Another Merry god Incarnated Baby Born Celebration?

[GodsGrace]

Well let's see what you said again to refresh your memory..

"First of all - Jesus wasn't "blaspheming" by saying He was the Messiah/Christ. The Jews accused Him of blasphemy for claiming to be the SON of God - which is tantamount to claiming to be GOD Himself."

Ok if you did not infer or intent to say that the Jews meant he was claiming to be God himself in YOUR quote above then you MUST have meant it yourself by stating it. Stop weaseling out of what you said BOL. I'm not playing word games with you. Make your words clearer then in the future. And of course for the second time I completely disagree with what you read into scripture here as you do not take out of it.

APAK

I'm here and will be gone within a minute.

You can believe whatever you want to believe ---
However, to call yourself a CHRISTIAN, you MUST believe that Jesus is God.
Otherwise, you'll have to belong to one of those heretical religions that came along withing the first century. And continue to this day....

 

[bbyrd009]

imo do yourself a favor and goto the Horse's Mouth for that, and ignore the papist propaganda. If you ever want to become Elohim anyway.

 

[APAK]

I'm here and will be gone within a minute.

You can believe whatever you want to believe ---
However, to call yourself a CHRISTIAN, you MUST believe that Jesus is God.
Otherwise, you'll have to belong to one of those heretical religions that came along withing the first century. And continue to this day....

I'm glad I'm making some headway. Your response says it all. Thanks for the boost in confidence

Bless you,

APAK

 

[BreadOfLife]

@BreadOfLife ,,,,last part

I’ve already shown the all-important context surrounding Titus 2:13 and now I will add other scripture to support that this verse is not saying Jesus Christ is God Almighty despite the annoying and unreliable GS Rule clouding many minds that believe it is a magic formula and a short-cut to gaining wisdom and knowledge of God and his Son.

I’ll let the scripture do the talking here that completely compliments and supports the true meaning of verse Titus 2:13. This is no Father or God Almighty returning. Only the glory of God Almighty, who is our Lord and Savior, and our Blessed hope indeed.

(Mat 16:27) For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
(Joh 14:1) “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.
(Joh 14:2) In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
(Joh 14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
(1Co 1:7) so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(Php 3:20) But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
(Heb 9:28) so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
(1Th 4:16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
(2Ti 4:8) Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
(1Pe 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(1Jn 3:2) Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

Now show me BOL where is your scripture supporting your interpretation of Titus 2:13 where you say God is the same as Jesus Christ and that our Blessed Hope means you expect to see God Almighty in glory and not Jesus Christ in glory of the Father and his God, based on your ‘proof:’ applying a generic grammatic device by another Trinitarian that also does not understand how to study scripture without using unsound short-cuts and cherry-picking scripture to suit their non-scriptural thoughts?
I’ll get back with you on the John 20 verse…

Bless you,
APAK

Thank you for that incredible series of Scriptural acrobatics. It was fairly impressive to watch as you created hoops to leap through.

You took ONE simple verse of Scripture and poured WAAAAAAAYY much more spin into it than Paul - who actually wrote it. The verse is simple:
Titus 2:22
. . . waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Here it is in its FULL CONTEXT:
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.


This ENTIRE passage is talking about Jesus - and ONLY Jesus.
Here is the breakdown:

11 - For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Jesus IS the grace of God that appeared, bringing salvation through His sacrifice on the cross.

12 - training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
WHO trained Paul and "us" - it was JESUS (Matt. 9:35, Mark 12:35, Luke 19:47, John 7:14, Gal 1:12).

13 - waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
The subject NEVER changes in ANY of these verses - as they are ALL part of ONE long sentence. Jesus has been the subject ALL along . . .

14 - who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
WHO gave Himself to redeem us? JESUS did.

As I said before - as impressive as your Scriptural acrobatics are - they simply DON'T hold water. The truth of Scripture is this:
Jesus Christ is FULLY man and FULLY God.

 

[APAK]

Thank you for that incredible series of Scriptural acrobatics. It was fairly impressive to watch as you created hoops to leap through.

You took ONE simple verse of Scripture and poured WAAAAAAAYY much more spin into it than Paul - who actually wrote it. The verse is simple:
Titus 2:22
. . . waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Here it is in its FULL CONTEXT:
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.


