Amillennialism vs premillennialism ......how & why ppl believe different.
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Eternally Grateful
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Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. Forfeiting the use is the same as forfeiting the inheritance. They would keep forever IF they obeyed or be cut off when they did not. That has always from the beginning been whole Covenant promise to Israel of old regarding the promised land of Cannan.
The land promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not land limited to the land of Cannan. Notice in Lev 26 God says if they repented and returned to Him He would remember the Covenant He made specifically with Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham. AND then He would also remember the land. The Covenant promise harkens back to Gen when God spoke of the Covenant to Jacob through a dream. Which is the same Covenant God made through Abraham. God makes the Covenant promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that would come through the SEED (Christ) that came from their loins. The promise is not only for the physical land of Cannan that was given to the twelve tribes of Israel forever if they remained faithful to God, but the greater Covenant promise is also that through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Christ would be born, and all people throughout the whole earth who are blessed through Christ according to grace through faith shall without fail inherit the whole new earth.
Genesis 28:13-15 (KJV) And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
Genesis 13:14-16 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Leviticus 26:40-46 (KJV) If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes. And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD. These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
The nation of Israel fully received every promise regarding the land of Cannan that could have been theirs forever. But the only way it would have belonged to them forever is if they remained faithful to God alone. You are confusing the Covenant made with the natural, biological seeds of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, with the Covenant promise of the whole new earth that would come through Christ, the supernatural SEED of promise to whosoever is supernaturally born again through Christ.
Galatians 4:22-26 (KJV) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
One way that Premillennialism causes contradiction is saying there will be one thousand more years of time given this earth after Christ comes again. Scripture tells us that at the second coming of Christ this earth and everything in it shall be burned up. Premillennialism cannot reconcile how there can be one thousand more years of time for this earth after Christ returns. Understanding the problem, they typically say that when Christ comes again, He doesn't come down to the earth but instead raptures the Christ up to meet Him in the air, and then after one thousand years of having a physical Kingdom of God on this earth Christ will come back to earth again. This ignores Christ telling us the Kingdom of God is not of this world, and that it cannot be visibly seen because it is within you. This briefly shows some of the contradiction and inconsistencies forced into the Bible through the doctrine of Premillennialism.
That isn't true LAMB. The topic is Amil vs Premil. Understanding the Covenant of Redemption and who it was given to and who would be benefactors of the Covenant of Redemption through Christ is at the very heart of the differences between these two eschatological points of view. Premillennialism, more specifically dispensational Premillennialism believes there are still unfulfilled promises from God to come to the nation of Israel. Amillennialism argues that Israel since the advent of Christ coming to earth argues that all the promises God gave to the natural seeds of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have already been fulfilled and now it doesn't matter what nation, tribe, kiindred or tongue because in Christ we are all equally of Christ, called Christians.
I very much appreciate your replies EG. Because you come from a Premil POV where the Covenant of God to both the natural seeds of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as well as the supernatural SEED (Christ) that came through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to all who are supernaturally called "Israel of God" through salvation. The Covenants God says would come through these three is very much determined by which pov Amil or Premil one believes.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I would agree if Lev 26 did not say the opposite. Even Daniel understood it. When he prayed a prayer of repentance in dan 9 and used Gods promise to Remember the promise and the land
Please show these words “if they obeyed or cut off when they did not”in Gen 12 15 and 17 when God made the promise to Abraham
if it did. God would have said so when he made the promise.
He did not say if you do this, I will do that. He said I GIVE..
The abrahamic covenant was unconditional. Only the mosaic was conditional. But the mosaic did not over rule the Abrahamic.
The land was given to Abraham, and his descendent as an eternal gift throughout all their generations..
Again, these are two parts of the same covenant.
Again, show me the words if they remain faithful in genesis 12 15 and 17
Again, Show me THESE WORDS IN GEN 12, 15 AND 16
you keep adding words to the covenant that are not found. And was not required of abraham, Isaac jacob or their 12 sons.
its a GIFT OF GOD.. Gods gift do not require something from us.. Only a reward, or a wage requires something of us. it is called a covenant between two people where the one said says I will agree do do this, as long as you agree to do that, if ONE side breaks the covenant, then the covenant is null and void
again. Show me Israel’s part of the covenant in genesis.
No I am not. You are.
God never promised me a plot of land in the Middle East.
He promised me if I have the faith of abraham concerning the promise of God through his sin, i will have a far greater inheritance.
i do not replacer Israel
Again, You are mixing two parts of a covenant
the promise of land has nothing to do with anyones salvation, be it jew or gentile.
