ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[Barrd]

Hebrews 6.4 is interesting regarding the OSAS argument...seems Paul is saying if you are saved, and then fall away (sin), there is no further repentance, and/or you have never been saved in the first instance...why would a person sin (transgress God's law) after actually receiving the gift of salvation?

Because we are still human, Heretoeternity. Even Paul had a problem fighting his sinful flesh:

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 

[DPMartin]

Because it says, in the very next verse:

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

You do realize that this was all one discourse...Jesus didn't separate verses.

Does it say the false prophets love will wax could? No. Or does it say there will be false prophets because there will be iniquity and the love will wax cold?

You are correct that it’s a discourse that says there will be this, because of that. It doesn’t say this, is that, does it?

No wonder those who think Christians are fools and refuse to believe. Because so many so-called Christian can’t process simple logic and understanding. Note the same concept in the previous statement, people refuse to believe, because so-called Christian can’t process simple logic.

 

[DPMartin]

Friend, the "many" in verse 12 that Jesus referred to were not "false prophets", but grace saved, born-again saints. How do we know this to be true? Because they were partakers of "agape" love - which is "selfless, self sacrificing GODLY love" - which they allowed to grow cold because of willful, presumptuous, iniquitous, deliberate sin.

Do you realize that by claiming the "many" were "false prophets", you are actually claiming that selfish, self-centered, self-serving, self-absorbed "false prophets" are capable of receiving from God and imparting to others "agape" love? Sorry, but that's redonkulous.

No, sorry, I’m not your friend by any stretch of the imagination. Im not friend to anyone who seeks to twist scripture like you’ve tried to do here.
Your attempt to twist scripture in this posting, doesn’t warrant the effort to discuss it. Anyone can see when people will say anything to win the argument in there own view. If you can’t beat them with brilliance, then baffle them with house dump. Has been around a lot longer then you’ve been alive in the world. Ping Pong some one else.

 

[Barrd]

Does it say the false prophets love will wax could? No. Or does it say there will be false prophets because there will be iniquity and the love will wax cold?

You are correct that it’s a discourse that says there will be this, because of that. It doesn’t say this, is that, does it?

No wonder those who think Christians are fools and refuse to believe. Because so many so-called Christian can’t process simple logic and understanding. Note the same concept in the previous statement, people refuse to believe, because so-called Christian can’t process simple logic.

Let's look at the entire passage, then:

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

First, false prophets arise, and because of these false prophets, there will be sharp divisions among the brethren. And because of this, the love of many shall grow cold.

The situation that Jesus is describing here sounds very familiar, doesn't it?
All the infighting between different denominations, all the clashing "doctrines", all of this need to be "right" in our own eyes...

And the love that Jesus commanded us to have for one another has indeed, grown cold.

 

[Barrd]

No, sorry, I’m not your friend by any stretch of the imagination. Im not friend to anyone who seeks to twist scripture like you’ve tried to do here.
Your attempt to twist scripture in this posting, doesn’t warrant the effort to discuss it. Anyone can see when people will say anything to win the argument in there own view. If you can’t beat them with brilliance, then baffle them with house dump. Has been around a lot longer then you’ve been alive in the world. Ping Pong some one else.

I rest my case...

DP, I'm not sure, but I suspect that this post may be a violation of site rules. It is, to say the least, very rude.
Surely, you can say "I do not agree with you" without all the animosity?

EDIT:

I checked your profile. You do not provide your age or your birthdate, so we have no idea how long you've been around.
I will tell you plainly...I am about to celebrate my 65th birthday...and I have been reading the Bible since I was 12.
That is 53 years...a very long time.

 

[DPMartin]

The question here is this:

Once their love becomes cold, are the people Jesus is talking about here still going to heaven?

Remember, they did have love, otherwise, it could not have grown cold. Why did it grow cold? Because of iniquity.

Honestly, it isn't rocket science. Even simple peasants, such as fishermen or carpenters...or little old ladies from Alabama...can understand it.

So much for OSAS...

Or does it mean from generation to generation the love grows cold toward the Lord, you know like with Israel or the USA. Were does it even imply that He is talking about a single person or persons. The whole subject matter is in reference to the future from where they were in history. It does start with:

　
Mt:24:3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

　
And the discourse as you call it, starts with that in mind (generation to generation). Anything other than that view would be from a false Christian, trying to twist the scriptures, to promote doubt in the hearts of those who are justifiably confidant in the Salvation they have received in Christ.

To what good is promise if one can’t have confidence or expectation (hope) of the fulfillment thereof. Especially when it comes to the Lord God’s deliverance of His in the case of death. If a man’s salvation depends on himself, and what he does, then Lord Jesus wouldn’t of had to do what He did. Because God would have already given man the ability to overcome death on his own. Talk is cheap and power is power and the Power of God is a necessity. The bottom line is, it doesn’t matter the man and his condition, what matters is the power of God and His Grace and Mercy to give it. The fools try to remember sin, the wise seek Grace and Mercy. And the Lord did state that He would forget it, and it would be of memory no more. So where is the value of rememberance of sin, and the honoring of it's effects like it's a great power, unless it's from the none believer?

