ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[Phoneman777]

First off, I wouldn't even use the term "rapist" in this situation. It simply doesn't fit and in my opinion is rediculous.

Second, no... that's not how OSAS characterizes God--with or without the rapist analogy. While I'm not in total line with OSAS, I don't believe that, and I don't know anyone one this board who believes OSAS that does. Certainly Calvin doesn't either and the Bible doesn't either. This characture of God and OSAS is a boogyman of your own creation.

The many in Matt 24... they behaved like they were heaven bound but weren't. God foreknew they weren't and I daresay it was in his will all along.

Fair enough, don't use it - I WILL because that's exactly how OSAS characterizes my God. Jaycee Lee Dugard would fully agree with me. She was kidnapped and sexually assaulted by some love struck crazed lunatic for 18 years against her will. What a pathetic counterfeit for the true relationship with Jesus which is based on voluntary commitment on the part of Jesus and us, where our freewill allows us to at any time turn and walk away should we ever choose to do so.

You seem to be stuck on this idea that the "many" weren't saved because you believe that the selfish, self centered, self serving, self seeking LOST are capable of receiving from God and imparting to others the wonderful self less, self sacrificing, self abasing agape love of God. I disagree. The fact that the "many" were in possession of agape proves that they were heaven bound saints in a saving relationship with Jesus but iniquity turned their agape cold and dead, and since the heaven bound saints are possessors of agape for God, for others, and agape perfected in them, these "many" are no longer counted among the number of heaven bound saints.

 

[Phoneman777]

I'm on your side on this, ATP.... just asking for clarity. Like I said, phoneman invented a boogyman so he would have something to fight.

Invented? No, sir, I've EXPOSED OSAS for what it is: a crutch for pathetic "Christians" who want to withhold a portion of their heart from Jesus so that Satan may take up residence there whenever the need to indulge a little of what made necessary the death of our Lord arises. The Bible warns against "smooth sayings" and what could be more smoother a saying than to tell the church that you can sin as much as you want b/c God will force you to go to heaven anyway?

 

[ATP]

You seem to be stuck on this idea that the "many" weren't saved because you believe that the selfish, self centered, self serving, self seeking LOST are capable of receiving from God and imparting to others the wonderful self less, self sacrificing, self abasing agape love of God. I disagree. The fact that the "many" were in possession of agape proves that they were heaven bound saints in a saving relationship with Jesus but iniquity turned their agape cold and dead, and since the heaven bound saints are possessors of agape for God, for others, and agape perfected in them, these "many" are no longer counted among the number of heaven bound saints.

Waxing cold is quenching the spirit. Having your spirit quenched is part of end time persecution. That is all.

Invented? No, sir, I've EXPOSED OSAS for what it is: a crutch for pathetic "Christians" who want to withhold a portion of their heart from Jesus so that Satan may take up residence there whenever the need to indulge a little of what made necessary the death of our Lord arises. The Bible warns against "smooth sayings" and what could be more smoother a saying than to tell the church that you can sin as much as you want b/c God will force you to go to heaven anyway?

You've exposed nothing, except of how delusional you've really become.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

We who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in no way profess a dead faith, nor are we antinomians...yet when it comes to soteriology we do believe we are saved through the belief of the death of Jesus Christ for our sins and His resurrection. This is the entirety of the gospel for salvation.

What we believe about works is it is the natural progression and out working of being born again. These works do nothing to secure or maintain our salvation. These works are accredited to God as working in and through us.

We do not believe that sin will disqualify any born again believer for the free gift of salvation. All sin is deliberate, yet repentance is the natural working of God in us through the conviction He places on us. We believe as His children we are chastised but not condemned.

Mark 16:16 NIV Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Rom 8:1-2 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:34 ESV Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Col 2:13-15 NIV When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Jude 1:4-5 NIV For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[FHII]

Amen ATP... Nothing more to add!

 

[Phoneman777]

Waxing cold is quenching the spirit. Having your spirit quenched is part of end time persecution. That is all.


