[SIZE=medium]Wormwood,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]You had previously acknowledged that God intervenes in our lives and sometimes outright suspends free will. I questioned whether it was really free will if God does this. I am not satisfied with your answer which was that you saw no problem with it and pointed to the case of Pharaoh. I want to go over the case of Pharaoh more closely, but I want to further question you on free will first. Perhaps I am looking at this in terms of “absolutism” (if that is a word), it seems to me that the very instant God intervenes – much less suspends free will – it is no longer truly free will. Even if there were only one single instant of God so much as coaxing one person in the Bible, the concept of free will is dead. It does not mean choices aren’t there sometimes (most of the time, even), and it does not mean people don’t have decisions to make. But it is not free will. Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Mary all gave excuses on why they shouldn’t be given the job. God really didn’t pay attention to them. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Three of my favorite names to bring up on this are Balaam, Jonah and Paul. I asked if they had free will and another poster said that Balaam could’ve given false prophecy [it wasn’t what was going on, but that’s what the poster said], Jonah could’ve kept running (I wanted to know where he could run to in a whale) and Paul could’ve been a blind beggar. Wormwood, do you see these as reasonable choices given by a God who also gives “free will”? Don Corleone said in the movie the Godfather that he was going to make him an offer he can’t refuse…. But God originated the concept![/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I stand by my statement. If God intervenes or suspends free will, it’s not free will. And while I have no evidence, I believe God intervenes several times each day in our lives to either protect us or rebuke us (which is still protecting us).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Another poster and I discussed “sheep”. He believed sheep have free will. Up to a point, I agree. I agree that they can eat where ever they want in the pasture that the Shepherd chooses. They can sleep under a tree or by a brook. They can baa with Bob the sheep or George the sheep. They can even run away. BUT the shepherd’s going to bring him back. Jesus the shepherd doesn’t lose his sheep! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Now let’s look at the case of Pharaoh. The relevant text is Exodus, chapters [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]4 through 14. You had stated that Pharaoh had free will and he hardened his heart and God reacted to that. In short, you stated that Pharaoh initiated his own rebellion. Let’s look at the timeline:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Exo 4:21 The Lord said he will harden Pharaoh’s heart.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Exo 5 Pharaoh increases the work demand on the Hebrews by taking away their straw to make bricks.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Exo 6 God meets with Moses, and encourages him[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Exo 7:3 God said he will harden Pharaoh’s heart.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Exo 7:10 Aaron cast down his rod; Magicians cast down their rods…. Snakes and all.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Exo 7:13 God hardens Pharaoh’s heart.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Exo 7:20 River turned to blood [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Exo 8:6 Aaron brings a plague of frogs[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Exo 8:7 The magicians also bring a plague of frogs (I only mention this because I find it humorous…)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Exo 8:8 Pharaoh asks Moses to get rid of the frogs and he’ll let the Hebrews go.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Exo 8:15 Pharaoh hardened his own heart. FINALLY Pharaoh hardened his own heart.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I’m going to end the timeline at that and say 2 more times after that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, but 6 times after that God said He hardened Pharaoh’s heart. The score in the “hardening of Pharaoh’s Heart” is God: 8, Pharaoh 3. And God was the first and second to harden his heart and also the last. Yet you say Pharaoh had free will and initiated his own rebellion. Sure, three times in the middle he did. But God initiated it. I am failing to see your reasoning when the ratio is 8:3 in favor of God hardening his heart, and He was the first to do it (not Pharaoh himself).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium](Ref: Exodus 8:32, 9:12, 9:34, 10:1, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4, 14:8, 14:17)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So that brings us to Romans 9:17:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]It says God raised Pharaoh, not that he simply used Pharaoh’s disposition. Pharaoh’s purpose for existing was so God would show his power. This is beyond mere foreknowledge. This is raising him up for that purpose! In short, nothing in this account leads me to believe that Pharaoh initiated his own rebellion. It indicates me that God hardened his heart to begin with and if anything, Pharaoh further acted on what God initiated. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Moving on, you wanted me to list the verses on “predestination”. Wormwood, I’ve been reading your posts for a few years! I know what your thoughts on this are, or at least, what your thoughts have been. But sure, I’m game. As for my thoughts on the verses, I’ve given them already in this thread but I will, of course, rehash them. Here are the verses:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]My take: Romans 8:29 for me is the keynote scripture. I remember you saying that God does not predestinate anyone to believe. That is technically true. This verse says he did predestinate some to be conformed to the image of his son. It does not say to believe, nor does it say they are predestinated to go to heaven or be saved. BUT when you are conformed to the image of his son (and it is speaking spiritually… The whole chapter deals with the spiritual man) that will be the inevitable outcome. We are going to get to Ephesians next, but they are going to come back to the same thing 8:29 is saying. