An analogy to illustrate God's sovereignty and Our free will.

[David H.]

Paul never used such an analogy to divide the church into "greater" and "lesser" Christians, he wrote of our unity in Christ.

I do in fact understand what you are doing. In your constant stream of vain denigrations you reveal your need for such a self-affirmation. If you are willing to receive this, and grow from it.

False again, You need to read the Bible:

"Collections for the saints", "least of the saints", "My service may be accepted of the saints", "called to be saints", "Distributing to the necessity of saints", "they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,", "ministering to the saints.", "fellowcitizens with the saints", "May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height", "Prayer and supplication for the saints", "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe", "and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;", "For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets", " drunken with the blood of the saints,",

 

[David H.]

Paul never used such an analogy to divide the church into "greater" and "lesser" Christians, he wrote of our unity in Christ.

Paul's whole life is a picture of running the race to be among the saints, from His conversion to His decision to go to Jerusalem knowing he would be imprisoned and eventually martyred. While imprisoned he wrote Ephesians, in it he for the first time equated himself with the rest of the saints. "least of the saints", He finished the course, and ran the race, and Got the crown.

You can run from persecution, or you can stand and face it as testimony of the Salvation and redemption of the cross. Paul faced His, as did all the other Apostles, as did Polycarp, as have all the saints of the church. They have stood and faced the persecution so others do not have to. So You would not have to. The least you could do is acknowledge their sacrifice.

 

[marks]

False again, You need to read the Bible:

"Collections for the saints", "least of the saints", "My service may be accepted of the saints", "called to be saints", "Distributing to the necessity of saints", "they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,", "ministering to the saints.", "fellowcitizens with the saints", "May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height", "Prayer and supplication for the saints", "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe", "and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;", "For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets", " drunken with the blood of the saints,",

Not one single of these support your dividing the body of Christ. Not One!

However, it seems perhaps you are now asserting that we aren't instructed to care for the needs of the "merely" faithful? And so on?

No! These apply to all the born again.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You can run from persecution,

The real deal is to live every day sacrificed for others. This is the one thing I desire most that you would come to understand. That as you choose to trust Jesus today, you can pour yourself out a sweet sacrifice even now.

Much love!

 

[Curtis]

The principle of Free Will is at the heart of sin and our criminal justice system. Naturally, the world, particularly the political Left is opposed to this principle and are using a 2-prong strategy.

1. Victimology
2. ‘Science’

Without Free Will, there can be no responsibility for our actions. Claiming victim status removes this heavy burden.

I’ve read articles that ‘Scientists’ have discovered we don’t have Free Will like everyone thought. We are victims of our past, heredity, environment. Just poor response creatures where some won in life’s lottery.

Many people overcome their past baggage and become successful people, which falsifies your assertion that we have no choice but to let our past baggage control us and negate free will

Freewill is shown by the elect Israelites resisting the Holy Spirit and rejecting their very own Messiah and thus rejecting salvation.

 

[Heart2Soul]

marks,

[What an odd idea of the God Who is Love!
That God made people, but He only loves some of them?]

God set His love on a multitude that no man can number.
It is a great mercy that he saves anyone.

God passed over the rest. He is perfect in wisdom and if He passed over them he has a perfect and wise reason for that.

When God passed over the other nations except for Israel, are you going to question His wisdom in that?
You only have I known of all the nations of the earth.
Do you object to that and suggest it is an "odd" idea?

I agree....it used to bother me when reading the OT where God commanded them to kill the women and children and even the horses and cattle....how did the horse and cow offend Him...anyway....those people must have been very evil and God didn't want any remnant of their seed left to reproduce.

 

[Curtis]

4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself

A perfect example of inferring Calvinist election dogma into scripture.

God chose the plan of salvation from the founding of the world, that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved, . and that those who choose to receive Jesus become children of God, John 1:12

There’s absolutely nothing whatsoever in the text that says God chose individuals by name to be saved, and imparted irresistible grace on them.

Whosoever will may come. verse 22:17 in Revelation.

 

[Iconoclast]

A lot of confidence is displayed here with very little facts.

“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;" - Deut. 30:19

The fact that God a) gives us options to choose from and b) recommends that we choose the best option automatically implies free will is involved here on the part of human beings. God doesn't force people to do things. He lets us decide which option to choose, even though doing the right thing is always the better option. Choosing to do the wrong thing carries its own sets of consequences, but there are still consequences that results from choosing to do the opposite of what the right thing is.

If we didn't have free will, we'd be robots who were automatically programmed to do what God commanded. God allowing this world to be a chaotic, illogical, irrational mess is clear evidence that free will exists. If free will didn't exist, this world would've already been the kind of world God wanted it to be millennia ago.

