me help you/. You seem to be struggling to understand what I am asking for.

Sorry EG, but I find you are so lacking in understanding even something as simple as the meaning of what God means when He says something is 'everlasting', that you are without ability to help me or anyone else to understand the everlasting promise given to Abraham through his SEED (Christ) that shall be the inheritors of the whole new earth. You're so focused/preoccupied on the physical nation of Israel of Old that you cannot see that the promises of God are now being spiritually fulfilled through Christ, and that people of faith now have become part of this unconditional promise of everlasting life on the everlasting new earth.

If it was given to all who are in christ. why are we not in canaan now? What is cannan at war today? Why is it christians, jews and muslims all try to lay claim.

Believers now are! While you're focused on the physical land that cannot be everlasting because it too shall be burned up, that you cannot understand all who are faith in Christ have already inherited the unconditional promised land. Where we are now spiritually alive in the heavenly Jerusalem. The only ones who shall inherit the promises of God are all whether Jew or Gentile that belong to the "Israel of God." Not an ethnic people, but ALL people of faith.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Galatians 6:14-16 (KJV) But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[rwb]

You argue that since Israel does not possess the land. it is done and not theirs. Yet for 400 years after God gave it to Abraham, they did not possess it. yet you refuse to acknowledge this fact refutes your argument

This makes no sense! How could a people the biological seeds of Abraham receive the land of promise before God told Abraham they would?

Genesis 15:15-16 (KJV) And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

This is in error. He gave it only to abraham, isaac and jacob.

If it was given to all who are in christ. why are we not in canaan now? What is cannan at war today? Why is it christians, jews and muslims all try to lay claim.

Did God make a mistake?

God only made a mistake if your doctrine is true! You continue to confuse the everlasting unconditional promise of God to all people of faith, with the conditional covenant God gave to Abraham's biological seeds that would be everlasting as long as they remained faithful to God. Since history shows us they did not, they forfeit the covenant and were driven from the physical land of Cannan.

The everlasting Covenant was to Abraham and all that shall be of Abraham's faith through His SEED that is Christ. People of the faith of Father Abraham aren't looking to receive a land that cannot be everlasting! We look for inheritance of the new earth where there shall be no more sin, no more sorrow, that will be FOREVER!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sorry EG, but I find you are so lacking in understanding even something as simple as the meaning of what God means when He says something is 'everlasting', that you are without ability to help me or anyone else to understand the everlasting promise given to Abraham through his SEED (Christ) that shall be the inheritors of the whole new earth. You're so focused/preoccupied on the physical nation of Israel of Old that you cannot see that the promises of God are now being spiritually fulfilled through Christ, and that people of faith now have become part of this unconditional promise of everlasting life on the everlasting new earth.

it’s time to stop

you are unable to answer me, your in attack mode because you cannot answer questions now

you can not show me where God made any demands that will cause his promise to be null and void, because it is not there

i will pray for you

good day

 

[L.A.M.B.]

it’s time to stop

you are unable to answer me, your in attack mode because you cannot answer questions now

you can not show me where God made any demands that will cause his promise to be null and void, because it is not there

i will pray for you

good day

Is it also time to close this thread ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is it also time to close this thread ?

since no one else has responded. Its sad to say but yes.. I was really looking forward to hearing others views..

 

[L.A.M.B.]

since no one else has responded. Its sad to say but yes.. I was really looking forward to hearing others views..

Yes, as was I .
Seems the fight is about catholism, adventist, and what is salvation, aka reconciliation, aka " born again"!

Go figure.
What's the flavour of the month gonna be in February?

Thank you & rwb for being the forefront contenders.

Hope it's all about LOVE; God's to man, man's to God and all of humanity towards each other