This ENTIRE passage is talking about Jesus - and ONLY Jesus.
Here is the breakdown:

11 - For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Jesus IS the grace of God that appeared, bringing salvation through His sacrifice on the cross.

12 - training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
WHO trained Paul and "us" - it was JESUS (Matt. 9:35, Mark 12:35, Luke 19:47, John 7:14, Gal 1:12).

13 - waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
The subject NEVER changes in ANY of these verses - as they are ALL part of ONE long sentence. Jesus has been the subject ALL along . . .

14 - who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
WHO gave Himself to redeem us? JESUS did.

As I said before - as impressive as your Scriptural acrobatics are - they simply DON'T hold water. The truth of Scripture is this:
Jesus Christ is FULLY man and FULLY God.

Yes BOL Jesus is the center of what you have stated in Titus. Totally agree with one comment or caveat. In verse 11: The Father provides grace in the form of the gospel though his Jesus his Son. You simply ignore this concept altogether and go straight to saying Jesus is the grace which does not make any sense. The Grace of God always entails a product and a means of delivery. The product is the gospel, that saves, and the means is via his Son. Grace cannot mean a person or personality alone. The fruition and full realization of God's grace is at the Blessed hope of the reappearance of Jesus Christ who comes in the glory of his Father. Jesus still has his Father's spirit within him at that time as he had since his birth. Jesus is not God Almighty or the Father as Jesus is not the source of divinity.

So I see your new come away or BL is now that Jesus has now two natures, adding to your original thought when you said Jesus is God Almighty for this verse of Titus 2:13. Maybe you meant both ideas in the first place?

You know Christ can have just one human nature with his Father indwelt within him as many verses suggest, even explicitly. There are no verses that I know of where it says Christ had/has two natures and/or being 100% human and 100% God Almighty = 200% of 2 natures? You can dissect it that way as others have done for the mind to comprehend, but then are you being truthful and not damaging the spirit of the scripture or altering its true intent? I guess if you read this notion into scripture then I guess it is there. Not for me though. I like to take out of scripture what is plainly says very seriously without bias from my mind as humanly possible.

The scriptures and their understanding is still a learning and refining process indeed for me at least. I have not cornered the market on understanding all of what God has to say to us.

There are a few axioms that form some of my pillows of though and belief.

The OT and NT scriptures must harmonize in every way,
God Almighty is the always living eternally, the only one, and has no equal,
God Almighty is the source of divinity and true power in this universe and in heaven,
God's word, his inner divine thoughts, expressions, messages, movements, plans and purposes created all (and that is not Jesus either) along with the power of his divine or Holy spirit that executes his word,
Jesus is God's true and only Son, and God is his Father,
That Jesus because he now has immortality possesses and experiences the 'full' divine word of God (Jesus is the now the word of God, not the word itself) and has the authority of using God's word for the glory of God his Father, who is also our Father.

Anyway, let me get you the John 20:28 verse reply.

Until later,

Bless you,

APAK

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes BOL Jesus is the center of what you have stated in Titus. Totally agree with one comment or caveat. In verse 11: The Father provides grace in the form of the gospel though his Jesus his Son. You simply ignore this concept altogether and go straight to saying Jesus is the grace which does not make any sense. The Grace of God always entails a product and a means of delivery. The product is the gospel, that saves, and the means is via his Son. Grace cannot mean a person or personality alone. The fruition and full realization of God's grace is at the Blessed hope of the reappearance of Jesus Christ who comes in the glory of his Father. Jesus still has his Father's spirit within him at that time as he had since his birth. Jesus is not God Almighty or the Father as Jesus is not the source of divinity.

So I see your new come away or BL is now that Jesus has now two natures, adding to your original thought when you said Jesus is God Almighty for this verse of Titus 2:13. Maybe you meant both ideas in the first place?

You know Christ can have just one human nature with his Father indwelt within him as many verses suggest, even explicitly. There are no verses that I know of where it says Christ had/has two natures and/or being 100% human and 100% God Almighty = 200% of 2 natures? You can dissect it that way as others have done for the mind to comprehend, but then are you being truthful and not damaging the spirit of the scripture or altering its true intent? I guess if you read this notion into scripture then I guess it is there. Not for me though. I like to take out of scripture what is plainly says very seriously without bias from my mind as humanly possible.

The scriptures and their understanding is still a learning and refining process indeed for me at least. I have not cornered the market on understanding all of what God has to say to us.

There are a few axioms that form some of my pillows of though and belief.

The OT and NT scriptures must harmonize in every way,
God Almighty is the always living eternally, the only one, and has no equal,
God Almighty is the source of divinity and true power in this universe and in heaven,
God's word, his inner divine thoughts, expressions, messages, movements, plans and purposes created all (and that is not Jesus either) along with the power of his divine or Holy spirit that executes his word,
Jesus is God's true and only Son, and God is his Father,
That Jesus because he now has immortality possesses and experiences the 'full' divine word of God (Jesus is the now the word of God, not the word itself) and has the authority of using God's word for the glory of God his Father, who is also our Father.

Anyway, let me get you the John 20:28 verse reply.
Until later,
Bless you,
APAK

Until you can understand that Christ is the very personification of God’s grace – you’ll never understand God and you’ll ALWAYS fall victim to the confusion you’re in now.

IF Scripture is correct and with God NOTHING is impossible (Luke 1:37) – then Jesus being FULLY God and FULLY Man shouldn’t be a problem for you.

Your lack of faith is astounding . . .

 

[APAK]

Until you can understand that Christ is the very personification of God’s grace – you’ll never understand God and you’ll ALWAYS fall victim to the confusion you’re in now.

IF Scripture is correct and with God NOTHING is impossible (Luke 1:37) – then Jesus being FULLY God and FULLY Man shouldn’t be a problem for you.

Your lack of faith is astounding . . .

Quick reply as I'm still working on that other verse...

Yes, your faith in what I read is based on what you have added into scripture and the extreme conclusion you seem draw from it If you will you woill do anything to make it all fit for you. As you just said, "IF Scripture is correct and with God NOTHING is impossible (Luke 1:37) – then Jesus being FULLY God and FULLY Man shouldn’t be a problem for you. Tell me is this not really make up new scripture and understanding?

First off BOL, Luke 1:37 does not say exactlymean what you think it means. And then there are variant translations to reveal some of this. I won't list them here. The meaning of this verse has to do with the word of God, his intentions, goals and purposes. They will never come back empty. Basically it is saying anything God's mind purposes or is set on, always is executed as intended, 100% of the time. Like the birth of his Son.

Then you link this concept to abruptly saying that based on Luke 1:37 Jesus is fully God and Fully man. Where did that come from, where is the reasonable linkage? I can not follow you BOL. I wonder if Luke has that in mind? I doubt it very much. Luke what speaking of the birth of Jesus by Mary and also her relative who was pregnant at an age that woman usually cannot conceive anymore. God purposed the birth of his Son and it happened as he thought it; and executed via his spirit.

Admit it BOL, you use scripture to further your Trinitarian model invented by unwise tradition of men. Just admit it and we can continue is some agreement here.

My faith is what scripture reads to me as I pray and come humbly to learn it. I do not trust the works of men, period.

Later,

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Nancy]

Quick reply as I'm still working on that other verse...

Yes, your faith in what I read is based on what you have added into scripture and the extreme conclusion you seem draw from it If you will you woill do anything to make it all fit for you. As you just said, "IF Scripture is correct and with God NOTHING is impossible (Luke 1:37) – then Jesus being FULLY God and FULLY Man shouldn’t be a problem for you. Tell me is this not really make up new scripture and understanding?

First off BOL, Luke 1:37 does not say exactlymean what you think it means. And then there are variant translations to reveal some of this. I won't list them here. The meaning of this verse has to do with the word of God, his intentions, goals and purposes. They will never come back empty. Basically it is saying anything God's mind purposes or is set on, always is executed as intended, 100% of the time. Like the birth of his Son.

Then you link this concept to abruptly saying that based on Luke 1:37 Jesus is fully God and Fully man. Where did that come from, where is the reasonable linkage? I can not follow you BOL. I wonder if Luke has that in mind? I doubt it very much. Luke what speaking of the birth of Jesus by Mary and also her relative who was pregnant at an age that woman usually cannot conceive anymore. God purposed the birth of his Son and it happened as he thought it; and executed via his spirit.

Admit it BOL, you use scripture to further your Trinitarian model invented by unwise tradition of men. Just admit it and we can continue is some agreement here.

My faith is what scripture reads to me as I pray and come humbly to learn it. I do not trust the works of men, period.

