An analogy to illustrate God's sovereignty and Our free will.

[marks]

Salvation is one thing and sainthood another thing.

There is no sainthood separate from salvation in Christ. Divine lot? Where do you get that from?

"Saint" simply means one who is set aside for God." And this already is an exalted status, no need to introduce division between two presumed types Christians.

I've just also realized you are asserting that believers are not elect. Interesting, but I certainly wouldn't agree with you there.

Much love!

 

[marks]

To understand predestination, we have to understand what we are predestined for. Not salvation.

Romans 8:29 KJV
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We've not been predestined to be saved, rather, having been foreknown, we are predestined to the success of our salvation, being conformed to the image of Christ.

Some say that won't happen for all Christians, but that's not true.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

There is no sainthood separate from salvation in Christ. Divine lot? Where do you get that from?

From Scripture. Been over this many times with you already but you just do not want to see this fact.

Saint by definition is one set apart from the whole. A Saint in the church is one set apart from the faithful, called of God to make the saintly sacrifice of giving their testimony in the Spiritual realm. Do You consider yourself greater than Paul? He himself said he was the least of the saints.... That alone should get you to question your definition of who a saint is.

 

[marks]

you already but you just do not want to see this fact.

2 posts in and you are already into the ad hominems.

 

[marks]

He himself said he was the least of the saints.... That alone should get you to question your definition of who a saint is.

Listen to yourself.

Oh birds, birds, gather round! You! Yes, the beautiful strong one! Me? I'm the least of the birds! Well then . . .what about the rest of you? Are any of you stonger than he? Are any of you more beautiful than he? Then you aren't birds.

That's "Non Sequitor", or, Does Not Follow.

This is as poor an argument as Ad Hominems.

This should mean something to you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sovereignty and Free Will.

God has decreed, and it cannot be overturned, that Man must choose, God's Way, or his own way. God's way leads to Him, and all other ways lead away from Him.

Stand at the ways, and see, and ask, what is the eternal way, the ancient path, the good way. Walk in it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Ephesians 1:1-6 KJV
1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Who is "us" in this passage?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

2 posts in and you are already into the ad hominems.

Oh birds, birds, gather round! You! Yes, the beautiful strong one! Me? I'm the least of the birds! Well then . . .what about the rest of you? Are any of you stonger than he? Are any of you more beautiful than he? Then you aren't birds.

That's "Non Sequitor", or, Does Not Follow.

Two posts in and you are already offended, and diverting away from the topic at hand.

 

[marks]

Two posts in and you are already offended, and diverting away from the topic at hand.

Presuming some emotional state I must be in is merely deflection by someone who doesn't want to answer for their words.

I'm perfectly happy to address the topic, as I have been, and I'd appreciate you confining yourself to the topic, and not give in to the fleshy desire to be insulting and presumptuous.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Two posts in and you are already offended, and diverting away from the topic at hand.

Do you know the meaning and significant of "non-sequitor" in a debate?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Notice the two groups: The "faithful and the Saints"

 

[David H.]

I'm perfectly happy to address the topic, as I have been, and I'd appreciate you confining yourself to the topic, and not give in to the fleshy desire to be insulting and presumptuous.

My Point is that I have already addressed this topic with you and we do not agree. Here is the link to this interaction if you wish to read it again....

Justification, instant sanctification and progressive sanctification and sainthood.. | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board

In It we discuss our different views, and I give ample scriptural basis for what I believe. There is no need to explain this again to you for you do not see my point.

 

[David H.]

Notice the two groups: The "faithful and the Saints"

The saints are those consecrated. Not all the vessels of the temple are consecrated only some are.

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
( Timothy 2:20-22)

 

[marks]

In It we discuss our different views, and I give ample scriptural basis for what I believe.

Not so, actually. No matter.

 

[marks]

Notice the two groups: The "faithful and the Saints"

Ephesians 1:1-6 KJV
1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


Who is "us"? And "our"? And "we"?

Who is this?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Who is "us"? And "our"? And "we"?

Who is this?

Both the faithful and the saints.

We are all sons and daughters by adoption. this does not take away from the distinction between the faithful and the saints. Saints are chosen by Lot (2 Peter 1:1-2) Salvation is not based upon Lot, But upon the hearing of faith (Romans 10:17, Galatians 3:2). Many are called, few are chosen.

When a saint is rightly understood as those chosen out of the whole of the body of faithful believers, both Calvin and Arminius can embrace one another in unity of the Spirit. If this error is left standing in Protestantism the division will continue to divide the body of Christ.

 

[marks]

Both the faithful and the saints.

So where then is this division you claim between "faithful" and "saints"?

Ephesians 1:1-12 KJV
1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

The very same things are promised to all. There is no division, there are no "faithful" who aren't "saints", or "saints" that aren't "faithful".

Over and over, we, us, our, together in one, on and on it goes. We don't need convoluted logical arguments. We need to submit ourselves to text, and just accept what it says.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If this error is left standing in Protestantism the division will continue to divide the body of Christ.

You actually are the one dividing the body of Christ. You make it out to be greater and lesser Christians. But we are all in Christ, and Christ is One.

Much love!

 

[DPMartin]

I came across this analogy from A.W. Tozer and I think it is one worth considering, its simplicity should be something that unites and does not divide as is the case on this discussion.

An ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.

On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.

Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man's freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God's sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfillment of those eternal purposes that He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us good hope and firm assurance of future well-being.

Tozer Devotional | God Moves Undisturbed and Unhindered (cmalliance.org)

Thoughts?

na, this OP is to support what you will.

but They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; isn't free will by a longshot, you're trying to jam free will in to it. free will in the context of man and God is that man choses God, where as in predestination God choses whom He pleases.

your analogy is nothing more than man's ability to chose from permitted trees in the garden. apples or oranges is no freer than any animal on the planet. plus there is the circumstances populations can find themselves in that deny anything to choose from, especially necessities. of which a sovereign God would have to allow in order for it to happen.

 

[David H.]

You actually are the one dividing the body of Christ. You make it out to be greater and lesser Christians. But we are all in Christ, and Christ is One.

False: It is no different than what Society states qualifies a person to be a doctor. You do not see society falling apart because some people are doctors and others are not. A Saint is one called apart of the whole..... the whole being the body of the faithful, the church. The saint is the "doctor" of the church in that respect. It really is that simple.