An analogy to illustrate God's sovereignty and Our free will.

[marks]

False: It is no different than what Society states qualifies a person to be a doctor. You do not see society falling apart because some people are doctors and others are not. A Saint is one called apart of the whole..... the whole being the body of the faithful, the church. The saint is the "doctor" of the church in that respect. It really is that simple.

What the state does, and what God does, are two different things.

You in fact divide attempt to divide the body of Christ when you assert two "classes" of God's children. God doesn't do that. You are doing that.

Doctor of the church? That is your fiction, nothing like that in the Bible.

Let's return to Ephesians.

Your claim is that there are "faithful", and there are "saints", and these are different.

So answer this.

What parts of Ephesians apply to "the faithful", and what parts apply to the "saints"? Show me the distinctions. You won't find them.

What you WILL find is that some faithful saints are given to the church to teach.

Let's stop trying to elevate ourselves over others, shall we??

Much love!

 

[David H.]

What the state does, and what God does, are two different things.

You in fact divide attempt to divide the body of Christ when you assert two "classes" of God's children. God doesn't do that. You are doing that.

Doctor of the church? That is your fiction, nothing like that in the Bible.

Let's return to Ephesians.

Your claim is that there are "faithful", and there are "saints", and these are different.

So answer this.

What parts of Ephesians apply to "the faithful", and what parts apply to the "saints"? Show me the distinctions. You won't find them.

What you WILL find is that some faithful saints are given to the church to teach.

Let's stop trying to elevate ourselves over others, shall we??

"Doctor" of the church is an analogy in case you missed it. An example using like or as to show similarity. This is basic Linguistics you are unable to comprehend....

And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. (1 Corinthians 12:5)

Ephesians was addressed to BOTH the faithful and the saints all parts apply to all of them.... Using the "Doctor" analogy, everyone that goes to college does not go on to become a Doctor. Thus Ephesians was not written specifically for the saints, But other passages are, for example 2 Peter is written to those who have obtained (legchano) By Divine lot, the higher calling of becoming a saint like unto the Apostles. It is by God's choice who becomes a saint, not by merit of the individual, although the individual has the responsibility of making their election sure (2 Peter 1:10-11) By yielding to the work of the Holy Spirit in their life and pressing on to the high calling of God in Christ (Philippians 3:14).

May I suggest, you read 1 Corinthians 12, and then notice how Paul transitions to chapter 13..... "But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." (1 Corinthians 12:31), and that way is the way of Love (Agape) which is what marks a saint. The Saintly way is the high calling of God In Christ, and it is in the churches of the saints that the confusion of debates such as Calvinism vs. Arminianism ceases.

 

[marks]

"Doctor" of the church is an analogy in case you missed it.

No . . . I got it. Try to slow down your quickness to be defamatory.

But it doesn't fit. The Bible already tells us about how the church functions, without some distinction between two classes of Christians. Christainty is NOT a "caste system". That would be Hinduism, or something else.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Ephesians was addressed to BOTH the faithful and the saints all parts apply to all of them....

So what do you think is the difference? Of course Ephesians is written to the saints, and to the faithful, or should I say, to the saints, even the faithful?

You introduce a distinction which the Bible does not. And in so doing you attempt to divide the church, thinking to be above others. That's no good. Not for you, not for those around you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Using the "Doctor" analogy, everyone that goes to college does not go on to become a Doctor.

Yes, you can apply some analogy, but it's not accurate. Doctors, Lawyers, Tyrants, whatever. Men divide. Men lord over others. Men want to see themself better than others.

I've come across quite few people who appear to show this weakness, the need to devaluate other people in some way, as a internal self affirmation.

Jesus makes us one. Not that some are "more one" than others, or something like that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But other passages are, for example 2 Peter is written to those who have obtained (legchano) By Divine lot, the higher calling of becoming a saint like unto the Apostles.

Interesting! So then 2 Peter is not meant for "the faithful". Wow!

Where exactly do you see "divine lot" in that passage, and that to separate Christians into a "lower" and "higher" group? Because in all the years I've been studying those verses, I've never seen that, and in fact, what I see is that Peter is emphasizing the unification of our faith. It seems to me that you are reading this passage exactly backwards, inserting this idea of a divine lot that applies to some Christians.

Are you then saying that this is not given to those whom you call "the faithful"?

2 Peter 1:2-4 KJV
2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Are these promises not to ALL of God's children?

And this:

Something for the "saints" to do, but not "the faithful"?

Hardly!

This distinction, I know several who promote but. But it is no wise in Scripture, which actually refutes the idea fully.

Much love!

 

[marks]

and that way is the way of Love (Agape) which is what marks a saint.

And it is the earmark of the disciple. You parse needlessly.

John 13:35 KJV
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.


Much love!

 

[marks]

notice how Paul transitions to chapter 13..... "But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." (1 Corinthians 12:31),

This is one of those passages which can be read either way equally well. "You do earnestly covet the greater gifts, and yet I will show you a more excellent way". Or just the same, "You are to earnestly covet the greater gifts, even yet I show you a more excellent way".