Your making the same mistake the jews made, thinking that promise assured them salvation. They ended up crucifying christ because he said they were in error.
text the OT prophets state he will rule with a rod of iron.. He will rule on Davids throne (in fulfilment of the Davidic covenant) and that his rule through israel will prove he is the one true God
Whther you believe it is 1000 years or a million years or whatever, you can’t deny the fact he will rule
That is not true, it says the dead will be so great the birds will eat the flesh for over a year. That just one example.
it says the earth will be restored. The lion and lamb will sleep together. The child and the serpent will be together they will live in harmony, it says There will be birth, and will be death, and that even their will be punishment
I just did
I do not know where you get these ideas. But all of this is not true
It says there will be a ressurection. We wil be caught up (raptured) with him in the air
it says he will return, and everyone will see him he will come wiht his armies, and he will destroy evil as he destroyed the final gentile kingdom. it says THEN Satan will be bound for a thousand year. Where he can not decieve the nations. But after the thousand years. He will be released. And he will gather an armie, and THEN Christ will destroy that army, Then he will destroy this earth and a new heavens.
that is the one thing I hate about these doctrinal discussions. You have people who say they know what the other believes, then on a constant bases. You see they only have bits and peace’s and do not have the whole truth.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
This is not about the covenant of redemption
This is about the covenant between God and one nation.
As for the promises being fulfilled
When I say I give you something forever. That promise can only be fulfilled when forever ends. Ad long as forever has not ended. That promise is still binding.
Or as i shared earlier. The one who made the promise broke his promise
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I appreciate your replies also.
But again, I think you have the wrong premise
The abrahamic covenant is divided in many parts
many nations will come through you. You will be father of many nations…Is one aspect, this is true Abraham had many children who became nations
he will make him a great nation
he will give him land
through him (Christ) shall all nations be blessed
i will bless them who bless you and curse them who curse you
only one aspect of this covenant concerns salvation or redemption
The Covenant God gave mankind through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob of the SEED (Christ) that would come is NOT divided into many parts. That is the same Covenant God spoke after A&E disobeyed Him and brought sin and death through sin to creation.
Genesis 3:14-15 (KJV) And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
It's also the Covenant God gave to mankind after the flood in the days of Noah.
Genesis 6:17-18 (KJV) And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
Genesis 9:16-17 (KJV) And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
The same everlasting Covenant between God and all mankind through the SEED (Christ) of His only begotten Son was spoken also to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You seem not to make any distinction between the conditional Covenant God made with the biological seeds (many) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob conditioned upon the faithfulness of God AND the faithfulness of the physical descendants called Israel of Old. As long as the nation of Old was faithful to the conditional Covenant they would receive long life and blessings from God. But when they turned away from God, forsaking the Covenant they received cursing's and death, and God drove them from the physical land of promise.
The Covenant God made with the biological seeds called Israel of Old was conditioned upon faithfulness to the Covenant. The land of promise could have been theirs until they finally went to far and rejected Christ, become altogether desolate unto God. Which is why Christ tells them that God has rejected the nation, and given the spiritual Kingdom of God to a chosen generation, a holy people unto God.
1 Peter 2:6-10 (KJV) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
1 Peter 2:10-12 (KJV) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
No you did not take over. I knew this was a hard & harsh topic.
The subject goes beyond these 2 headings of A or Pre.
I however do not think there will be an agreement between parties.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Then why are you unable to show this when god gave this promise to abraham first in gen 12
12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Go to a land i will show you and I will make these promises to you
1. if you do, i will make you a great nation
2. I will make your name great
3. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you
4, In you (christ) shall all nations of the world be blessed.
4. Different promises. Only once concerns all the nations. And the only thing abraham had to do was leave and go (ps. He did not do exactly as God told him to do. Yet God kept his promise anyway)
yet no conditions that he or his descendants of that great nation in order for them to be that great nation or keep the land as you keep proposing
gen 15:
7 Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”
Notice. The land was given to ABRAHAM.. it is HIS..
Yet God continues
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror andgreat darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that isnot theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall [d]go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
We see here again a few promises
1. His descendents will be strangers in a land that is not theirs (Egypt)
2. after 400 years they will leave with great wealth (fulfilled)
3. Abraham will not see this happen
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
1. Again another promise, I give your descendants this land.
2. Again, NO demand that they must obey or they will lose the land, IT IS A GIFT
Gen 17:
2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you,
It’s a covenant between God and abraham. not mankind. thats why it is called the abrahamic covenant.
and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you
Again, His covenant is with abraham, He shall be the father of many. Nations. Said not once but three times. he even changed his name permanently to Abraham.
that is one aspect of the covenant like I showed you
. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
Seperate from the first part. Once again, he said he makes this covenant between god, Abraham and his descendents through their generations FOREVER. Just like he said in Gen 15.