 

[DPMartin]

I rest my case...

DP, I'm not sure, but I suspect that this post may be a violation of site rules. It is, to say the least, very rude.
Surely, you can say "I do not agree with you" without all the animosity?

EDIT:

I checked your profile. You do not provide your age or your birthdate, so we have no idea how long you've been around.
I will tell you plainly...I am about to celebrate my 65th birthday...and I have been reading the Bible since I was 12.
That is 53 years...a very long time.

Rude? If you are offended easy or seek to take offence at the drop of a hat because you don’t care for someone else’s beliefs. Whatever. It’s not like I used foul words or something.

The person I response to is intelligent enough to post here with arguments, true or false. But dishonest use of words can be pointed out. Unless you think everyone here should be treated like they are dumper then a bag of hammers. Otherwise the person’s postings are deliberate and thought through, at least to some degree. I believe the person is dishonest in his uses and I told him so in so many words. Agreeing to disagree is one thing, and twisting things just to continue arguing without expecting some reference to that fact, is another.

　
Hey everybody she checked my profile I’m worried now.

If you noticed there are many people here that haven’t taken the time to fill out the profile info. So what. It’s been my experience that people lie on those anyway. For all I know you could be a 13 year old. There are churches that have been around preaching and teaching for generations and are completely off base in their understanding of scripture and how it is that Jesus the Christ has fulfilled it. What’s your statement of age or years of reading prove? There are many older then you claim, that aren’t in any kind of relationship with the Living God and many of those spent most of their lives attending Christian churches.

 

[Barrd]

Or does it mean from generation to generation the love grows cold toward the Lord, you know like with Israel or the USA. Were does it even imply that He is talking about a single person or persons. The whole subject matter is in reference to the future from where they were in history. It does start with:

　
Mt:24:3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

　
And the discourse as you call it, starts with that in mind (generation to generation). Anything other than that view would be from a false Christian, trying to twist the scriptures, to promote doubt in the hearts of those who are justifiably confidant in the Salvation they have received in Christ.

To what good is promise if one can’t have confidence or expectation (hope) of the fulfillment thereof. Especially when it comes to the Lord God’s deliverance of His in the case of death. If a man’s salvation depends on himself, and what he does, then Lord Jesus wouldn’t of had to do what He did. Because God would have already given man the ability to overcome death on his own. Talk is cheap and power is power and the Power of God is a necessity. The bottom line is, it doesn’t matter the man and his condition, what matters is the power of God and His Grace and Mercy to give it. The fools try to remember sin, the wise seek Grace and Mercy. And the Lord did state that He would forget it, and it would be of memory no more. So where is the value of rememberance of sin, and the honoring of it's effects like it's a great power, unless it's from the none believer?

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Right off the bat, we are told about "false Christs"...or "false Anointed Ones". Only ONE could ever truly claim a "special anointing from God".
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Want to see these "false Christs"? Turn on your T.V.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Men always seem to be at war, somewhere, over something. Just pick up a newspaper...

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Well, here in the United States, we aren't to the point of delivering one another up to be afflicted or killed...at least, not yet. However, there does seem to be quite a bit of hatred toward...and even between...Christians.
These foolish debates are a case in point.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Yes...false teachers, teaching all sorts of things that Christ never taught, and that the First Century Church were not aware of.


And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Now, it seems fairly obvious that these false Christs and false prophets did not have any real love to begin with. It's also obvious that those who are betraying one another, and hating one another, and delivering each other up to be afflicted or killed are not infused with Godly love. So, obviously, since they didn't have any love to begin with, they can't be the "many" this verse is referring to.
These can only be Christians who have...or at least did have....real love in their hearts. But because of iniquity...that is, false Christs, wars, false teachers, persecution, etc...their love has grown cold. Their hearts have become cold and dead.

Now, the question being asked is this:
Can those whose hearts have become cold and dead still find a place in God's Kingdom?

 

[Barrd]

Rude? If you are offended easy or seek to take offence at the drop of a hat because you don’t care for someone else’s beliefs. Whatever. It’s not like I used foul words or something.

The person I response to is intelligent enough to post here with arguments, true or false. But dishonest use of words can be pointed out. Unless you think everyone here should be treated like they are dumper then a bag of hammers. Otherwise the person’s postings are deliberate and thought through, at least to some degree. I believe the person is dishonest in his uses and I told him so in so many words. Agreeing to disagree is one thing, and twisting things just to continue arguing without expecting some reference to that fact, is another.

　
Hey everybody she checked my profile I’m worried now.

