An analogy to illustrate God's sovereignty and Our free will.

[QuickFilly]

God has ordained that all who remain dead in Adam will perish and go into second death.
Nowhere is the word predestined used in that way.
Predestination is used in a positive way to describe the work of God in bringing the elect sheep to be conformed to the Image of the Son.

Isn't the term elect self explanatory?
And what of the non-elect?

 

[Iconoclast]

Isn't the term elect self explanatory?
And what of the non-elect?

The term used of the non elect is preterition;
The Reformed doctrine of preterition says that God elects some people to salvation and leaves the rest of humanity in their fallen condition. The word preterition means “passing over” and, in the context of theology, “omission from God’s elect.” The word implies that God chose to “pass over” some people and save others. The Westminster Confession of Faith teaches preterition: “The rest of mankind [not the elect] God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice” (Chapter III — Article VII).

Quite simply, preterition says that some people are not chosen for salvation. Preterition is the flip side of predestination. The doctrine of predestination emphasizes the positive aspect of election—some are chosen for heaven. The doctrine of preterition emphasizes the negative aspect of the same doctrine—some are not chosen. It is a logical doctrine. Since not everyone goes to heaven, there must be some who are not elected. Those who are not elected for salvation must perforce be “passed over” in the choosing. If preterition were false, then everyone would be in heaven and no one would be in hell.
It is important to differentiate preterition from double predestination. Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven. The problem is that double predestination is not taught in Scripture. The Bible nowhere says that God “elects” people to go to hell; the only election mentioned in the Bible is that which sends people to heaven. Preterition, in contrast, teaches that God actively elects some to heaven and passively allows others to remain in their sin—it is an unbalanced predestination in that God is active toward some and inactive toward others. The doctrine of preterition is careful not to go beyond what the Bible teaches about predestination.

The doctrine of preterition seeks to preserve God’s justice while upholding His sovereignty in election. Since mankind chose to rebel in Eden (and continues to choose to sin), their condemnation is perfectly just. Everyone “stands condemned already” (John 3:18). God cannot be accused of injustice simply because He “passes by” a condemned person and leaves him to the punishment he deserves any more than a governor who “passes by” the last-minute appeal of a death-row inmate and declines to commute the just sentence.

The Bible is clear that God elects or chooses the saved (John 6:37; Romans 9:10–13; Titus 1:1). The dispute over election centers on the basis for it: is election based on God’s foreknowledge of who will respond to the gospel, or is it based solely on God’s sovereign extension of mercy? The relationship between God’s sovereignty and man’s free will has been debated ad infinitum for centuries. The fact is that the Bible teaches God’s sovereignty, wisdom, and mercy in salvation (John 15:16); and it also teaches man’s responsibility to repent and believe (Mark 1:15). We should ultimately be okay with not fully understanding every nuance of God’s work, in the knowledge that His thoughts and ways are infinitely higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8–9).

The doctrine of preterition teaches that election is one-sided. God extended mercy to some whom He chose (Romans 9:18), leaving others to their fate. Meanwhile, the gospel is to be extended to all people (Matthew 28:1 –20). Those who believe in Christ are saved, and those who refuse God’s merciful offer are not (Romans 3:10–11, 20–24). Reconciling God’s proactivity in salvation with the need for human faith is something that finite human minds will continue to struggle with.

from got questions...

 

[QuickFilly]

The term used of the non elect is preterition;
The Reformed doctrine of preterition says that God elects some people to salvation and leaves the rest of humanity in their fallen condition. The word preterition means “passing over” and, in the context of theology, “omission from God’s elect.” The word implies that God chose to “pass over” some people and save others. The Westminster Confession of Faith teaches preterition: “The rest of mankind [not the elect] God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice” (Chapter III — Article VII).