Notice.. He did nto say as long as abraham obeyed,and he did not say as long as they obeyed. He said it is an eternal GIFT.
so three chapters, Three times. Three seperate visits from God where he makes specific promises to abraham
1. Go to a land I will show you
2. I will make you a great nation
3. I will make your name great (it was changed to abraham)
4. i will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you
5. In you (christ) shall all nations of the world be blessed.
6. You will not see it. You will rest with your fathers
7. Your descendants will be strangers in a land not there’s (Egypt)
8. They will leave with many great possessions (fulfilled)
9. His descendents will possess the land (fulfilled)
10. The covenant is between God and Abraham
11. God will make him the father of many nations (fulfilled)
12. the land he promised his descendents will be theirs forever. Through all their generations. For all time
in non of these passages is any command given that would cause them to lose it if they did not obey. it was a gift between God and Abraham, it belongs to him, and his descendents FOREVER.
It is not conditional.. That is false
once again, if God breaks his promise to them, he can not be trusted, with any promise he makes us
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I don’t either.. But I liked how you said we need to see what each other believes and why.. maybe could help us
I used to be avid pre-trigger. Because of discussions like this. I question that belief now.. Not saying I do not believe it. Just that i question it..
so it can happen.. we can change views. i know many people who have
I think the Spirit of God flows between brethren when they reason in peace and love and "nothing" is impossible with God!
Broadening or enhancing our understanding of God is the work of the Spirit. We must be willing to submit to him in all things especially our own understanding!
God said to Abram "unto they seed will I give this land". This before there was a nation of twelve tribes called Israel. Why didn't God say unto your seed(s) as many if the promise would be only to Abram's biological seeds? God said seed, as one seed for a reason. The blessing through Abram from the beginning was unto all families of the earth. The Seed (Christ) of promise is not the biological offspring of Abraham, even though God would make a conditional Covenant regarding the land of Cannan with them also. But the unconditional promise is through the SEED of Christ. That is the only unconditional promise given and it is inclusive of all humanity. Whosoever would be saved through the SEED of promise would inherit the whole new earth.
Genesis 12:3 (KJV) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Genesis 12:7 (KJV) And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Galatians 3:16 (KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
The conditional promise God gave to Abraham and his seeds, as many was NEVER an unconditional promise, therefore God did exactly as He warned the nation of Old He would do when the nation broke the Covenant by worshipping and serving the gods of the nations around them and devoted themselves to idolatry, bringing the wrath of God down upon themselves. They should have brought the Light of God unto all nations, but instead they saw only themselves worthy of salvation, so God, as a nation, has utterly rejected them, except for the remnant according to election of grace, which has always been found in Israel's history.
The problem is that there is only one truth. Both positions could be wrong, but since they are opposed to each other, only one, if either can be truth. Sadly, Biblical truth shall always bring DIVISION. That's why Christ says when He came into this world with the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, "I came not to send peace, but a sword."
Matthew 10:34-36 (KJV) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
If the inheritance of the land of Cannan was forever, why are they not still in possession of ALL the promised land that possessed through Joshua? When a promise from God is said to be FOREVER, it can NEVER fail, so why was the nation of Old cast out of the land of Canaan that was given to them FOREVER? Answer, they forsake the Covenant by turning away from God and worshipping false gods and idols, committing great apostasy in the land of promise. READ Joshua 23 and you will see how God kept His promise to the nation of Old regarding the land of Cannan, but the people of the nation did not, but for the remnant according to election of grace!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
AmenI think the Spirit of God flows between brethren when they reason in peace and love and "nothing" is impossible with God!
Broadening or enhancing our understanding of God is the work of the Spirit. We must be willing to submit to him in all things especially our own understanding!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yes you are correct,
Abraham was to to be the father of many nations. Many seeds.
But he only gave the land promise to one seed.
Which seed?
The passage says, It Isaac shal your seed be (not Ishmael or the other sons)
he did not give the land to anyone bu through Abraham Isaac and Jacob.. this is written multiple times all over the OT.
The blessing of all the nations will be blessed was to all the families of the world.. Not the promise of land.
Please once again show where that covenant promise was conditional in the passages I showed you.
You have now made this claim multiple times. But have yet to show where God gave abraham a condition for him and his seed;.
Once again.
Your talking about 1 aspect of the promise
I showed 12 different parts of the promise..
Why are you not seeing this, and why can you not look in the passages I posted and have repeatedly asked you for. to show me the condition?
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