An Omniscient God Negates Free Will

[Ronald David Bruno]

FREE WILL

If man had free will, then he could freely do anything he wanted. But his actions have consequences. "The wages of sin is death", so we are either slaves to God or slaves to Satan. Does that sound free?
If it was truly free, then at death, there would be no judgment, our spirits could freely leavebour bodies and choose to float off into whatever realm we wanted, visit heaven, thebother side of the universe or stick around and haunt some of our foes for awhile. There would be no restrictions, no rules, freedom.
The whole concept of God's Law sets up His creatures for a life mixed with obedience and disobedience. You cannot escape it. We are to gain the knowledge of Good and Evil so that we can appreciate and know God. God created evil, which can be translated as disasters, troubles, calamities.
The whole concept of God's Sovereignty simply means He is in control. All prophecy could not be fulfilled with hair splitting accuracy unless trillions of "our choices and actions" were predestined, pre- determined. BUT WAIT, I am only implying that the significant choices that lead somewhere are the ones I'm talking about; not whether you wear jeans or a suit or eat a burger or spagetti -- the significant moves that are part of His overall plan are ordained - they have to be, otherwise prophecy could not pan out. The Bible says about Jerimiah, "before you were born, I knew you". His life was mapped out, He could not have gone another way and so did exactly what God ordained him to do.
Judas was born to do his deed as well and several prophecies prove this. The significant events are planned.
God has every move that Putin is making or will male in check. There are no surprises with God and they arenkeading usbinto the Great Tribulation! We cannot screw up His plan because we made the wrong choices; as if He would then have to rearrange His plan every single moment in history. All our blunders and sin is factored into His plan.
Actually, most of the time we are not making signicant moves; but what we think is not significant could be to someone else. An encouraging word, a good deed, advice given could change that person's direction. That is when the Holy Spirit is moving and working through us.

 

[Adam]

Wonder why society is completely falling apart? People in larger numbers now are disbanding all those beliefs that previously held society together. Doesn't mean that our parents (parents parents ect) beliefs where better. We are living in consequence of their beliefs, and the next generation will live with the consequences of ours.

Faith and righteousness will never belong to the masses, it is something that requires a lifetime of seeking. There is a reason why Jesus called it the narrow path.

 

[I.O.U]

Do you use a screwdriver to open a sealed crate or a crowbar to unscrew screws? Crude topics require crude tools. Fine topics require fine tools. Physics requires observation, metaphysics requires reason.

Job 35
5 Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.

6 If thou sinnest, what doest thou against him? or if thy transgressions be multiplied, what doest thou unto him?

7 If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand?

God exists whether you believe or not

Faith and righteousness will never belong to the masses, it is something that requires a lifetime of seeking. There is a reason why Jesus called it the narrow path.

No, I disagree, the power of faith can only come from the masses. A belief always needs a friend (That is the only way a belief can survive) Facts don't need anyone or anything else to remain true.

 

[I.O.U]

I think I better log-out for a while.

 

[Adam]

No, I disagree, the power of faith can only come from the masses. A belief always needs a friend (That is the only way a belief can survive) Facts don't need anyone or anything else to remain true.

And belief in a fact?

 

[Dropship]

You already posted this silliness in page 7 of this thread (post #122) Repeating it doesn't make it any more credible. As had to be pointed out to you the words came from the angel not directly from God. There can be no free will if you are forced or cajoled into making a decision.

Logic it out mate; if God ALREADY KNEW that Abraham would be willing to kill his son, there'd have been no need for God to put him to the test..
And angels are messengers between God and the human race, so the angel simply told Abraham that God was pleased he hadn't flunked the test..

 

[I.O.U]

And belief in a fact?

This concept is marginally different from how religious institutions looks at particular facts outside their belief based truth. It should be a given that the facts around our knowledge of gravity, or our understanding of the universal constant of the speed of light remain open for far more elegantly understanding. But that would mean we have to be open(willing) to change our understanding (Even completely) Does the Bible offer anyone that? Does any faith based religion? Possibly, but that way of believing is not usually welcome.