You've exposed nothing, except of how delusional you've really become.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

We who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in no way profess a dead faith, nor are we antinomians...yet when it comes to soteriology we do believe we are saved through the belief of the death of Jesus Christ for our sins and His resurrection. This is the entirety of the gospel for salvation.

What we believe about works is it is the natural progression and out working of being born again. These works do nothing to secure or maintain our salvation. These works are accredited to God as working in and through us.

We do not believe that sin will disqualify any born again believer for the free gift of salvation. All sin is deliberate, yet repentance is the natural working of God in us through the conviction He places on us. We believe as His children we are chastised but not condemned.

Mark 16:16 NIV Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Rom 8:1-2 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:34 ESV Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Col 2:13-15 NIV When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Jude 1:4-5 NIV For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

What false prophet has led you to believe that "cold, dead agape" is "living agape"??? Nonsense. It's like believing a cold body that has assumed room temperature is still alive.

And "quenching the Spirit" has the same effect as "quenching your thirst" and so it is that in the case of the latter you don't feel thirsty anymore and in the former you don't feel the Holy Spirit's presence anymore. Got it? Stop this ridiculous attempt to make cold, dead agape the same as the "perfected agape" which only the saints possess, and stop insisting that those who have driven away the Holy Spirit are still counted among the saints who walk by faith with the Holy Spirit.

The Unmerciful Servant, thinking himself OSAS after he received forgiveness for his impossible debt went out to freely sin against his neighbor and found out quick what happens to the forgiven saints who fail to "abide in the Vine", didn't he?

 

[ATP]

What false prophet has led you to believe that "cold, dead agape" is "living agape"??? Nonsense. It's like believing a cold body that has assumed room temperature is still alive.

And "quenching the Spirit" has the same effect as "quenching your thirst" and so it is that in the case of the latter you don't feel thirsty anymore and in the former you don't feel the Holy Spirit's presence anymore. Got it? Stop this ridiculous attempt to make cold, dead agape the same as the "perfected agape" which only the saints possess, and stop insisting that those who have driven away the Holy Spirit are still counted among the saints who walk by faith with the Holy Spirit.

The Unmerciful Servant, thinking himself OSAS after he received forgiveness for his impossible debt went out to freely sin against his neighbor and found out quick what happens to the forgiven saints who fail to "abide in the Vine", didn't he?

I believe what the Word of God tells me. If the Word says neither death nor life can separate me from Christ, then I believe God Rom 8:38. ;)

 

[ATP]

Where in the NT does it say the Spirit of the Lord does this after resurrection?

1 Sam 16:14 NIV Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him.

 

[Phoneman777]

I believe what the Word of God tells me. If the Word says neither death nor life can separate me from Christ, then I believe God Rom 8:38. ;)

Once again, the issue is not God's unconditional love which compelled Him to give His only begotten Son, but His wholly conditional salvation, which can only be obtained by us through a faithful continuous surrendered relationship with Jesus, and your idea that we can be simultaneously surrendered to God while indulging in sin is not only unBiblical, but is not based in reality, either in this universe or any other alternative universe. If OSAS is true, then why pray tell did Jesus direct us to "abide in the Vine" if such abiding is no more voluntary than breathing or the beating of the heart?

You will never come to spiritual enlightenment until you give up this nonsensical idea that the "agape-less many" of Matthew 24:12 KJV, who were previously heaven bound saints, are yet still heaven bound though they lack the Biblical criteria of what one must possess to be saint: (1) Agape for God, (2) Agape for others, and (3) Agape perfected in that saint, which the cold, dead agape of the "many" is anything but what can be characterized as the Agape which the heaven bound saints possess. A person who truly loves Jesus and desires to cease from sin will readily accept from the Holy Spirit His generous offer of victory over the temptation to indulge sinful habits that made necessary the death of our dear Savior on Calvary - those who continue to indulge them and seek out the false sense of security that false doctrines like OSAS provide evidence the fact that their love for Jesus is overshadowed by their love of sin, and Judgment Day will strip away their pretended piety and lay their true desires bare for all to see.