If you noticed there are many people here that haven’t taken the time to fill out the profile info. So what. It’s been my experience that people lie on those anyway. For all I know you could be a 13 year old. There are churches that have been around preaching and teaching for generations and are completely off base in their understanding of scripture and how it is that Jesus the Christ has fulfilled it. What’s your statement of age or years of reading prove? There are many older then you claim, that aren’t in any kind of relationship with the Living God and many of those spent most of their lives attending Christian churches.

I'd be more impressed with this, if you could actually spell the word "offense".
When you are deliberately offensive, as you were in your post to Phoneman, you should not be surprised if someone is offended.

You accuse him of "twisting" scripture...however, it seems that it is you who are twisting the scripture. You are the one who wants to claim that the "many" here are the false prophets. I'm not sure exactly how you came to that conclusion.

I don't usually bother to check anyone's profile until they go on about how "experienced" they are. I can't think of any good reason to hide one's age or date of birth...however, if you're going to claim your years of experience, you ought to at least let us know how many years of experience you are claiming.

As for the aspersions on my honesty, I will do you a favor and ignore that slur on my character.

Once.

However, continuing your ad hominem attack will result in a report. Let's just debate the issues...what do you say?


EDIT:

Oh, and thank you for mistaking me for a 13 year old. I know I look young for my age...but that is a bit over the top...

 

[ATP]

Hebrews 6.4 is interesting regarding the OSAS argument...seems Paul is saying if you are saved, and then fall away (sin), there is no further repentance, and/or you have never been saved in the first instance...why would a person sin (transgress God's law) after actually receiving the gift of salvation?

Is God in contradiction here...

Heb 6:6 NIV and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Heb 10:10-12 NIV And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Heb 10:26 NIV If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

- ATP

 

[Dave24]

There are no contradictions in the bible.
God is a God of order...

What you have here are most likely examples of ideas lost in translation.

I would say, in my opinion...

1) Hebrews 6:6 and considering the context of the whole chapter. These are persons who were given the special gift of heavenly hope...a gift only granted to a select few.
Once they turn their back on God they lose this special gift.

2) Hebrews 10:10-12 Jesus sacrificed one sacrifice once only, but this sacrifice will continue for always. Thus the value of the sacrifice will last...

3) Hebrews 10:26 Just as it says, once you learn God's requirements/laws and you disobey then you will suffer the result. Although the sacrifice is still there if you repent and change your ways.

 

[Barrd]

There are no contradictions in the bible.
God is a God of order...

What you have here are most likely examples of ideas lost in translation.

I would say, in my opinion...

1) Hebrews 6:6 and considering the context of the whole chapter. These are persons who were given the special gift of heavenly hope...a gift only granted to a select few.
Once they turn their back on God they lose this special gift.

2) Hebrews 10:10-12 Jesus sacrificed one sacrifice once only, but this sacrifice will continue for always. Thus the value of the sacrifice will last...

3) Hebrews 10:26 Just as it says, once you learn God's requirements/laws and you disobey then you will suffer the result. Although the sacrifice is still there if you repent and change your ways.

 

[ATP]

There are no contradictions in the bible.
God is a God of order...

What you have here are most likely examples of ideas lost in translation.

I would say, in my opinion...

1) Hebrews 6:6 and considering the context of the whole chapter. These are persons who were given the special gift of heavenly hope...a gift only granted to a select few.
Once they turn their back on God they lose this special gift.

2) Hebrews 10:10-12 Jesus sacrificed one sacrifice once only, but this sacrifice will continue for always. Thus the value of the sacrifice will last...

3) Hebrews 10:26 Just as it says, once you learn God's requirements/laws and you disobey then you will suffer the result. Although the sacrifice is still there if you repent and change your ways.

Well, God is in contradiction because if Jesus paid the sin penalty, but yet there is no more sacrifice for sins if we sin too much then Jesus lied and did not die for all sins. If we can lose our salvation then Jesus lied and did not pay the sin penalty. What else did Jesus lie about?

 

[StanJ]

There are no contradictions in the bible.
God is a God of order...

What you have here are most likely examples of ideas lost in translation.

I would say, in my opinion...

1) Hebrews 6:6 and considering the context of the whole chapter. These are persons who were given the special gift of heavenly hope...a gift only granted to a select few.
Once they turn their back on God they lose this special gift.

2) Hebrews 10:10-12 Jesus sacrificed one sacrifice once only, but this sacrifice will continue for always. Thus the value of the sacrifice will last...

3) Hebrews 10:26 Just as it says, once you learn God's requirements/laws and you disobey then you will suffer the result. Although the sacrifice is still there if you repent and change your ways.