 

[Adam]

This concept is marginally different from how religious institutions looks at particular facts outside their belief based truth. It should be a given that the facts around our knowledge of gravity, or our understanding of the universal constant of the speed of light remain open for far more elegantly understanding. But that would mean we have to be open(willing) to change our understanding (Even completely) Does the Bible offer anyone that? Does any faith based religion? Possibly, but that way of believing is not usually welcome.

Christianity has a history of scholarship 2 millenia old, much of which is based off of secular greek logic as well (with origins going back before Christ to Plato). For example, Origen of Alexandria wrote over 2000 texts in his life, which is all based on rational ideals AND supported by scriptures. Throughout Christianity's history, there has been an understanding among its scholars that the Bible's ideas and interpretations must be provable outside of the Bible through reason first.

The nature of consciousness is inherently metaphysical because consciousness is formless. Therefore, they can only be understood through rationality. Christianity provides the most thorough framework of any of mankind's faiths for the understanding of formless concepts. So yes the knowledge is out there.

 

[I.O.U]

Christianity has a history of scholarship 2 millenia old, much of which is based off of secular greek logic as well (with origins going back before Christ to Plato). For example, Origen of Alexandria wrote over 2000 texts in his life, which is all based on rational ideals AND supported by scriptures. Throughout Christianity's history, there has been an understanding among its scholars that the Bible's ideas and interpretations must be provable outside of the Bible through reason first.

The nature of consciousness is inherently metaphysical because consciousness is formless. Therefore, they can only be understood through rationality. Christianity provides the most thorough framework of any of mankind's faiths for the understanding of formless concepts. So yes the knowledge is out there.

Could you explain how believing straight-up helps you understand life, the world, the universe, or God, or anything.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Logic it out mate; if God ALREADY KNEW that Abraham would be willing to kill his son, there'd have been no need for God to put him to the test..
And angels are messengers between God and the human race, so the angel simply told Abraham that God was pleased he hadn't flunked the test..

Logic says an omniscient God knows the future, otherwise prophetic scripture would not pan out with such precise accuracy. God wanted Abraham to demonstrate His faith and trust, not for God's assurance but for Abraham's assurance and ours. That He would provide a way, a solution to his dilemma and ours, A SACRIFICIAL LAMB.
It is also interesting that Jesus, THE SACRIFICIAL LAMB, was sacrificed on the same hill, Mt. MORIAH, 2000 years later.

 

[Adam]

Could you explain how believing straight-up helps you understand life, the world, the universe, or God, or anything.

Plato was able to figure everything out hundreds of years before Christ. Confucius was also able to get pretty far with just reason alone. Having someone who can change the nature of reality walking around and just outright telling you the answers helps a lot too.

 

[I.O.U]

Plato was able to figure everything out hundreds of years before Christ. Confucius was also able to get pretty far with just reason alone. Having someone who can change the nature of reality walking around and just outright telling you the answers helps a lot too.

I am sitting here thinking, thinking. Got to reply now, and which way would the best way. Lots of ways, lots of (I am getting distracted by a television program about space) Okay so we have the new dark matter, dark energy, phantom energy, woohoo! The universe is heading into a complete frozen death. It will probably all mean something else in the next generation.

 

[I.O.U]

For those Christians who believe in the freewill doctrine, that God will not interfere with the choices we make in our lives. How do you honour God in that respect when you interact with other people's lives and beliefs? Lives and(or) beliefs that are in opposition to your own. What about making disciples of the nation's (As Jesus pointed out you must follow) That seems to me messing with other people's freewill.

 

[I.O.U]

Somewhere along the line this all has to stop. We are far greater than what we believe. I think nature itself is much more than we believe it to be. Besides it made you and I (Because you didn't make you) no one here made anything, and we're all occupants in this universe temporarily. We better all wise up soon, or I fear nature will just roll over us.

 

[Adam]

For those Christians who believe in the freewill doctrine, that God will not interfere with the choices we make in our lives. How do you honour God in that respect when you interact with other people's lives and beliefs? Lives and(or) beliefs that are in opposition to your own. What about making disciples of the nation's (As Jesus pointed out you must follow) That seems to me messing with other people's freewill.