 

[Phoneman777]

Where in the NT does it say the Spirit of the Lord does this after resurrection?

1 Sam 16:14 NIV Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him.

Matthew 24:12 KJV: the "many" who were once saints but they allowed iniquity to turn their agape cold and dead. Of course, you will argue that the Holy Spirit yet dwells in these "agape-less" apostates, but that is to be expected. Zealots and hacks are wholly incapable of accepting the failure of their doctrines to stand the test of Biblical scrutiny, let alone common sense, bro.

Who is the "way of righteousness"? Jesus, the "way, the truth, and the light". Yet, when Peter speaks of those who knew "the way of righteousness" - Jesus - but turned back to the world and are subject to a fate worse than before they knew Jesus, you insist they were never converted, although to know Jesus is to keep His commandments, which the lost cannot do even if they wanted to do it according to Romans 8:7 KJV.

Check out my tag line below in red.
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[mjrhealth]

to know Jesus is to keep His commandments,

And so Pm its back to the old stumblingblock is it not. The flesh. What commandment where we given, "LOVE". Why love, because it is unselfish. PM it has always being about love since the very beginning of time. God is Love He cannot do anything outside love. God created a perfect man in an inperfect flesh. Why do you think God put our spirit in a mud vessel, so he could save what was inside. You see PM, keeping those laws that you speak of does nothing for you salvartion, a free gift from God which people seem to think they can somehow pay for. You tell me we cant earn our way to heaven than you proceed to do exactly that. You know why God made it so simple for us?? so that we could not take the credit. But guess whi is trying to do just that.

God made the world because He loves us.
God put our spirit in an earthen vessel because he loves us.
God gave the Jews the law so that they could see how foolish it was to try an obtain salvation by works why because He loves them
God sent His word to this earth in a earthly body to suffer and die for us, Why, because he loves us,
His Word, Jesus went to that cross, where He was despised by men and put to shame, and bore the sins of all men, why because he loves us,
We gentiles came to Christ and God by grace so that God could make the Jews Jealous when they see that we get the "free" way, the "better " way to salvation )its in the bible if you read it).
God gave us grace by faith so the "no man" could boast, why because He loves us.

If we love Him than we will believe Him have Faith in Him and Trust Him. It is faith that pleases God not our works whoich are as filthy rags.

Its by our love of all mankind that we show the world who and what God is.

Without Love we have nothing.

In All His Love

You are saved by His love for you, You cannot in no way make Him love you anymore than he already does. Its Impossible.

 

[Phoneman777]

And so Pm its back to the old stumblingblock is it not. The flesh. What commandment where we given, "LOVE". Why love, because it is unselfish. PM it has always being about love since the very beginning of time. God is Love He cannot do anything outside love. God created a perfect man in an inperfect flesh. Why do you think God put our spirit in a mud vessel, so he could save what was inside. You see PM, keeping those laws that you speak of does nothing for you salvartion, a free gift from God which people seem to think they can somehow pay for. You tell me we cant earn our way to heaven than you proceed to do exactly that. You know why God made it so simple for us?? so that we could not take the credit. But guess whi is trying to do just that.

God made the world because He loves us.
God put our spirit in an earthen vessel because he loves us.
God gave the Jews the law so that they could see how foolish it was to try an obtain salvation by works why because He loves them
God sent His word to this earth in a earthly body to suffer and die for us, Why, because he loves us,
His Word, Jesus went to that cross, where He was despised by men and put to shame, and bore the sins of all men, why because he loves us,
We gentiles came to Christ and God by grace so that God could make the Jews Jealous when they see that we get the "free" way, the "better " way to salvation )its in the bible if you read it).
God gave us grace by faith so the "no man" could boast, why because He loves us.

If we love Him than we will believe Him have Faith in Him and Trust Him. It is faith that pleases God not our works whoich are as filthy rags.

Its by our love of all mankind that we show the world who and what God is.

Without Love we have nothing.

In All His Love

You are saved by His love for you, You cannot in no way make Him love you anymore than he already does. Its Impossible.