Later,

Bless you,

APAK

I like your new avatar @APAK You age well and you also look like you dropped some weight? NOT that you needed to, lol. ♥

 

[APAK]

I like your new avatar @APAK You age well and you also look like you dropped some weight? NOT that you needed to, lol. ♥

How very perceptive you are Nancy, yes I did lose weight. Full Marks...quite astonishing and very observant.

Yes, I still need to lose weight in the pride department.....a life long battle...still not humbly lean in spirit yet.

Bless you Nancy, I have been reading some of your stuff as others. I tend to float in and out more often and not on the chat all the time...
for instance, I'll be out for a couple of week beginning in a few days....

APAK

 

[Nancy]

How very perceptive you are Nancy, yes I did lose weight. Full Marks...quite astonishing and very observant.

Yes, I still need to lose weight in the pride department.....a life long battle...still not humbly lean in spirit yet.

Bless you Nancy, I have been reading some of your stuff as others. I tend to float in and out more often and not on the chat all the time...
for instance, I'll be out for a couple of week beginning in a few days....

APAK

"Yes, I still need to lose weight in the pride department.....a life long battle...still not humbly lean in spirit yet." <--- Ha! yes, it is the cross we must carry every day! I myself have a bit too much "fat" here as well but then, He is faithful to complete us ♥
"Full Marks...quite astonishing and very observant."
Well, that is overkill...lol but, ty!
What ever you will be doing for the next few weeks...I pray God blesses you in your endeavors...make sure you come back now! ♥ BTW-I don't know if you and Aspen were connected but, he has been AWOL for quite some time now and has not answered any PM's from myself or Helen...just wondered if you might have heard from him?
♥

 

[BreadOfLife]

Quick reply as I'm still working on that other verse...

Yes, your faith in what I read is based on what you have added into scripture and the extreme conclusion you seem draw from it If you will you woill do anything to make it all fit for you. As you just said, "IF Scripture is correct and with God NOTHING is impossible (Luke 1:37) – then Jesus being FULLY God and FULLY Man shouldn’t be a problem for you. Tell me is this not really make up new scripture and understanding?

First off BOL, Luke 1:37 does not say exactlymean what you think it means. And then there are variant translations to reveal some of this. I won't list them here. The meaning of this verse has to do with the word of God, his intentions, goals and purposes. They will never come back empty. Basically it is saying anything God's mind purposes or is set on, always is executed as intended, 100% of the time. Like the birth of his Son.

Then you link this concept to abruptly saying that based on Luke 1:37 Jesus is fully God and Fully man. Where did that come from, where is the reasonable linkage? I can not follow you BOL. I wonder if Luke has that in mind? I doubt it very much. Luke what speaking of the birth of Jesus by Mary and also her relative who was pregnant at an age that woman usually cannot conceive anymore. God purposed the birth of his Son and it happened as he thought it; and executed via his spirit.

Admit it BOL, you use scripture to further your Trinitarian model invented by unwise tradition of men. Just admit it and we can continue is some agreement here.

My faith is what scripture reads to me as I pray and come humbly to learn it. I do not trust the works of men, period.

Later,

Bless you,

APAK

There you go again performing your Scriptural acrobatics – bending and twisting God’s Word to fit YOUR small understanding of it. Sometimes His Word is much broader and is NOT pigeon-holed by your puny little context.

Luke 1:37 corresponds perfectly with Matt. 19:26, where Jesus said “With man this is impossible, but WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.”

ALL of the following verses state that NOTHING is impossible for God . . .
(Gen. 18:14, Job 42:2, Jer. 32:17, Matt. 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37, Luke 18:27)

You SAY you don’t trust in the works of men – but you prove yourself wrong EVERY time you regurgitate your heretical objections regarding the Trinity.
You put your faith in YOUR understanding of God's Word instead of learning from the Authority of His Church - Authority that HE gave it (Matt 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-22).

 

[APAK]

"Yes, I still need to lose weight in the pride department.....a life long battle...still not humbly lean in spirit yet." <--- Ha! yes, it is the cross we must carry every day! I myself have a bit too much "fat" here as well but then, He is faithful to complete us ♥
"Full Marks...quite astonishing and very observant."
Well, that is overkill...lol but, ty!
What ever you will be doing for the next few weeks...I pray God blesses you in your endeavors...make sure you come back now! ♥ BTW-I don't know if you and Aspen were connected but, he has been AWOL for quite some time now and has not answered any PM's from myself or Helen...just wondered if you might have heard from him?
♥

I do not no 'where' Aspen is or any other current info..sorry….we'll be entertaining one of by sisters-in-law....we have not seen her physically for over 20 years....conversed over the phone on a regular basis though...

