Amillennialism

[keras]

Hi Keras, No I haven't changed my position, I've always been pre-wrath which is not the same as pre-trib.

Thanks for that, but the wrath of God commences at the Sixth Seal, Revelation 6:16 and is completed after the last plague. Revelation 15:1 This, of course includes all the Gt Trib. So do you think a removal of the 'Church' must happen before the Sixth Seal? If so, where does scripture say that?
Thinking that all of God's wrath happens at the Return is not how the glorious Return is described.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Keras, I believe the signs of the 6th seal will herald His return for the rapture per Luke 21:28. I believe our arrival in heaven is depicted in Rev. 7:9. I don't believe the 6th seal is part of the wrath just the final warning that the wrath of the Lamb is about to begin with the trumpets and will conclude with the wrath of God with the vials.

 

[keras]

Interesting.
The whole thing about a rapture to heaven is why would God do it ?
We are earth creatures, made by Him to live here. He has angels to serve Him in heaven and eventually God Himself will come to dwell on earth. Rev 21:3
Your quote of Luke 21:28 is immediatly preceeded by the Return, so it doesn't apply to a pre-wrath rapture. But verses 25-26 describe the Sixth Seal event, that will 'come upon everyone, the whole world over'. v 34
Many scriptures say we must face trials and testing, so the contention that we won't experience God's wrath is invalid.

Rev 7:9 is an earthly scene, as is made clear by Rev 7:1-3. There is no change of location anywhere in that chapter. The great tribulation, or ordeal, mentioned in v 14, refers to the just happened Sixth Seal disaster.

 

[Naomi25]

I have been away for a while and have just read all of this thread.
All posters have made good points and except for blessedhope's inappropriate comments, are worthwhile discussion.
I did think that you, Trekson were a pre-tribber and I am happy see you are not. Did you change your belief?

The whole idea of the Kingdom now, is obviously wrong, as we await the Return of Jesus to literally reign for a literal 1000 years. Any other interpretation is making plain scripture mean something else. For this Church age, we have the promise of our citizenship - Philippians 3:20, but our King is yet to take up His reign on earth.

Re the events of the Sixth Seal, there is a means whereby all that is prophesied there and in many other prophesies about a terrible judgement/punishment by fire from the heavens will be literally fulfilled. It is a Coronal mass Ejection, an explosion of the sun. Secular scientists warn of this possibility/probability and the many Bible prophesies describe it exactly. Isaiah 30:26 and Psalm 50:1-4 say that God will use the sun on His Day of wrath.
​This sudden and shocking worldwide disaster will set the stage for all the prophesied end time events, leading to the glorious Return.

Hi Keras! Just wanted to chat over the "the idea of the Kingdom now, is obviously wrong' statement you said above. Just wondering how you respond to these passages in light of that.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” (John 18:36 ESV)

...that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:20-23 ESV)

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Matthew 28:18 ESV)

It seems to me that these passages, and others, suggest that the 'Kingdom' that Christ inaugurated was not the one the Jews had in mind... it was not of this world. They also tell us that Christ is currently ruling and reigning. I was just wondering how you took the above scriptures?
Thanks!

 

[Trekson]

Hi Keras, We've been over this a few times and I don't want to go through the whole debate again but I will answer your questions.

Your words: "The whole thing about a rapture to heaven is why would God do it?"

1. Because we are not appointed to wrath.
2. To keep His promise. See John 14:2-3

Your words: "We are earth creatures, made by Him to live here. He has angels to serve Him in heaven and eventually God Himself will come to dwell on earth. Rev 21:3"

While we are on earth with our mortal bodies we are earthly but when we receive our glorified, incorruptible bodies we will move beyond being merely "earth creatures". Our home will be wherever Christ is. When He is in heaven, our home will be there, when He comes to earth our home may be here or perhaps both until the NJ comes.


Your words: "Your quote of Luke 21:28 is immediatly preceeded by the Return, so it doesn't apply to a pre-wrath rapture. But verses 25-26 describe the Sixth Seal event, that will 'come upon everyone, the whole world over'. v 34
Many scriptures say we must face trials and testing, so the contention that we won't experience God's wrath is invalid."

The return is His return for the rapture. The Second Coming is different. The first to gather the saints, the second to judge the wicked. If you read the description in Matt. 24:29-31 and then Acts 1:11 you will see they are speaking of the same event but when you read Rev. 19:11-16 you get a completely different picture. Why? Because they are separate events! Yes, I do believe we will be here for the Great Trib but that is also a separate event apart from the wrath of the Lamb (trumpets) and God's wrath (vials). The rapture of the church ends the Great Trib allowing judgment/wrath to commence.

Your words: "Rev 7:9 is an earthly scene, as is made clear by Rev 7:1-3. There is no change of location anywhere in that chapter. The great tribulation, or ordeal, mentioned in v 14, refers to the just happened Sixth Seal disaster."

Actually there is a location change. The "numbered" 144,000 Jews are a completely different group than the "multitude which no man could number." Where is that group located? Before the throne! The same throne as Rev. 5:9!! At this point the physical second coming of Christ is still a few years away but less than seven.