And interestingly, both readings lead you to the same place, "earnestly desiring the best gifts". And either way, Paul says, I show you a more excellent way.

Who is he showing that to? And why?

He is showing it to all of us, we ALL are to love. That is the most excellent way to do anything.

If you were to accept 2 Peter being to all the Christians, all who have obtained this same precious faith that they had, you would see we are ALL instructed to add Christian Love.

Are you likewise suggesting this letter also was written to some and not all Christians? I don't think that myself. It's all of us, because we are all one in Christ. Is Christ divided?

Why is Paul "showing a more excellent way", if in fact God selects who will be saints, and that puts this love in them?

I think the very best thing we can do, when we think about Christian love, is to examine ourselves, to see, are we loving as we ought?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

internal self affirmation.

To say not all who go to college become doctors is not self affirmation but rather the reality of it all. Some people believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, Have a life saving faith, but are not involved in ministry in any way, nor are they called upon to give their testimony in the way a saint is. That is just the reality of it. Most Christians die of old age, and normal age related illness, not at the hand of persecutors or being condemned for their beliefs. Most do not face the "fiery trial" Peter Speaks of in his first epistle, some do. This is of God's choosing not ours.

You have a lot to learn about the Christian journey if you do not understand this. Most in the fundamentalist background label this as "becoming disciples" as in count the cost of becoming one....AKA discipleship. It is the high calling of Christ Jesus. You do not even see this in your theology.

When one member suffers in the body of Christ we all suffer. This distinction has absolutely nothing to do with "Lording over" other believers as you imply but about those who stand in the gap for the whole body of Christ and face the persecution for the whole as an ensample of the new birth in Christ Jesus. We Honor them, but they do not Lord over anyone for the calling of a saint is not done by merit but by the grace of God. Any of us could be called to make the saintly sacrifice. When a body is wounded, the skin is cut, the blood cells rush to the wound and clean the wound, and other blood cells sacrifice their life to clot the wound, so as to save the life of the Body. This is who the saints are. The faithful are the internal organs of the body which the saints protect. This understanding brings unity and not division, Agape Love is the sacrifice of the saints for the body. That is to Love one another as Christ loved us, sacrificially, In that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Have you ever read the martyrdom of Polycarp? You should if you have not. Here is a link if you have not....
The Martyrdom of Polycarp (Lightfoot translation) (earlychristianwritings.com)

 

[marks]

To say not all who go to college become doctors is not self affirmation but rather the reality of it all.

Really, is this what you are stuck on? I'm not talking about human institutions.

Much love!

 

[Stumpmaster]

The equating of saints with all born again believers is the big error of Protestantism.

One of the many errors of Catholicism, Roman and Anglo, is the use of the word saint as a title which is not Scriptural. Rather, all those who come to Christ and are washed and cleansed of their sins by His precious blood are saints.

1Co 1:2 To the ekklesia of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

 

[David H.]

One of the many errors of Catholicism, Roman and Anglo, is the use of the word saint as a title which is not Scriptural. Rather, all those who come to Christ and are washed and cleansed of their sins by His precious blood are saints.

1Co 1:2 To the ekklesia of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

As a reaction to the RCC and its veneration of saints and prayers to the saints, Protestantism removed the distinction between the faithful and the saints as is indicative of your comment. This error is the cause for the division between the Calvinist and Arminian wings of the church. in the verse you quoted, again, there are two groups, Those "called to be saints" and "all in every place that call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord" (all the faithful).

Someone can go through their whole life and be faithful unto the LORD and not be called upon to make the saintly sacrifice, In fact the majority of us do. While others are called upon to make the sacrifice.

 

[David H.]

Really, is this what you are stuck on? I'm not talking about human institutions.

i Amusing analogies to help you understand, apparently this is above your comprehension? Paul used these analogies as well referring to the church as the Body of Christ.

 

[Stumpmaster]

As a reaction to the RCC and its veneration of saints and prayers to the saints, Protestantism removed the distinction between the faithful and the saints as is indicative of your comment. This error is the cause for the division between the Calvinist and Arminian wings of the church. in the verse you quoted, again, there are two groups, Those "called to be saints" and "all in every place that call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord" (all the faithful).

Someone can go through their whole life and be faithful unto the LORD and not be called upon to make the saintly sacrifice, In fact the majority of us do. While others are called upon to make the sacrifice.

In Scripture saints are those who are sanctified by the blood of Christ. Any extra-biblical doctrines to the contrary are indicative of deceptive spirits at work.

 

[David H.]

In Scripture saints are those who are sanctified by the blood of Christ. Any extra-biblical doctrines to the contrary are indicative of deceptive spirits at work.

Where in scripture?
According to the OT, the saints were the priestly Levites, The People who obeyed and followed them were called the faithful as in Hosea 11:12 "Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints."