Quite simply, preterition says that some people are not chosen for salvation. Preterition is the flip side of predestination. The doctrine of predestination emphasizes the positive aspect of election—some are chosen for heaven. The doctrine of preterition emphasizes the negative aspect of the same doctrine—some are not chosen. It is a logical doctrine. Since not everyone goes to heaven, there must be some who are not elected. Those who are not elected for salvation must perforce be “passed over” in the choosing. If preterition were false, then everyone would be in heaven and no one would be in hell.
It is important to differentiate preterition from double predestination. Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven. The problem is that double predestination is not taught in Scripture. The Bible nowhere says that God “elects” people to go to hell; the only election mentioned in the Bible is that which sends people to heaven. Preterition, in contrast, teaches that God actively elects some to heaven and passively allows others to remain in their sin—it is an unbalanced predestination in that God is active toward some and inactive toward others. The doctrine of preterition is careful not to go beyond what the Bible teaches about predestination.

The doctrine of preterition seeks to preserve God’s justice while upholding His sovereignty in election. Since mankind chose to rebel in Eden (and continues to choose to sin), their condemnation is perfectly just. Everyone “stands condemned already” (John 3:18). God cannot be accused of injustice simply because He “passes by” a condemned person and leaves him to the punishment he deserves any more than a governor who “passes by” the last-minute appeal of a death-row inmate and declines to commute the just sentence.

The Bible is clear that God elects or chooses the saved (John 6:37; Romans 9:10–13; Titus 1:1). The dispute over election centers on the basis for it: is election based on God’s foreknowledge of who will respond to the gospel, or is it based solely on God’s sovereign extension of mercy? The relationship between God’s sovereignty and man’s free will has been debated ad infinitum for centuries. The fact is that the Bible teaches God’s sovereignty, wisdom, and mercy in salvation (John 15:16); and it also teaches man’s responsibility to repent and believe (Mark 1:15). We should ultimately be okay with not fully understanding every nuance of God’s work, in the knowledge that His thoughts and ways are infinitely higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8–9).

The doctrine of preterition teaches that election is one-sided. God extended mercy to some whom He chose (Romans 9:18), leaving others to their fate. Meanwhile, the gospel is to be extended to all people (Matthew 28:1 –20). Those who believe in Christ are saved, and those who refuse God’s merciful offer are not (Romans 3:10–11, 20–24). Reconciling God’s proactivity in salvation with the need for human faith is something that finite human minds will continue to struggle with.

from got questions...

Great read. Thank you.

 

[Iconoclast]

Great read. Thank you.

Glad to help...this issues get to people on an emotional level. If we search diligently we can find and piece together the correct teaching if we do not have a knee jerk reaction.
The truth delights to be investigated.

 

[Taken]

This is not speaking of mans will being free...it is speaking of an offering not commanded by the law.there are several verses speaking of these offerings, not commanded by law.

Replied once...but will add specifically to "AN OFFERING NOT COMMANDED BY LAW" ...
I believe you will find quite extensively in the Mosaic Law, "peace offerings and sin offerings", pertaining to express Animals to be used, when, how often and to be given by whom, and eaten by whom.

 

[Wrangler]

Except that’s not how reformed theology and Calvinism works.

In that doctrine, man is born totally depraved

That man is NOT totally depraved is seen in the fact that there are now 8 billion people on Earth.

 

[Taken]

Men have self will...that is scriptural.
Your will is bound by your nature.
It is not "free"

In heaven, glorified persons will not be free to sin.
We are not "free" to sin now, but we are still able to.
God does not have "free will". He is not free to sin. His Holy nature cannot sin.

Freewill -
IS the ability to CHOOSE without constraint.

Apparently -
You ARE constrained by your NATURE to MAKE CHOICES.

It is well known, MEN can certainly be constrained by Nature...
A MAN, certainly may DESIRE to FLY like a bird flys in the skys or DESIRE to SWIM in the depths of the sea like a fish swims...AND...men have by their own Freewill...FLOWN in the skys and SWAM in the depts of the seas.
MEN HAVE, transplanted Hearts, giving men a new heart, according to their Freewill, without constraint.
MEN HAVE, changed Genders, giving men a new gender, according to their Freewill, without constraint.
MEN HAVE, communicated with other men, by voice, by vision, while Being thousands of miles apart, according to their Freewill, without constraint.

Men "incarcerated" Certainly are captured and bound "against their FREEWILL.", with FULL KNOWLEDGE, that their own Freewill Choices, Could very Likely, LIMIT and CONSTRAIN "BY OTHER MEN"...their Freewill Choices.