I do like some of Aspen's posts a great deal...…...very insightful

APAK

 

[APAK]

There you go again performing your Scriptural acrobatics – bending and twisting God’s Word to fit YOUR small understanding of it. Sometimes His Word is much broader and is NOT pigeon-holed by your puny little context.

Luke 1:37 corresponds perfectly with Matt. 19:26, where Jesus said “With man this is impossible, but WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.”

ALL of the following verses state that NOTHING is impossible for God . . .
(Gen. 18:14, Job 42:2, Jer. 32:17, Matt. 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37, Luke 18:27)

You SAY you don’t trust in the works of men – but you prove yourself wrong EVERY time you regurgitate your heretical objections regarding the Trinity.
You put your faith in YOUR understanding of God's Word instead of learning from the Authority of His Church - Authority that HE gave it (Matt 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-22).

BOL, have no issue with connecting Luke 18:27, Matt 19:26, and Mark 10:27 together as one thought when Jesus told the disciples that God is the one who saves and as you say by quoting the verses that say "...nothing is impossible with God." All good. And the same way that women conceive a baby when they are too old or Mary has a miraculous baby Jesus from Luke 1:37..that's all good.

To be a broken record again, the issue I have is not with scripture at all. It is that you use scripture to say what you want it to mean. The expression or words of Jesus for God's nature, means more than intended to you. You conclude if you don't mind me saying what I am convinced you are saying, clearly, that because there is nothing impossible for God then God made a God-man or dual natured personalities in one body to conform to the Trinity. That's what I'm getting from you words. I am trying to be forward and honest here.

So this is the issue I have with your deduction. I hope it is clear.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Nancy]

I do not no 'where' Aspen is or any other current info..sorry….we'll be entertaining one of by sisters-in-law....we have not seen her physically for over 20 years....conversed over the phone on a regular basis though...

I do like some of Aspen's posts a great deal...…...very insightful

APAK

Enjoy your time with SIL, see you when you get back.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL, have no issue with connecting Luke 18:27, Matt 19:26, and Mark 10:27 together as one thought when Jesus told the disciples that God is the one who saves and as you say by quoting the verses that say "...nothing is impossible with God." All good. And the same way that women conceive a baby when they are too old or Mary has a miraculous baby Jesus from Luke 1:37..that's all good.

To be a broken record again, the issue I have is not with scripture at all. It is that you use scripture to say what you want it to mean. The expression or words of Jesus for God's nature, means more than intended to you. You conclude if you don't mind me saying what I am convinced you are saying, clearly, that because there is nothing impossible for God then God made a God-man or dual natured personalities in one body to conform to the Trinity. That's what I'm getting from you words. I am trying to be forward and honest here.

So this is the issue I have with your deduction. I hope it is clear.

Bless you,

APAK

The Scriptures in CONTEXT tell us that God is Omnipotent (ALL-Powerful).
They tell us that He is Omniscient (ALL-knowing).
They tell us that He is Omnipresent (EVERYWHERE).
They tell us that NOTHING is impossible for Him, who is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent.

I'm not "trying" to get Scripture to say anything about God that it doesn't already say.
YOU are the one who is trying to limit His Supreme Power.

The Trinity doesn't "limit" God's power - it explains it.

 

[APAK]

The Scriptures in CONTEXT tell us that God is Omnipotent (ALL-Powerful).
They tell us that He is Omniscient (ALL-knowing).
They tell us that He is Omnipresent (EVERYWHERE).
They tell us that NOTHING is impossible for Him, who is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent.

I'm not "trying" to get Scripture to say anything about God that it doesn't already say.
YOU are the one who is trying to limit His Supreme Power.

The Trinity doesn't "limit" God's power - it explains it.

Anyway, I was not ‘limiting anything’ about or of God and his power BOL. I’m still puzzled where I said that or even implied it. Never the less I would like to move on, to John 20:28, as I promised.