Saint, by definition is those set apart of the whole. A Saint in the body of Christ is one set apart from the Body of Christ. Not only does Ephesians 1:1 make this distinction but so too does Colossians 1:2..... Look carefully.....

To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why does Paul over and over again separate the faithful and the saints? I Invite you to do a study on the word saints as used by the Apostles and you will see this distinction and how it makes a difference in the conflict posed in the OP, Here is a link to the Strong's concordance of the verses that Speak of saints, read them and Pray for the Holy Ghost to teach you.
KJV Search Results for "saints" (blueletterbible.org)

I Would rather have you discover this yourself than to try and convince you to go against Protestant Dogma, which is the view most evangelicals hold to.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Not once..man has self will but it is not free.

A lot of confidence is displayed here with very little facts.

“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;" - Deut. 30:19

The fact that God a) gives us options to choose from and b) recommends that we choose the best option automatically implies free will is involved here on the part of human beings. God doesn't force people to do things. He lets us decide which option to choose, even though doing the right thing is always the better option. Choosing to do the wrong thing carries its own sets of consequences, but there are still consequences that results from choosing to do the opposite of what the right thing is.

If we didn't have free will, we'd be robots who were automatically programmed to do what God commanded. God allowing this world to be a chaotic, illogical, irrational mess is clear evidence that free will exists. If free will didn't exist, this world would've already been the kind of world God wanted it to be millennia ago.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Where in scripture?
According to the OT, the saints were the priestly Levites, The People who obeyed and followed them were called the faithful as in Hosea 11:12 "Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints."

Saint, by definition is those set apart of the whole. A Saint in the body of Christ is one set apart from the Body of Christ. Not only does Ephesians 1:1 make this distinction but so too does Colossians 1:2..... Look carefully.....

To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why does Paul over and over again separate the faithful and the saints? I Invite you to do a study on the word saints as used by the Apostles and you will see this distinction and how it makes a difference in the conflict posed in the OP, Here is a link to the Strong's concordance of the verses that Speak of saints, read them and Pray for the Holy Ghost to teach you.
KJV Search Results for "saints" (blueletterbible.org)

I Would rather have you discover this yourself than to try and convince you to go against Protestant Dogma, which is the view most evangelicals hold to.

As one of God's saints I have no interest in the doctrinal error that denies that all those in the body of Christ are saints.
Quote:
The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.” "…Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem" (Acts 9:13). "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda" (Acts 9:32). "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons …“ (Acts 26:10). There is only one instance of the singular use, and that is "Greet every saint in Christ Jesus…" (Philippians 4:21). In Scripture there are 67 uses of the plural “saints” compared to only one use of the singular word “saint.” Even in that one instance, a plurality of saints is in view: “…every saint…” (Philippians 4:21).

The idea of the word “saints” is a group of people set apart for the Lord and His kingdom. There are three references referring to godly character of saints: "that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints …" (Romans 16:2). "For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12). "But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints" (Ephesians 5:3).

Therefore, scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christians are saints—and at the same time are called to be saints. First Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly: “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the biblical description and calling of the saints.

How does the Roman Catholic understanding of “saints” compare with the biblical teaching? Not very well. In Roman Catholic theology, the saints are in heaven. In the Bible, the saints are on earth. In Roman Catholic teaching, a person does not become a saint unless he/she is “beatified” or “canonized” by the Pope or prominent bishop. In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint. In Roman Catholic practice, the saints are revered, prayed to, and in some instances, worshiped. In the Bible, saints are called to revere, worship, and pray to God alone. [ What are Christian saints according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org ]

 

[David H.]

As one of God's saints I have no interest in the doctrinal error that denies that all those in the body of Christ are saints.

Christian saints according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org ]

I am very aware of what Protestant dogma is regarding this topic, so there is no need to quote them. I Would rather have you actually read the scriptures and be taught by the Holy Spirit what the Truth is, He will guide you into all Truth. If You are not familiar with this pray the Prayer in Psalm 25:5. This is the meat of the word, if you can digest it?

 

[David H.]

How does the Roman Catholic understanding of “saints” compare with the biblical teaching? Not very well. In Roman Catholic theology, the saints are in heaven. In the Bible, the saints are on earth. In Roman Catholic teaching, a person does not become a saint unless he/she is “beatified” or “canonized” by the Pope or prominent bishop. In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint. In Roman Catholic practice, the saints are revered, prayed to, and in some instances, worshiped. In the Bible, saints are called to revere, worship, and pray to God alone.

BTW, I am not a Catholic nor is what I am proposing here Based on the Catholic veneration of the saints and the heresies that involved.

 

[marks]

i Amusing analogies to help you understand, apparently this is above your comprehension? Paul used these analogies as well referring to the church as the Body of Christ.

Paul never used such an analogy to divide the church into "greater" and "lesser" Christians, he wrote of our unity in Christ.

I do in fact understand what you are doing. In your constant stream of vain denigrations you reveal your need for such a self-affirmation. If you are willing to receive this, and grow from it.

Much love!