Free will doesn't mean a person behaves completely randomly, freewill means a person behaves rationally according to his own nature and knowledge or ignorance. If people behaved randomly, Jesus wouldn't have been able to predict Peter's denial or Judas' betrayal. Freewill is the freedom to choose our own idea of good. But being limited creatures, we have our own irrationalities which God lets us persist in, until such a time as our flaws become so manifest that we recoil at our own selves.

God is the rain and man is the field. The rain upon the field produces either fruits or weeds. God sends the same rain upon the righteous and the wicked - life, death, sorrow, joy, pain, pleasure, etc. and what it produces in a person depends upon the nature of a man. In a righteous man, whatever falls on him will produce good things - hardship produces repentence, plenty produces charity, etc. In one who resists the will of god, these will produce bad things - hardship produces bitterness, plenty produces greed and hedonism.

It is better that a person sees the good in all things because it is better for their own peace of mind and for those around them, but everyone is right according to their own eyes and can't be changed against their will.

 

[I.O.U]

Free will doesn't mean a person behaves completely randomly, freewill means a person behaves rationally according to his own nature and knowledge or ignorance. If people behaved randomly, Jesus wouldn't have been able to predict Peter's denial or Judas' betrayal. Freewill is the freedom to choose our own idea of good. But being limited creatures, we have our own irrationalities which God lets us persist in, until such a time as our flaws become so manifest that we recoil at our own selves.

God is the rain and man is the field. The rain upon the field produces either fruits or weeds. God sends the same rain upon the righteous and the wicked - life, death, sorrow, joy, pain, pleasure, etc. and what it produces in a person depends upon the nature of a man. In a righteous man, whatever falls on him will produce good things - hardship produces repentence, plenty produces charity, etc. In one who resists the will of god, these will produce bad things - hardship produces bitterness, plenty produces greed and hedonism.

It is better that a person sees the good in all things because it is better for their own peace of mind and for those around them, but everyone is right according to their own eyes and can't be changed against their will.

Why would it make a difference how human beings acted with their freewill (Randomly or not) God knows the beginning to the end, so, why would human beings making decisions in absolute chaos prevent God's (Plan?)
of freewill? Is freewill in God's plan? Wouldn't having freewill generally mess with plans altogether. It's like how my parents thought they were encouraging me to live free when they said "Go out there and live your dreams" Oh no! Not that dream, just these dreams.

 

[Adam]

Why would it make a difference how human beings acted with their freewill (Randomly or not) God knows the beginning to the end, so, why would human beings making decisions in absolute chaos prevent God's (Plan?)
of freewill? Is freewill in God's plan? Wouldn't having freewill generally mess with plans altogether. It's like how my parents thought they were encouraging me to live free when they said "Go out there and live your dreams" Oh no! Not that dream, just these dreams.

The end is the same as the beginning. Everything started with God and everything will return to God.

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

1 Corinthians 15
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The real question is - why do anything at all? God created the universe to experience it. Do you have any better ideas what to do with eternity than to experience every possible experience again and again for all time? It's about the journey, not the destination. Without the depths of despair the heights of bliss would be meaningless, but nonetheless, it is better to experience bliss than despair, so it is better that suffering be redeemed than to persist in it. Nonetheless, we are able to create our own existence to experience it as we desire.

 

[I.O.U]

The end is the same as the beginning. Everything started with God and everything will return to God.

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

1 Corinthians 15
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The real question is - why do anything at all? God created the universe to experience it. Do you have any better ideas what to do with eternity than to experience every possible experience again and again for all time? It's about the journey, not the destination. Without the depths of despair the heights of bliss would be meaningless, but nonetheless, it is better to experience bliss than despair, so it is better that suffering be redeemed than to persist in it. Nonetheless, we are able to create our own existence to experience it as we desire.

Sounds like a double edged coin. I guess it is the most decadent societies that fall the hardest, while the most dilapidated societies fight the hardest to gain decadence. They say Rome wasn't built in a day, but did it fall in a day?

 

[I.O.U]

I have a ominous feeling that our computer systems are already self aware.

 

[I.O.U]

I have a ominous feeling that our computer systems are already self aware.

I really should say (some systems)