Backdrop:

John 20:28 is about Thomas suddenly realizing for the first time that God his Father did indeed raise Jesus from the dead, as Jesus said he would. And then he acknowledged it with his emotional outcry of ‘my Lord and my God.’ In Greek, the words in English, if not reordered, would come out in this sequence: ‘the Lord of me, and the God of me.’ They can be considered one person or two personalities.

The two answer I give below consider both possibilities as the actual thoughts of Thomas.

1. Jesus was Lord, and a mighty god or mighty one of God because this was a common expression or term to use for one in the service of God. And Jesus deserved it more that any one.

Jesus knew he had power and authority given to him by his Father, He realized that Thomas recognized this and called him the mighty god or mighty one of God.

Now as I have said months before, the original Greek recordings of scripture and also in Hebrew, were all written in all caps with no spaces and punctuation, without Chapter or verse divisions.

It was up to the translator to use his good judgement and make Theos a capital or not.

The Hebrew or Hebraic version for the Greek word ‘Theos’ is ‘El’ or a form of it. Even Elohim, the plural, as this was used to emphasis power and complete dominance by a person or of God Almighty over people or life in general. I bring the Hebrew into the conversation because even though John wrote and spoke in koine Greek, he was a Jew/Judahite and knew Hebrew text, its religion, culture and spoke and wrote in Aramaic. He would have thought in Aramaic and possibly Hebrew, maybe not, and then mentally translated it into the Greek form or symbol.

In the OT there are examples where people of God, Moses the judges, sons of God, were called god or gods, Even the angels were called gods, the evil or the accuser of this world was called, the god of this world. So, it would not be too difficult to understand that John intended to use little theos when Thomas said Jesus was god. Jesus was the Lord and had the power of God with and within him. He has dominion over men because of his Father’s power that was working through him. Thomas realized that the power behind the throne and Kingdom given to Jesus was ultimately from his Father and God Almighty. Besides, his Father did raise him from the dead with his power that Jesus never had until he was given immortality upon his resurrection.

(Psa 45:6) Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
(Psa 45:7) you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;

In Psalms 45:6-7 we read implicitly that Jehovah God Almighty gave a throne to Jesus, a throne that is eternal or will live for ages to come. Jehovah God thus previously anointed his Son, Jesus and made him ‘higher’ that any human being that ever lived. Jesus is esteemed and given authority of any living creature beside his Father of course.

So here in verse 6 the translation should be ‘el’/’’theos’ the little god or ‘mighty one’ and not big God as for Jehovah. Jesus did not anoint himself. That would be nonsense.

Psalms 45:6-6 is echoed again in the New Testament of Hebrews 1:8-9.

And/ Or 2.

2. Thomas thought that Jesus was Lord and that God, because his Father lives in Jesus, literally, directs and speaks to him and now is speaking through Jesus to me.

Now remember that Jesus taught his disciples, including Thomas and others the truth about himself and his Father. He spoke or at least one of his disciples wrote:

1. My Father lives within me – John 14:10.

2. If you have seen me, you have seen the Father - John 14:9.

3. I have made God known or explained God (my Father) to you – John 1:18

4. I speak for the Father and not for myself – John 12:49, 14:10.

5. My Father is greater than me – John 10:29, 14:28


You answer is not my #3., that Thomas was saying Jesus is God Almighty. It has no scriptural merit at all.

This was your supporting statement: “If Jesus was NOT God - He would have rebuked Thomas for BLASPHEMY.”

Jesus knew he was not God, only the vessel and voice for his Father and to do his bidding, according to scripture – John 5:20, 10:25. The Father dwelt in him, in mind and spirit. Thomas acknowledged that God (The Father) was living in Jesus, literally.

Jesus was the light to mankind, not the life or living source of the power for this light, who is his Father, God Almighty – John 1:5,8, 12:46. There is a difference.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[BreadOfLife]

Anyway, I was not ‘limiting anything’ about or of God and his power BOL. I’m still puzzled where I said that or even implied it. Never the less I would like to move on, to John 20:28, as I promised.

Backdrop:

John 20:28 is about Thomas suddenly realizing for the first time that God his Father did indeed raise Jesus from the dead, as Jesus said he would. And then he acknowledged it with his emotional outcry of ‘my Lord and my God.’ In Greek, the words in English, if not reordered, would come out in this sequence: ‘the Lord of me, and the God of me.’ They can be considered one person or two personalities.

The two answer I give below consider both possibilities as the actual thoughts of Thomas.