The ability to choose does not mean the will is free.

 

[David H.]

Not one single of these support your dividing the body of Christ. Not One!

However, it seems perhaps you are now asserting that we aren't instructed to care for the needs of the "merely" faithful? And so on?

No! These apply to all the born again.

The real deal is to live every day sacrificed for others. This is the one thing I desire most that you would come to understand. That as you choose to trust Jesus today, you can pour yourself out a sweet sacrifice even now.

You can run from persecution, or you can stand and face it as testimony of the Salvation and redemption of the cross. Paul faced His, as did all the other Apostles, as did Polycarp, as have all the saints of the church. They have stood and faced the persecution so others do not have to. So You would not have to. The least you could do is acknowledge their sacrifice.

 

[marks]

There’s absolutely nothing whatsoever in the text that says God chose individuals by name to be saved, and imparted irresistible grace on them.

Do you know this is not what I'm saying?

The point I'm making in that post is to say show that Paul is not carving the church into "greater" and "lesser" Christians, as @David H. claims.

Christianity is not some sort of "caste" system of "faithful", who apparently have something less than the "saints", who are God's chosen favorites, or something like that.

God addressed the "faithful" and the "saints", which David claims are different, I'm asking him to show what that difference is. And I'm pointing out in the passage that it is inclusive, us. There is no distinction.

Towards your point there, yes, I argee completely, that all are invited, and even more that God comes to each human He made to show them the Way. And we either accept or reject.

Much love!

 

[marks]

When God passed over the other nations except for Israel, are you going to question His wisdom in that?
You only have I known of all the nations of the earth.
Do you object to that and suggest it is an "odd" idea?

No to each question.

Much love!

 

[marks]

They have stood and faced the persecution so others do not have to.

Interesting Idea, but I don't think this is Scriptural.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

The point I'm making in that post is to say show that Paul is not carving the church into "greater" and "lesser" Christians, as @David H. claims.

It's not so much Paul as it is Christ Jesus....
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Revelation 11:18)

Read also Luke 12:42-48
And the Parable of the Talents Matthew 25:15-30

We are given gifts and abilities that we are to use to further His Kingdom, what we do with these gifts determines our place in His Kingdom, and the rewards we receive. What you see as a "Caste system" I see as the Justice of God. It is those who sacrifice their own will to do the will of God who are rewarded as saints, Just like Christ, who said "nevertheless not my will but thine be done" (Luke 22:42) drinking from Gethsemene's cup is the mark of a saint.

 

[marks]

It's not so much Paul as it is Christ Jesus....

You are the one dividing by this doctrine, which is not found in the Bible.

What you see as a "Caste system" I see as the Justice of God. It is those who sacrifice their own will to do the will of God who are rewarded as saints,

And there it is. Not by God's divine lot, His Own choosing, unknown to us, as you said before. Rather, you are "earning your way into a higher place".

I call this a "caste system" because that's what it is, man elevating himself over other men, as if by means of right. "But it's only right that I should be the Greater Christian", the Bride, or the Son, or whatever titles one chooses for one's self. As if they are "choosen for it", born into it, which is plausible deniability. OH! I'm only the Higher Saint because God picked me! Because I'm so much more faithful! I've sacrificed myself!!

This is purely the appeal to pride, in my opinion, and in your behavior towards me I've not seen anything to argue any different.

As if something you might think you are doing in your life is greater than what Christ did for you? We are who we are by trusting in Jesus. We are doing our duty, and not even that I don't think.

But do be warned that God, in the context of those who were introducing just this sort of division, making some "better" or higher than others, God Himself warns us, the one who destroys His temple, God will Himself destroy. Those who would divide His body.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

And there it is. Not by God's divine lot, His Own choosing, unknown to us, as you said before. Rather, you are "earning your way into a higher place".

I call this a "caste system" because that's what it is, man elevating himself over other men, as if by means of right. "But it's only right that I should be the Greater Christian", the Bride, or the Son, or whatever titles one chooses for one's self. As if they are "choosen for it", born into it, which is plausible deniability. OH! I'm only the Higher Saint because God picked me! Because I'm so much more faithful! I've sacrificed myself!!

This is purely the appeal to pride, in my opinion, and in your behavior towards me I've not seen anything to argue any different.

As if something you might think you are doing in your life is greater than what Christ did for you? We are who we are by trusting in Jesus. We are doing our duty, and not even that I don't think.

But do be warned that God, in the context of those who were introducing just this sort of division, making some "better" or higher than others, God Himself warns us, the one who destroys His temple, God will Himself destroy. Those who would divide His body.

watch the first 20 minutes of this video: