ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[Phoneman777]

Thats the whole point, God has seeing it, if He has seeing it than it is done. God sees the future you dwell in the now, if God says you are saved, dont you believe Him?. Either you are saved or you are not, and if you dont believe you are than why are you here?? Why do you insist on laying stumbling blocks before those who do believe God. You know the "Faith" part requires one to believe.
Yes Faith thats how we believe. Still struggling to find christians that believe God, never thought it would be so difficult yet Christ said it would be.


In all His Love

Wrong. You and I are "being saved" as long as we are abiding in the Vine. Step outside of the Vine and you are cut off from "being saved". Remain outside the Vine and you will be eternally lost. Come back to the Vine and you will once again resume "being saved".

 

[Phoneman777]

Going back to the OP, I am not convinced that these 2 verses refute OSAS much less predestination (which I prefer to acknowledge over OSAS).

First off, the iniquity spoken of in matt 24 isn't general sin (which pethaps I mistakingly assume thats what phoneman is speaking of). There were dpecific things spoken of prior to verse 12. The biggest one is false teaching. So when God said there would be famine in the land not from the lack of food, but for the Word of God, it fits.

Second all this talk of agape love is a moot point because in many it died. Well, many are called but few are chosen.

I realize that verse is found in a parable earlier. No doubt sone will say its out of context because it was a slightly different situation, but its not out of context.

Realize that part of the iniquity us false teaching, but teaching nonetheless. No doubt they were called. After all, they can't wax cold if they never were warm.

But there are those that will endure and be saved. These are God's elect and according to the parallel scriptures in Mark, the chosen.

If you need proof that those that endure are the elect, please move on a few verses down in matt 24. Jesus is still on the same topic. Those that endure are the elect. They would br deceived by the false teaching, but they won't - it isn't possible for them to be deceived. Can't be done! They endure.

One of the possible reasons is that God is going to shorten those times for their (the elect's) sake. That doesn't mean necessarily that they will be deceived if God lets it go on. Perhaps God is just being merciful to those who won't ever be deceived.

Or maybe God cuts it short before they no longer can endure. Either way... God has his chosen.

In short: yes some can have agape love. That doesn't mean they are the chosen. And I trust everyone knows who does the choosing. And He who choses said he did it before the foundations of the world.

"Many are called but few are chosen" somehow disqualifies the "many" as former saints? The Biblical evidence is that the "many" were in fact chosen. Why? Because the Biblical definition of a "chosen, grace-saved. washed-in-the-blood, SAINT" is one who has:

• agape for God
• agape for man
• and agape perfected in them.

Unless you are willing to argue that the "lost" are capable of possessing the above agape love, the only conclusion that can be drawn from the text is that the "many" are no longer heaven bound because the agape they formerly possessed which qualified them as heaven bound saints is now cold and dead, which leaves them "agape-less" and now disqualifies them as saints leaving them no longer bound for heaven.

 

[mjrhealth]

Wrong. You and I are "being saved" as long as we are abiding in the Vine. Step outside of the Vine and you are cut off from "being saved". Remain outside the Vine and you will be eternally lost. Come back to the Vine and you will once again resume "being saved".

No we are saved, see because God has seeing it, unless of course you dont believe God. If you remove yourself from teh vine you cant be grafted back in, that requires you to reject Christ which means there is no second chance as He cant die a second time for you.

Heb_6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So you either are saved or you are not.

Why are you so mad at those who believe God unto salvation?? Its called faith....

 

[mjrhealth]

"Many are called but few are chosen" somehow disqualifies the "many" as former saints? The Biblical evidence is that the "many" were in fact chosen. W

Again you dont understand, Jesus calls many, many chooose to not heed His call, doesnt mean they are not saved, just that they will never fufill there pupose He had set for them. His sheep, the ones who belong to Him, has nothing to do with everyone else. And theere is one who is not listening.

 

[StanJ]

Salvation is a one time experience. Our walk is another matter and as Paul exhorts many time, we need to persevere and run the race. Only those that finish the race will receive the crown of Eternal life.

 

[Phoneman777]

No we are saved, see because God has seeing it, unless of course you dont believe God. If you remove yourself from teh vine you cant be grafted back in, that requires you to reject Christ which means there is no second chance as He cant die a second time for you.

Heb_6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
So you either are saved or you are not.

Why are you so mad at those who believe God unto salvation?? Its called faith....

No, you are wrong. The Greek construction of the texts actually means "being saved", not "saved". However, in order to keep the churches full of lost sinners who fill the collection plates, church leaders conveniently obscure this truth, because to preach that the unavoidable consequence of God's agape and grace is that we are transformed more and more daily into the image of Jesus is most disconcerting to those who would rather remain in the image of rebellious Satan while clinging to OSAS as their hope of salvation.

Mad? Righteously indignant is more appropriate, because OSAS is leading people to eternal damnation. It teaches that branches which through sin are separated from the Vine will be preserved from the fire anyway.