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]It also says the Jesus will be the firstborn of many brethren. “Many brethren” speaks of individuals, not a group of people (for example, the Gentiles). “Many brethren” means many individuals. The Body of Christ is one body of many members. The Church and The Bride of Christ are many members acting in one accord. This verse does not say it’s a group of members. In context, it says many individuals.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Personally, I was delighted when I came to this knowledge. God indeed does not predestinate us to the finished product (Heaven, salvation, etc..) He predestinates us to a process: to be conformed! It excites me because I have a concrete answer to the scatterbrains who say things like, “Well, if we are predestined, that means we can do what ever we want and still go to heaven!” No, it doesn’t! The verse says we are predestinated to undergo a process, which will eventually lead us to heaven.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Another note on 8:29 is that people look at it as a step by step process; which it is not. It does not say, “for whom he did foreknow, he then did predestinate…” It says, “… he also did…” Verse 30 says they were also called, justified and glorified. I am not against it being a step by step process (as opposed to an “all at the same time” process). But it never says that it is. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]One more thing before I move on…. This isn’t talking about a group of people, like… Let’s say… The gentiles. Paul details the predestination of the gentiles in his writings, but not in this chapter. Very indirectly and remotely, he does in verse 15. But Paul’s not a gentile. Yet he is speaking to (presumed) gentiles, and he uses the term “us”. That means “Paul and his audience”. He is talking to and about “Christians”: whether they be Jews or Gentiles. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The Epistles to the Romans and Ephesians were written to and delivered to PEOPLE. We know some of their names. Yes, Epistles were circular in nature (meaning they were meant to be read in one Church, then delivered to another and read, and then to another….). But they impacted individuals, and were meant to. So I don’t subscribe to the viewpoint that at any time, God predestined the Gentiles and NOT individuals. He did predestine the Gentile graphing. But he also predestinated individuals. Names not given… Ever! It’s for God to know. This is another reason why I reject the notion that “we can do whatever we want!” We are told some are predestined… We are given a formula and a game plan. If we do it, then we know we are predestined. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Heck Wormwood…. Calvin didn’t even believe that we can do anything we want. But most people who speak out against Calvinism or OSAS have never read his works. Case in point: Calvin as far as my research leads me is the one who coined the phrase “Grace isn’t a license to sin!” The people that call OSAS “Calvinism” irk me as much as those who believe Satan is Lucifer! (sorry for the rant).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Next verse:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Verse 5 is the one that says predestinated but verse 4 gives us the essence of what it means. We are predestinated to be his children (coincides with Romans 8:16, 17 and 29). It never says according to our will, but according to the good pleasure of HIS will. Our [free] will has nothing to do with it. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]We were chosen before Genesis 1:1 to be holy and without blame before HIM in love. Who is the only human who was holy and without blame? Jesus. So being conformed to the image of [Jesus] makes us holy and without blame. Not of works, mind you.. But by grace through faith in Jesus. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]I will repeat… Again Paul says “us”. Paul was not a gentile and the Church at Ephesus was pretty small at this writing. In chapter 2 he does explain the relationship of the gentiles, but he is not talking to Gentiles, per se. He is talking to Christians.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]I will admit this verse does confuse me. The next verse says, “that we should be the praise of his glory who first trusted in Christ”. The next verse after that says, “In whom ye also trusted, after ye heard the word of truth…”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]What is clear to me is that verse 12 isn’t talking about the Jews: they rejected Christ! Not all of them, but God accounted them as a people rejecting him. Thus, verse 13 isn’t talking about the gentiles. Not all of them accepted Jesus. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The best I can come up with is that Paul was speaking of the Apostles and their initial followers (like Luke and Barnabas and even James the half brother of Jesus) in verse 12. They were the first group to trust in Christ. Verse 13 is speaking of the churches they set up. In Paul’s calling, many (not all) were Gentiles. Verse 13 is speaking of Christians, not Gentiles. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Jesus said he knew his sheep by name. He said that even the very hairs on your head are numbered. So I have a hard time believing that God was predestinating a type or a group of people rather than individual people. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]These are not the only verses that point to predestination. I estimate I can bring up about 50 more verses that are relevant to the topic and support predestination. Can you produce the same for free will?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]“Freewill” does occur in the Bible…. Usually about giving a freewill offering. About 11 times. Not that all offerings are free will. Some aren’t. Some offerings were required. But when folks claim to have scripture that supports free will, it’s almost always verses that contain the starter, “Whosoever will…” This isn’t an invitation as much as it is identification. It’s there to tell us who the predestinated are. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Wormwood, I am using Microsoft word, and am on page four. I have not addressed all that you have said, but I feel that I’ve said enough. Long posts are boring and tend to lose strength. If there is something I didn’t address that you want me to, bring it up again. [/SIZE]