 

[keras]

Hi Trekson, it would be nice to have a rational and reasoned discussion.

Re the Kingdom: The parable of the talents in Luke 19:11-27, is Jesus' way of telling us how it is and will be. Read it carefully and see the fate of the Jews, who rejected Him and still refuse to acknowledge Jesus. Matthew 21:43
In this church age, we know that Satan is the ruler of the earth. Matthew 4:8-10, John 12:31, 2 Cor. 4:4
Jesus has gained the right to rule on earth by His sacrifice, but He remains in heaven until the nations are made His footstool. Acts 2:35, Psalms 110:1 The events as described in Revelation, esp the Sixth Seal, will achieve that and at His visible Return, He will bind Satan and rule with the saints for 1000 years.
The Ephesians 1:20-23 quote is a statement and a prophecy, awaiting the final fulfillment.

Re a rapture: because I know how fixed in their belief of a rapture to heaven is to all who hold to that idea, so I find to best to leave well alone. We have been over this issue before and despite the proofs I presented, nothing changed your mind.
I believe it is a Satanic deception, but God has allowed it to become very widespread and all rapture believers are locked into it, as Isaiah 29:9-12 says.
The Lord's Day of wrath will be everyone's test of faith, 1 Peter 4:12, Rev 2:10, Rev 13:10 and those who expected to be raptured out of it may renounce their faith, to their eternal demise.

 

[Mozzie]

If i may add something going of what i was taught when i was with the JWs...

I was taught that only 144,000 JWs will go to heaven to serve Jehovah and , there is no possibility that anyone else has a heavenly hope. we were told that we will not go to heaven. i was taught that only those who did Jehovah's will would live forever on a paradise earth and all other people will be destroyed in the battle of Armageddon. The only hope that others have is to join the WT and be counted among the number of the great crowd and serve Jehovah in the outer courts of the earth.

The question is, is the Great Crowd really confined to this earth with no heavenly hope? According to some interpretation, the Book of Revelation places the 144,000 in heaven and the great crowd on earth. The 144,000 is mentioned only twice in all of scripture (Rev 7:1-8, 14: 1-5), but the great crowd is mentioned three times in the Book of Revelation (Rev 7:9, 19:1, 19:6). Two Greek words are used to differentiate between the sanctuary, where the 144,000 are said to dwell, and the outer courts of the temple, where the great crowd supposedly resides.


Unlike the word hieron, which doesn’t appear in the book of Revelation, naos appears 40 times in the New Testament and 13 times in Revelation alone. We’ll look at just a few examples and then make comments.

REV 7:15- “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. In other words, this verse puts the great crowd in the sanctuary of God’s temple.

REV 11:1-2- Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. “Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

This verse makes a distinction between the outer courts and the temple proper. As we can see, God is only interested in the sanctuary and those who worship in it and not the outer courts.

REV 11: 19- And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

If verse two of this same chapter makes a distinction between the naos and the outer courts, and verse nineteen tells us that the naos is in heaven, where do we get the idea that the great crowd is in the outer courts? We cannot emphasize enough the fact that the word hieron is never used in the book of Revelation! The context always refers to a heavenly scene.

If this isn’t enough, there is one passage in in Revelation that specifically states that the great crowd is in heaven.

REV 19:1- After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven.

There is no mistaking where this verse places the great crowd. IN HEAVEN

 

[Trekson]

Good points, Mozzie

 

[Trekson]

Hi Keras, I think your Re the kingdom reply should have been to Naomi.

 

[keras]

Hi Mozzie,
Revelation chapter 7 describes earthly scenes. The first 3 verses set the scene and there is no change of location. Even the Throne of God can be seen on earth, as Ezekiel 1 proves. The 144k are selected from out of the vast multitude and they go out to the nations to proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19
No living person ever goes to live in heaven, John 3:13, the 'crowd' mentioned in Rev 19:1, are those souls of the martyrs, Rev 6:9-11 who are allowed to cry out at times.

Eventually all of God's people will live with God on earth, Rev 21:3, so it will be heaven coming to earth for eternity.

 

[Mozzie]

I have to say that this is one of the things that i am battling with at the moment, i was always taught that mankind would remain on earth and it talks about the new Jerusalem being established on the earth. Weather or not this is what John was seeing is unsure, i say that cause John is very specific in his words for lactation of the great crowd. The Bible doesn't really touch on anything after it states there will be new heavens and a new earth, we could argue that this will be an earthly settings and that we will be filled with the glory of God, but we have to look at the where we are born flesh and raised in spirit. Also in Verse 16 of Rev 7

16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.

Looking at that on face value would suggest that this has to be a heavenly setting, but i am still researching this topic as it is something that interests me a lot, as i said earlier this is what i was taught bout earthly hope, and then coming to terms that we go to heaven is a turn around for me in thought , so hopefully ill learn moire reading this topic.