 

[Phoneman777]

Salvation is a one time experience. Our walk is another matter and as Paul exhorts many time, we need to persevere and run the race. Only those that finish the race will receive the crown of Eternal life.

What an unBiblical conclusion which denies the Greek construction of the New Testament. We are "being saved", which is future perfect tense referring to an ongoing process, not "saved already" which denies the Bible. I'd believe you if Jesus said, "Abiding in the Vine is not necessary, just as long as you at some point in the past were connected to that Vine."

 

[Phoneman777]

Again you dont understand, Jesus calls many, many chooose to not heed His call, doesnt mean they are not saved, just that they will never fufill there pupose He had set for them. His sheep, the ones who belong to Him, has nothing to do with everyone else. And theere is one who is not listening.

No, you don't understand that the "many" were once saints because they possessed agape, but are now ex-saints because their agape became cold and dead, and there ain't a one of us that is getting through the Pearly Gates unless we possess agape. God is not some cosmic rapist that will force Himself on those who no longer what anything to do with Him or continue in a surrendered relationship with Him. Get it? He isn't a cosmic rapist, though OSAS believers would have Him to be such, that they may carried by Him to heaven kicking and screaming and cursing Him and His authority.

 

[Phoneman777]

“But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved” (Matt 24:13).

The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" was invented by John Calvin during the Reformation. Under this theory, the Protestant believes that one is saved when he accepts Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. This is comforting - after all, who wouldn't want assurance? According to this view, true Christians are the ones who will persevere to the end. For those who accepted Christ during their lives but did not persevere to the end, the doctrine calls these people superficial Christians. So true Christians will go to heaven and superficial Christians will not. Not only is this teaching not Scriptural, it is difficult to accept the teaching on reason.

The only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian did not persevere to the end. Otherwise, the two types of Christians appear to be the same. The superficial Christian has all the earmarks of a true Christian except that he did not persevere. But this necessarily means that the true Christian cannot know that he really is a true Christian either until the end of his life. He, too, won't know whether his conversion was genuine until the end of his life. Therefore, despite all the talk about assurance, he cannot be sure.

This doctrine, therefore, actually gives its adherents less assurance of their salvation. It necessarily imposes upon them uncertainty until the end. The Catholic (and Scriptural) view, however, does give assurance to the believer that he is in fact currently saved (a true Christian), and that, if he perseveres to the end, he will be saved at death. We also know that God will give all the graces necessary for us to be faithful to the end (because of our freewill, the question is always whether we will accept the grace or not). Thus, Catholics know that it is theirs to lose. Protestant Calvinists don't even know whether it is theirs to begin with.

Assurance is at the crux of the issue. Protestants who refuse to give up sin need something to assure them that they are heaven bound, seeing that the Bible condemns such, so OSAS fills the bill. Praise God He gives victory over sin to anyone who makes up their mind to take hold of it, but OSAS allows one to believe he simultaneously walk the road to perdition and the path of righteousness. What a ridiculously stupid idea.

 

[FHII]

A cosmic rapist? Where are you coming up with this stuff? If someone walks away, of course they probably aren't part of thr chosen. They were called but not chosen. John said that those that go out from among weren't of us to begin with.

Then again, if they are chosen and predestinated, yes then God can bring them back into the fold.

 

[ATP]

A cosmic rapist? Where are you coming up with this stuff?

Phone doesn't understand God's Grace so...rape is a sin and God is sinless. You see how the devil mixes truth with lies? :)

What an unBiblical conclusion which denies the Greek construction of the New Testament. We are "being saved", which is future perfect tense referring to an ongoing process, not "saved already" which denies the Bible. I'd believe you if Jesus said, "Abiding in the Vine is not necessary, just as long as you at some point in the past were connected to that Vine."

Salvation only comes once Phone. Sanctification is the ongoing process. Running the race has to do with winning or losing crowns in heaven.

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 - Crown 1 - Crown of Righteousness— Loved the Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8 NIV
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27 NIV
3 - Crown 3 - Crown of Life— Endured Patiently through Trials - James 1:12 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV
4 - Crown 4 - Crown of Glory— Godly Leaders Who were Examples to Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV
5 - Crown 5 - Crown of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, Dan 12:3 NIV

 

[Phoneman777]

A cosmic rapist? Where are you coming up with this stuff? If someone walks away, of course they probably aren't part of thr chosen. They were called but not chosen. John said that those that go out from among weren't of us to begin with.

Then again, if they are chosen and predestinated, yes then God can bring them back into the fold.

Well, how else would you describe a rapist? Is he not one who forces himself upon others against their will? That is exactly how OSAS characterizes God: One Who will force Himself upon those who no longer wish to have anything to do with Him or His authority over their lives. My God is a Gentlemen and would never force anyone to remain in a relationship with Him against their will.


The "many" of Matthew 24:12 KJV were heaven bound saints in a surrendered relationship with Jesus (unless you suffer under the delusion that selfish, self-centered, self absorbed, self righteous, self indulgent, lost people are capable of possessing the self-less, self-denying, self-sacrificing agape love of God, that is) but are said to had allowed their agape to grow cold and dead due to iniquity, so how can OSAS possibly be true these "agape-less many" are now ex-saints no longer bound for heaven?