"If you love Me, keep My commandments." OSAS people who claim that they may freely sin without any impact on the status of their salvation obviously do not love Jesus.

 

[ATP]

Once again, the issue is not God's unconditional love which compelled Him to give His only begotten Son, but His wholly conditional salvation,

But it is unconditional love that keeps us in Him. What is the definition of death? Salvation IS love. Jesus died on the cross and saved us out of LOVE. Do you know God's love Phoneman?

Rom 8:38-39 ESV / Rev 20:14 NIV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[ATP]

"If you love Me, keep My commandments." OSAS people who claim that they may freely sin without any impact on the status of their salvation obviously do not love Jesus.

We do not claim or believe in habitual sin, rather we give credit to God and not our works unto repentance. Saying we believe to keep on sinning is a lie from the Antichrist spirit. It seems to me that you're giving credit to yourself for the conviction that takes place in you. Conviction does not come from you, it comes from God. Your ego is making you believe otherwise. Either that or you do not know the Grace of God.

We have told you over and over again, but you refuse to listen. So now what? You wanna keep doing this dance? 1 John 3:6 NIV No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

We who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in no way profess a dead faith, nor are we antinomians...yet when it comes to soteriology we do believe we are saved through the belief of the death of Jesus Christ for our sins and His resurrection. This is the entirety of the gospel for salvation.

What we believe about works is it is the natural progression and out working of being born again. These works do nothing to secure or maintain our salvation. These works are accredited to God as working in and through us.

We do not believe that sin will disqualify any born again believer for the free gift of salvation. All sin is deliberate, yet repentance is the natural working of God in us through the conviction He places on us. We believe as His children we are chastised but not condemned.

 

[mjrhealth]

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The problem is Pm, you have taken this part,

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

and added the Law, the ten comandments. which makes it no longer a gift. A gift is only a gift when it is free.

It is His comandements , you know LOVE that we keep.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

and just to clarify it all

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Has absolutely nothing with keeping the law, its all about Love

If you have not love you have nothing.

In al lHis most bountiful love.

PS as a friend of mine said, you cant make Him love you any less.

 

[ATP]

The problem is Pm, you have taken this part,

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

and added the Law, the ten comandments. which makes it no longer a gift. A gift is only a gift when it is free.

A gift is only a gift when it is free.

Is there any circumstance when a gift isn't free? :)

 

[ATP]

If we can lose our salvation, then why did John see his name written on the wall in the New Jerusalem? Rev 21:14 NIV.

 

[face2face]

If we can lose our salvation, then why did John see his name written on the wall in the New Jerusalem? Rev 21:14 NIV.

I recommend reading the first epistle of John?
What is the outcome of those who "practice" righteousness compared to those who "practice" sin?
Practice in the sense of perfecting a thing.

John did not practice sin...yes he sinned, as we all do, but he did not allow sin to have dominion over him and as such did not receive its wages, death.
Its not wise I feel to comment on a life which still within its probation period...anything can happen and does.
F2F

 

[ATP]

I recommend reading the first epistle of John?
What is the outcome of those who "practice" righteousness compared to those who "practice" sin?
Practice in the sense of perfecting a thing.

John did not practice sin...yes he sinned, as we all do, but he did not allow sin to have dominion over him and as such did not receive its wages, death.
Its not wise I feel to comment on a life which still within its probation period...anything can happen and does.
F2F

Nonbelievers practice sin face, not believers.

Why? Because God's seed remains in them and will never leave them. His seed is imperishable.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[tom55]

If we can lose our salvation, then why did John see his name written on the wall in the New Jerusalem? Rev 21:14 NIV

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

So now I am in a dilemma. Do I believe the bible or ATP? Can I be cut off (loose my salvation) if I stop believing?

 

[StanJ]

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
So now I am in a dilemma. Do I believe the bible or ATP? Can I be cut off (loose my salvation) if I stop believing?

It is apparent YOU know the scriptures, and what they say, so why worry about what ATP says? I can tell you that he has been on my ignore list from almost the beginning, as my opinion is you shouldn't waste your time on the unteachable or the inculcated.