The FACT IS: Knowledge of man INCREASING, was foretold, and has been coming to pass before our eyes.
A man IS NOT Constrained, whether flying in the skys, swimming the depts of the seas, changing genders, incarcerated by other men, communicating with other men thousands of miles apart...
[/B]
TO ESTABLISH BY THEIR OWN "NATURAL" FREEWILL Desire, OF Having A Relationship WITH the; Lord God Almighty.......
YET" !

THE "YET", is already in "the works" of wicked men; TO ALTER a mans "FREEWILL", (FREE Choices.) As Increased knowledge of man was foretold....(Dan 12:4) SO ALSO was THAT ^ specifically foretold....called an Abomination...which leads to Desolation.

Dan 9:
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 12:
[11] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The Knowledge increased Daniel speaks of has been occuring over centuries. The Last 100 years, has been observed as exponential increases of knowledge.
The Week Daniel speaks of is the LAST 7 years.
The "set up"... (which is ALREADY in the Works)...Shall be IN the Middle of the WEEK, (ie Middle of the 7 years period) a USED established METHOD.

Do you KNOW, what IS the method, IN the Works NOW, being prepared, to BE USED, in the MID portion of the Last 7 years?
The Abomination?

I presume you do not know, since you are a natural self-willed man, "WHO can not sin, but is yet STILL ABLE to sin". (Oxymoron).

What IS IN THE WORKS, (being developed, being tested, trials of testing; on willing human test subjects....
IS the Abomination of "ALTERING" a mans "ability TO FREELY CHOOSE."
EXPRESSLY, TO FREELY, by the mans OWN WILL...TO FREELY CHOOSE GOD!

Convincing men "WITH words, and INDOCTRINATION" of repetative LIES... by itself alone is so Old School...Physically, Chemically Changing a mans MINDS process, IS SO IN...
And the people say...oooh ya...Take our wealth, develop measures to .... FIX the minds of Thieves, Liars, Cheats....with chemical compounds and mind blocking measures to STOP theives, liars, cheats...
FROM having DESIRES TO steal, lie, cheat.

Don't pay attention, that those SAME METHODS...may ALSO be used TO: OVERCOME a mans FREEWILL and prohibit a man from Mindfully Believing IN GOD!

So the next question IS:
WHY WILL that Abomination of altering a mans MIND, and FREEWILL to Choose God....still result in A FAIL?

Do you know?

 

[Taken]

That man is NOT totally depraved is seen in the fact that there are now 8 billion people on Earth.

Correct.

 

[Wrangler]

The FACT IS: Knowledge of man INCREASING, was foretold, and has been coming to pass before our eyes.
A man IS NOT Constrained, whether flying in the skys, swimming the depts of the seas, changing genders, incarcerated by other men, communicating with other men thousands of miles apart...

The principle of Free Will is at the heart of sin and our criminal justice system. Naturally, the world, particularly the political Left is opposed to this principle and are using a 2-prong strategy.

1. Victimology
2. ‘Science’

Without Free Will, there can be no responsibility for our actions. Claiming victim status removes this heavy burden.

I’ve read articles that ‘Scientists’ have discovered we don’t have Free Will like everyone thought. We are victims of our past, heredity, environment. Just poor response creatures where some won in life’s lottery.

 

[Taken]

That man is NOT totally depraved is seen in the fact that there are now 8 billion people on Earth.

Right.

Man was "created" depraved...NO LIFE IN him.
Immediately God "made" His "created" man;
ALIVE.

The Process continues.
Gods Works of Creating and Making.

*The Knowledge From God, Of God...IS the created and made man, IS weak, easily Tempted, easily can stumble and fall...
*AND the Knowledge From God, Of God....IS
By Gods POWER, a stumbling fallen man...
CAN BE MADE....("IF" the man Freely by his own WILL...chooses
"IF" ... (mans Freewill choice)
.....Rom 10:9
TO BE; (freely choosing for "Gods Works" to prevail in a man)
"Restored" (soul)...
......Pss 23:3
"Quickened" (natural spirit reborn)...
......John 3:7
......1 Cor 15:45
"Crucified with Christ" (body freely given unto death)
......Gal 2:20

GOD SHALL; By Gods POWER; By Gods WORKS...accomplish the mans "re-MAKING'.