1. Jesus was Lord, and a mighty god or mighty one of God because this was a common expression or term to use for one in the service of God. And Jesus deserved it more that any one.

Jesus knew he had power and authority given to him by his Father, He realized that Thomas recognized this and called him the mighty god or mighty one of God.

Now as I have said months before, the original Greek recordings of scripture and also in Hebrew, were all written in all caps with no spaces and punctuation, without Chapter or verse divisions.

It was up to the translator to use his good judgement and make Theos a capital or not.

The Hebrew or Hebraic version for the Greek word ‘Theos’ is ‘El’ or a form of it. Even Elohim, the plural, as this was used to emphasis power and complete dominance by a person or of God Almighty over people or life in general. I bring the Hebrew into the conversation because even though John wrote and spoke in koine Greek, he was a Jew/Judahite and knew Hebrew text, its religion, culture and spoke and wrote in Aramaic. He would have thought in Aramaic and possibly Hebrew, maybe not, and then mentally translated it into the Greek form or symbol.

In the OT there are examples where people of God, Moses the judges, sons of God, were called god or gods, Even the angels were called gods, the evil or the accuser of this world was called, the god of this world. So, it would not be too difficult to understand that John intended to use little theos when Thomas said Jesus was god. Jesus was the Lord and had the power of God with and within him. He has dominion over men because of his Father’s power that was working through him. Thomas realized that the power behind the throne and Kingdom given to Jesus was ultimately from his Father and God Almighty. Besides, his Father did raise him from the dead with his power that Jesus never had until he was given immortality upon his resurrection.

(Psa 45:6) Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
(Psa 45:7) you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;

In Psalms 45:6-7 we read implicitly that Jehovah God Almighty gave a throne to Jesus, a throne that is eternal or will live for ages to come. Jehovah God thus previously anointed his Son, Jesus and made him ‘higher’ that any human being that ever lived. Jesus is esteemed and given authority of any living creature beside his Father of course.

So here in verse 6 the translation should be ‘el’/’’theos’ the little god or ‘mighty one’ and not big God as for Jehovah. Jesus did not anoint himself. That would be nonsense.

Psalms 45:6-6 is echoed again in the New Testament of Hebrews 1:8-9.

And/ Or 2.

2. Thomas thought that Jesus was Lord and that God, because his Father lives in Jesus, literally, directs and speaks to him and now is speaking through Jesus to me.

Now remember that Jesus taught his disciples, including Thomas and others the truth about himself and his Father. He spoke or at least one of his disciples wrote:

1. My Father lives within me – John 14:10.

2. If you have seen me, you have seen the Father - John 14:9.
3. I have made God known or explained God (my Father) to you – John 1:18
4. I speak for the Father and not for myself – John 12:49, 14:10.
5. My Father is greater than me – John 10:29, 14:28

You answer is not my #3., that Thomas was saying Jesus is God Almighty. It has no scriptural merit at all.

This was your supporting statement: “If Jesus was NOT God - He would have rebuked Thomas for BLASPHEMY.”

Jesus knew he was not God, only the vessel and voice for his Father and to do his bidding, according to scripture – John 5:20, 10:25. The Father dwelt in him, in mind and spirit. Thomas acknowledged that God (The Father) was living in Jesus, literally.

Jesus was the light to mankind, not the life or living source of the power for this light, who is his Father, God Almighty – John 1:5,8, 12:46. There is a difference.

Bless you,

APAK

Like I said before - it's fun watching your verbose Scriptural acrobatics - but you keep falling on your face.

ALL of your responses take MANY paragraphs to explain away your fanciful excuses as to why Christ cannot be God - even though Scripture states it plainly - over and over again.
The shell game you just played with the Aramaic/Hebrew/Greek might seem impressive to the uneducated - but NOT to those of us who understand your game.

The fact REMAINS:
Jesus would have rebuked Thomas for calling Him "My Lord and my God" if He was NOT God. He would have rebuked him for falling to his knees before Him in adoration.
You can TRY to explain that away all day long and you won't be able to . . .

 

[APAK]

@BreadOfLife ...I still take your responses seriously and I appreciate you listening to me regardless your comments. I will be gone for a couple of weeks or so, by Friday.

Have a great day and find some of scriptures for us to entertain when I get back if you want. I know there are a few dozen that you might like me to entertain.

Bless you,

APAK