1. Sorry, but there is NO indication that these people were special, just saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, which only those who are/were, would recognize and understand what Luke states here.
2. Luke was talking about the difference between the OC and NC here, and confirms later on in 10:10 that this happens only once for ALL sin and ALL time.
3. Yes, if we deliberately, or continue in the lifestyle we were in prior to salvation.

 

[Phoneman777]

If Matt 24:12 wanted to clarify agape love being separated from us, shouldn't they of used chórizó instead of psuchó.

psuchó: to breathe, blow, to make cool
Original Word: ψύχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: psuchó
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo'-kho)
Short Definition: I cool, grow cold
Definition: I cool, pass: I grow cold.

chórizó: to separate, divide
Original Word: χωρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: chórizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kho-rid'-zo)
Short Definition: I separate, depart
Definition: (a) I separate, put apart, (mid. or pass: I separate myself, depart, withdraw.

That's an assumption on your part and a rediculous one at that. Rather, the text is crystal clear that the agape of the "many" saints grows cold and dead, Saints are known by "agape perfected in them", not this cold, dead agape which disqualifies these former saints from being among the number of the saints when they go marching in. Deal with it, bro.

 

[Phoneman777]

No, sorry, I’m not your friend by any stretch of the imagination. Im not friend to anyone who seeks to twist scripture like you’ve tried to do here.
Your attempt to twist scripture in this posting, doesn’t warrant the effort to discuss it. Anyone can see when people will say anything to win the argument in there own view. If you can’t beat them with brilliance, then baffle them with house dump. Has been around a lot longer then you’ve been alive in the world. Ping Pong some one else.

Friend, it saddens me that you have fallen victim to the absolutely supersonically ludicrous idea that lost people are capable of recieving and imparting AGAPE. So looking forward to when Jesus comes back to cleanse His church of such stupidity.

 

[Phoneman777]

Rude? If you are offended easy or seek to take offence at the drop of a hat because you don’t care for someone else’s beliefs. Whatever. It’s not like I used foul words or something.

The person I response to is intelligent enough to post here with arguments, true or false. But dishonest use of words can be pointed out. Unless you think everyone here should be treated like they are dumper then a bag of hammers. Otherwise the person’s postings are deliberate and thought through, at least to some degree. I believe the person is dishonest in his uses and I told him so in so many words. Agreeing to disagree is one thing, and twisting things just to continue arguing without expecting some reference to that fact, is another.

　
Hey everybody she checked my profile I’m worried now.

If you noticed there are many people here that haven’t taken the time to fill out the profile info. So what. It’s been my experience that people lie on those anyway. For all I know you could be a 13 year old. There are churches that have been around preaching and teaching for generations and are completely off base in their understanding of scripture and how it is that Jesus the Christ has fulfilled it. What’s your statement of age or years of reading prove? There are many older then you claim, that aren’t in any kind of relationship with the Living God and many of those spent most of their lives attending Christian churches.

You refuse to acknowledge the operative word "AGAPE" here because you know full well that only saints are capable of partaking of it. Your OSAS ideas will prove themselves to be nothing more than a ropes of sand in the time of trouble.

 

[Phoneman777]

There are no contradictions in the bible.
God is a God of order...

What you have here are most likely examples of ideas lost in translation.

I would say, in my opinion...

1) Hebrews 6:6 and considering the context of the whole chapter. These are persons who were given the special gift of heavenly hope...a gift only granted to a select few.
Once they turn their back on God they lose this special gift.

2) Hebrews 10:10-12 Jesus sacrificed one sacrifice once only, but this sacrifice will continue for always. Thus the value of the sacrifice will last...

3) Hebrews 10:26 Just as it says, once you learn God's requirements/laws and you disobey then you will suffer the result. Although the sacrifice is still there if you repent and change your ways.

Amen, bro

 

[Phoneman777]

Well, God is in contradiction because if Jesus paid the sin penalty, but yet there is no more sacrifice for sins if we sin too much then Jesus lied and did not die for all sins. If we can lose our salvation then Jesus lied and did not pay the sin penalty. What else did Jesus lie about?

He certainly wasn't lying when He referred to the "many" as having allowed their agape to grow cold and dead. Unfortunately, there are those among us that actually conclude that Jesus was referring to LOST people when speaking of this agape of theirs. There are quadrupeds that have better cognitive skills than these Bible students, it seems.

 

[ATP]

That's an assumption on your part and a rediculous one at that. Rather, the text is crystal clear that the agape of the "many" saints grows cold and dead, Saints are known by "agape perfected in them", not this cold, dead agape which disqualifies these former saints from being among the number of the saints when they go marching in. Deal with it, bro.

He certainly wasn't lying when He referred to the "many" as having allowed their agape to grow cold and dead. Unfortunately, there are those among us that actually conclude that Jesus was referring to LOST people when speaking of this agape of theirs. There are quadrupeds that have better cognitive skills than these Bible students, it seems.

Of course you ignored post 167. Deal with it, bro.