Of course God can bring us back into the fold, but that is not the issue. The issue is the claim of OSAS that we are never considered separated from the fold to begin with, whether we wind up caught in a thicket or in the jaws of a wolf.

 

[Phoneman777]

Phone doesn't understand God's Grace so...rape is a sin and God is sinless. You see how the devil mixes truth with lies? :)


Salvation only comes once Phone. Sanctification is the ongoing process. Running the race has to do with winning or losing crowns in heaven.

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 - Crown 1 - Crown of Righteousness— Loved the Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8 NIV
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27 NIV
3 - Crown 3 - Crown of Life— Endured Patiently through Trials - James 1:12 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV
4 - Crown 4 - Crown of Glory— Godly Leaders Who were Examples to Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV
5 - Crown 5 - Crown of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, Dan 12:3 NIV

ATP, it is YOU who mix lies with truth. YOU are the one who claims God will force us into a relationship with Him against our will, which is no where found in Scripture. What IS found in Scripture is the command that we are to "abide in the Vine", which you and the rest of your OSAS believers can't seem to grasp is a DIRECTIVE from God to us - that we make the CHOICE to abide continually with Him in the Vine. YOU seem to think that once we are connected to the Vine, the directive no longer applies leaving us free to disconnect ourselves from the Vine and go and be grafted in the serpent's Tree of the Knowledge of Evil.

 

[Phoneman777]

Phone doesn't understand God's Grace so...rape is a sin and God is sinless. You see how the devil mixes truth with lies? :)


Salvation only comes once Phone. Sanctification is the ongoing process. Running the race has to do with winning or losing crowns in heaven.

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 - Crown 1 - Crown of Righteousness— Loved the Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8 NIV
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27 NIV
3 - Crown 3 - Crown of Life— Endured Patiently through Trials - James 1:12 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV
4 - Crown 4 - Crown of Glory— Godly Leaders Who were Examples to Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV
5 - Crown 5 - Crown of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, Dan 12:3 NIV

Sorry, but I can't accept your false premise that salvation is something other than what the Bible says it is: an ongoing experience that can be ended by our choice at any time we wish. "Being saved" not "saved', ATP. That's what the Greek actually says: "Being saved".

 

[FHII]

Well, how else would you describe a rapist? Is he not one who forces himself upon others against their will? That is exactly how OSAS characterizes God: One Who will force Himself upon those who no longer wish to have anything to do with Him or His authority over their lives.

First off, I wouldn't even use the term "rapist" in this situation. It simply doesn't fit and in my opinion is rediculous.

Second, no... that's not how OSAS characterizes God--with or without the rapist analogy. While I'm not in total line with OSAS, I don't believe that, and I don't know anyone one this board who believes OSAS that does. Certainly Calvin doesn't either and the Bible doesn't either. This characture of God and OSAS is a boogyman of your own creation.

The many in Matt 24... they behaved like they were heaven bound but weren't. God foreknew they weren't and I daresay it was in his will all along.

 

[ATP]

ATP, it is YOU who mix lies with truth. YOU are the one who claims God will force us into a relationship with Him against our will, which is no where found in Scripture. What IS found in Scripture is the command that we are to "abide in the Vine", which you and the rest of your OSAS believers can't seem to grasp is a DIRECTIVE from God to us - that we make the CHOICE to abide continually with Him in the Vine. YOU seem to think that once we are connected to the Vine, the directive no longer applies leaving us free to disconnect ourselves from the Vine and go and be grafted in the serpent's Tree of the Knowledge of Evil.

They no longer abide in the vine because they did not have the root of salvation to begin with. It's all about the root.

Sorry, but I can't accept your false premise that salvation is something other than what the Bible says it is: an ongoing experience that can be ended by our choice at any time we wish. "Being saved" not "saved', ATP. That's what the Greek actually says: "Being saved".

Again, sanctification is the ongoing process. Do you know what sanctification is?

 

[FHII]

ATP,

Phonenan777 has said that you believe that God forces himself on those who walk away from him. Is that what you believe?

 

[ATP]

ATP,

Phonenan777 has said that you believe that God forces himself on those who walk away from him. Is that what you believe?

You guys are using the word "force" as if Jesus isn't sinless. Otherwise, Jesus has been raping the Jews for 2,000 years forcing them back into their land, even though they are still in unbelief. Jesus doesn't "force" sinners. Rather, He "loves" them.

Rom 2:4 NIV Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

 

[FHII]

I'm on your side on this, ATP.... just asking for clarity. Like I said, phoneman invented a boogyman so he would have something to fight.

 

[ATP]

I'm on your side on this, ATP.... just asking for clarity. Like I said, phoneman invented a boogyman so he would have something to fight.

God is merciful and forgiving and filled with jealous love. :wub:

John 6:35-40 NIV Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 17:12 NIV While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.