A mans FAITH....
(IS DEAD, NIL, INCOMPLETE)...
WITHOUT...
Gods WORKS in a man...

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The principle of Free Will is at the heart of sin and our criminal justice system. Naturally, the world, particularly the political Left is opposed to this principle and are using a 2-prong strategy.

1. Victimology
2. ‘Science’

Without Free Will, there can be no responsibility for our actions. Claiming victim status removes this heavy burden.

I’ve read articles that ‘Scientists’ have discovered we don’t have Free Will like everyone thought. We are victims of our past, heredity, environment. Just poor response creatures where some won in life’s lottery.

I get your point. Don't forget the FEAR factor.
Take the latest...
Announce a Pandemic....oh, oh, the fear, the fear, the 24-7 reporting....Deaths, Deaths, Deaths...
People, People, SAVE your lives.
The man-made FIX to a man-made Pandemic;
Distance people, mask people, inject people...
AND?
* Within weeks and lingering for months...
What do Millions of People DO...to SAVE THEIR LIVES?
Distance, (particularly the target, Close Churches, where Gods Word is Spoken) hibernate, mask, beg for chemical compound injections....and NOT WORK to provide for themselves, basic necessities.
And conveniently the freewill to hibernate, mask, receive injections, not work....turning behind the pseudo door of justice to underhanded compulsions.

Dare one understand...say...risk being branded a lunatic...forcefully hauled off...


Matt
[25] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it....

[26] For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? ...

I'm already on the branded list by men OF the World...
Eh...too late...Killing a Crucified body, is moot. I'm already Marked by a Power higher than the power men OF this world and even the power satan himself has.

 

[Taken]

Iconoclast ~

God IS JUST.
Gods WAY IS JUST.

Deut. 32:
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Rev 15:
[3] And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Your implication is...God has DECIDED Some men shall be Saved, Some men shall be Passed Over, Omitted.
(Doctrine of Preterition).

IF you study Scripture, you would understand;
God IS ALL KNOWING...
Man IS NOT ALL KNOWING...
God ALREADY KNOWS what "every man will FREELY decided".
It is NOT GOD DECIDING for men to REJECT HIM or CHOOSE Him.

Gods WAY, is nothing new...God tells us ahead of time...He has ALREADY "PREPARED" a place FOR EVERY man...BECAUSE God ALREADY KNOWS what Every man WILL "DECIDE"!

And "WHEN" a man DOES Freely "DECIDE"... to Believe In or Reject God....THEN WILL THE MAN, ALSO KNOW, exactly "what place" God has "prepared for the man".

Absolutely God WILL "ALSO" Reject the man WHO freely "REJECTS" God, inasmuch as God WILL ACCEPT the man WHO freely "ACCEPTS" God.

And for the Skeptic...
Before a man IS ACCEPTED or REJECTED "BY" God ... God Himself Searches the "Natural" mans, TRUTH, in the mans "Natural spirit", in the mans "Natural Heart."....TO SEE the mans TRUTH....;
OF Belief in God, OR Rejection of God.

Jer 17:
[10] I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

God Does NOT DECIDE "FOR MEN."
God Already KNOWS what every mans Freewill Decision WILL BE.

 

[marks]

There is no need to preach the Gospel if faith is predetermined, yet we are told to preach the Gospel to all the world. The hearing of faith is the key.

Rather, faith could be predetermined, and even so, God may have likewise determined to "awaken" that faith through preaching.

Just a small thing, but we shouldn't be to quick to reach conclusions.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Quite simply, preterition says that some people are not chosen for salvation.

What an odd idea of the God Who is Love!

That God made people, but He only loves some of them?

Love is of course action.

Malachi 1:2-4 KJV
2) I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3) And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
4) Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Why did God hate Esau?

Obadiah 1:8-11 KJV
8) Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?
9) And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.
10) For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.
11) In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.

Edom joined Israel's enemies. These is people groups, not individuals.

God, Who IS Love, makes man, does He not love him?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Rather, faith could be predetermined, and even so, God may have likewise determined to "awaken" that faith through preaching.