 

[ezekiel]

We all know that Christ is that Lamb. We also know that we are call Christians because of following Christ, in His likeness and gave a crown of life. And as it is written go into all the world. We also know that He is the first and the last. We also know that this may be the first seal but is not stated that it is ( the Lamb opened one of the seals). When the Gospel is preached the Spirit goes forth to who it will and knocks. They repent and come to Christ it is not by a arrow but by his Spirit that this White Horse rules He was the first and this also same seal will be the last as Christ Himself comes on His own as it is written.

6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

 

[ezekiel]

We all know that Christ is that Lamb. We also know that we are call Christians because of following Christ, in His likeness and gave a crown of life. And as it is written go into all the world. We also know that He is the first and the last. We also know that this may be the first seal but is not stated that it is ( the Lamb opened one of the seals). When the Gospel is preached the Spirit goes forth to who it will and knocks. They repent and come to Christ it is not by a arrow but by his Spirit that this White Horse rules He was the first and this also same seal will be the last as Christ Himself comes on His own as it is written.

6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

This is the count down

Revelation 16:12
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

When the army's are ready they will attack.


Revelation 9:14
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

The bottomless pit in route. Earths crust will move and slide into new places. Ancient one's will come to earth( figs ). Great understanding will happen at this point the books will be rolled up. This is what I call escape from planet x .

Revelation 6:12
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

 

[ezekiel]

The three nation that came from the Euphrates (frogs), reptile, will gather for war plus the one from the great Euphrates in the waters above that firey dragon the red star also known as 66 and 6 in Hebrew but God will strike that planet.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Micheal's star comes from the west. The Dragon from the south. And no place in heaven any more for Satan.

9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

The souls cry out to God for what has happen.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Do you see the THUNDER of the vials.

 

[ezekiel]

As you can see things are increased and earth is heating up as each vial are open. Its as lighting strikes Sun.

Revelation 16:8
And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Then the THUNDERS utter their voices. Our days will no longer be 24 hours but only 16 hours. Them that have gardens the planter of the seed will catch up with the reaper.

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Revelation 8:12
And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

We need to get ready. Many will need help. Store's will be out of foods.

Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

[ezekiel]

Moreover : Peter say one day with the Lord is as a thousand years. I tell you one moment with the Lord is as two thousand years.

Behold : And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

 

[ezekiel]

In these three as you see the waters are the spirit of God that goes forth. Christ is at the well a women is drawing water, Christ says drink of Me and you will never thirst again.

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 16:4
And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

I would think when God has allowed a third of Christians and Churches this will end.

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Revelation 8:10
And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

I did not want to talk about these three but I had to. But know this if any receive this mark of that beast they will burn.

Revelation 6:5
And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

 

[ezekiel]

In the third vial the two witnesses rather two nation's will be taken down the dead body's will lie in the streets for three and half years. They even made a holiday out of it they send present to each other. Them two nation will stand back on their feet. And at that time the dead in Christ will rise and be preast unto the Lord. Them that are alive will follow in due time. God will destroy them from Heaven and rain on them. The second are the second woe then the first are the last woe until the end.

Revelation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Revelation 8:8
And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 6:3
And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

Revelation 16:2
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Revelation 8:7
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

O course then the White horse as he was. but the end is not yet.

Here the meek that has the earth until around 2032 when God finishes up with the sevens.

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Satan builds his army again.

Revelation 16:16
And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Then the sevens.

 

[ezekiel]

Every one knows that this world is Gods garden the Kingdom of Heaven is above. This is what Christ speaks of and six days is whats been gave. More over Gods House is a house of prayer.


Genesis 2:2
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Revelation 16:17
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 8:1

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Ok, sounds good Trekson. Ill just start with why I think it is incorrect to view the book of Revelation as chronological.

THE VISION OF THE 7 SEALS (4-7)
Christ is glorified:[SIZE=11.5pt] [/SIZE]
The earth suffers:
Christ returns/wicked are punished:[SIZE=11.5pt] [/SIZE]
The faithful celebrate:

THE VISION OF THE 7 TRUMPETS (8-11)
The earth suffers:
Christ returns/wicked are punished:
The faithful celebrate:

THE VISION OF THE WOMAN & DRAGON (12-14)
Christ is glorified:
The earth suffers:
Christ returns/the wicked are punished:
The faithful celebrate:
[SIZE=11.5pt] [/SIZE]
THE VISION OF THE 7 PLAGUES (15-19)
Christ is glorified:
The earth suffers:
Christ returns/the wicked are punished:[SIZE=11.5pt] [/SIZE]
The faithful celebrate:

THE VISION OF THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM (20-22)
Christ is glorified:
The earth suffers:
Christ returns/the wicked are punished:
The faithful celebrate:

I am amazed at how you view the book of Revelation.

I am convinced by example upon example, that how we view a book, passage, or verse, the presumptions we make, the very basis for our view - determines how we conclude its applicability and its interpretation.

As you said, Wormwood, this "structure" of yours determines your view.
I am much opposed to your division so as to render this neat lesson of Glorification/Suffering/Return-Punishment/Celebration.

As we are fundamentally divided, not only in how we parse the book of Revelation, but in how we view its attendant passages, we will continue to talk past each other.

However, thank-you for sharing, it's always nice to see the basis for someone's eschatology.