It is my Belief that faith is offered to whomsoever will, But election is for those who are predetermined, this is why I distinguish between the faithful and the saints in the Body of Christ. This is where the error lies that leads to the controversy between God's sovereignty and man's free will. When Rightly distinguished Both the Calvinist and the Arminian view are correct, and are not in controversy with one another, instead the apparent contradiction just melts away. Using my scholarship analogy, not all who receive the scholarships will become PHD's in their field, only a select few who have the aptitude will reach this milestone.

 

[Iconoclast]

marks,

[What an odd idea of the God Who is Love!
That God made people, but He only loves some of them?]

God set His love on a multitude that no man can number.
It is a great mercy that he saves anyone.

God passed over the rest. He is perfect in wisdom and if He passed over them he has a perfect and wise reason for that.

When God passed over the other nations except for Israel, are you going to question His wisdom in that?
You only have I known of all the nations of the earth.
Do you object to that and suggest it is an "odd" idea?

 

[Iconoclast]

[It is my Belief that faith is offered to whomsoever will, But election is for those who are predetermined, this is why I distinguish between the faithful and the saints in the Body of Christ.]

Yes...those who will=the elect.

 

[Iconoclast]

Taken,
[Iconoclast ~

God IS JUST.
Gods WAY IS JUST.

Deut. 32:
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.]

Agreed Taken, He is Holy, Just, and Good.

[Your implication is...God has DECIDED Some men shall be Saved, Some men shall be Passed Over, Omitted.
(Doctrine of Preterition).]

God considered all men as fallen and already condemned in Adam. I see in scripture that God set His eternal love on those the Father gave to Him.
This was positive mercy, undeserved.

Taken when your wife sends you to pick out one or two thanksgiving Turkeys, you pick out two you want.....You do not have to think....I do not want to pick all these others, you select the ones that you want based on your criterion.

Not the best example, but the fact is not all are chosen in a positive sense.
i do not see a stress on the ones not chosen, a couple of verses can be viewed on that account.

[IF you study Scripture, you would understand;
God IS ALL KNOWING...]

Yes, this is clearly taught in scripture in many places, I agree once again.

[Man IS NOT ALL KNOWING...
God ALREADY KNOWS what "every man will FREELY decided".
It is NOT GOD DECIDING for men to REJECT HIM or CHOOSE Him.]

No, sorry, scripture is abundantly clear. The Father gave a multitude to the Son .
There is no suggestion that men were seeking God before any determination is made.In fact just the opposite.God chose the elect while they were yet dead in sin and rebels against HIM
rom5;
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

[Gods WAY, is nothing new...God tells us ahead of time...He has ALREADY "PREPARED" a place FOR EVERY man...BECAUSE God ALREADY KNOWS what Every man WILL "DECIDE"!]
No...never found in scripture;
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

[And "WHEN" a man DOES Freely "DECIDE"... to Believe In or Reject God....THEN WILL THE MAN, ALSO KNOW, exactly "what place" God has "prepared for the man".]

No...man is born spiritually dead and would never decide anything godly, apart from saving grace.

[Absolutely God WILL "ALSO" Reject the man WHO freely "REJECTS" God, inasmuch as God WILL ACCEPT the man WHO freely "ACCEPTS" God.]

Not one time does it say a man" accepts" God...not in scripture.
Adam died in the fall. He was not wounded by suffered spiritual death.


[And for the Skeptic...
Before a man IS ACCEPTED or REJECTED "BY" God ... God Himself Searches the "Natural" mans, TRUTH, in the mans "Natural spirit", in the mans "Natural Heart."....TO SEE the mans TRUTH....;
OF Belief in God, OR Rejection of God]

Men are rejected as the default condition that sin has left them in....

[Jer 17:
[10] I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

God Does NOT DECIDE "FOR MEN."
God Already KNOWS what every mans Freewill Decision WILL BE]

If the Father does not give a person to the Son, they will never come;
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[marks]

It is my Belief that faith is offered to whomsoever will, But election is for those who are predetermined,

One cancels the other. Either salvation is offered to all or it's not.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

One cancels the other. Either salvation is offered to all or it's not.

False. Salvation is one thing and sainthood another thing. Not all who go to college end up with PHD's.

Salvation is offered to whomsoever will. Sainthood is by divine Lot according to the predetermined will of God. God chooses who the saints are.

The equating of saints with all born again believers is the big error of Protestantism.