Another Premillennial absurdity

[Randy Kluth]

How do you feel about our Lord Jesus calling things out as he saw it....like you snake, and you have the devil for your father, you hypocrite, your evil and a liar etc?
WPM is not that colorful is he Randy?
Truth hurts sometimes I know and we need teachers who do not add water and compromise the truth.

If I was Jesus I could rebuke anybody as I saw fit. But I have a Sin Nature and have to be careful. So I feel comfortable telling you how I feel about this so-called "teacher." I never feel edified by him. He just argues, and has his own interests in mind.

Sorry if the truth hurts *you,* and your "teacher!" My goal is quite simple: to encourage you to submit to Christ's love, and so to be pleasing to him. I have the same goals for myself.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Aren't you a really nice person? I am sure he is going to lose sleep over this. Do you never step back and consider how your pettiness looks to grown adults? Some mature Premiller in the faith should pull you aside and tell you to finally grow up.

I'm not being petty. You don't edify me, brother. You need to know that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hello! Breaking news: we have entered the new covenant. The old is gone forever. Race means nothing today. It is all about grace. The Gospel is open equally to Jews and Gentiles alike. There is no racial favoritism any more. Thank God!

That's "breaking news?" Incidentally, it is not true that race means nothing today. God created diversity, and it should be recognized. There is a diversity of nations, and God may make different promises to each one. We should also recognize that.

Where race does not count is in the matter of qualifications for Salvation. God is non-discriminatory, and offers Salvation equally to every race and every nation.

But the conditions remain the same. Repentance by turning our own ways over to living God's way. We must make sure we're doing that, or we haven't fully repented.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I have many Premil friends. They are gracious and Christian in their approach. They are not vicious and vindictive when someone disagrees with them.

Why haven't you learned anything from them?

 

[covenantee]

God has purposes for 3 groups - `Give no offence, either to the Jews or to the Greeks, (nations) or to the church of God.` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

Where does it say the Old Testament saints are part of the Body?

1 Corinthians 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[Marilyn C]

Same thing, varying symbolism; just like we are sheep and also wheat. This is simple to grasp for the indoctrinated mind.

However, a symbol needs to be based on a doctrine, which has scriptural proof. Where are those scriptures?

 

[Marilyn C]

This is the Pretrib default and the Premil default when they have no answers to their opponents arguments: post a link or present a spurious chart that proves nothing.

``How that by revelation he made known to me the mystery ...which in other ages was NOT made known to the sons of men...` (Eph. 3: 3 - 5)

 

[Marilyn C]

1 Corinthians 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Yes, the Rock is Christ, and the OT saints have their salvation based on Him and their inheritance in Him. However, their inheritance is in a different place than us but still all under Christ`s rulership and in God`s great kingdom.

God planned that each realm would have rulership and all under Christ.

 

[Marilyn C]

The bride makes herself ready ( through sanctification and faith in the truth )
She descends from heaven all prepared like a bride.

Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and shout for joy! Let us give Him glory and honor, for the marriage of the Lamb has come [at last] and His bride (the redeemed) has prepared herself.”


Matt 25
6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look! The bridegroom [is coming]! Go out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins got up and put their own lamps in order [trimmed the wicks and added oil and lit them]. 8 But the foolish virgins said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise replied, ‘No, otherwise there will not be enough for us and for you, too; go instead to the dealers and buy oil for yourselves.’ 10 But while they were going away to buy oil, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut and locked. 11 Later the others also came, and said, ‘Lord, Lord, open [the door] for us.’ 12 But He replied, ‘I assure you and most solemnly say to you, I do not know you [we have no relationship].’ 13 Therefore, be on the alert [be prepared and ready], for you do not know the day nor the hour [when the Son of Man will come].


Revelation 21:2
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, arrayed like a bride adorned for her husband;


9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven final plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a vast and lofty mountain, and showed me the holy (sanctified) city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having God’s glory [filled with His radiant light].


Heb 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels [in festive gathering], 23 and to the general assembly and assembly of the firstborn who are registered [as citizens] in heaven, and to God, who is Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous (the redeemed in heaven) who have been made perfect [bringing them to their final glory], 24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant [uniting God and man], and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks [of mercy], a better and nobler and more gracious message than the blood of Abel [which cried out for vengeance].

Hi jeff,

Glad someone has done some work to give the scriptures to do with the bride. However, they are all to do with different times and groups.

Rev. 19: 7 and Matt 25 are to do with Israel, the wife, and is God connecting to Israel in time.

Rev. 21: 2 relates to the city in the NHNE.

Heb. 12: 22 Mount Zion is the ruling area where the Lord and those with Him, (Body of Christ) rule from. (Ps. 2: 6 Rev. 3; 21) The `city` is a separate part and comes down out of heaven from God. that is the inheritance of the OT saints. (Heb. 11: 16) And that will be in the NHNE.

 

[covenantee]

Yes, the Rock is Christ, and the OT saints have their salvation based on Him and their inheritance in Him. However, their inheritance is in a different place than us but still all under Christ`s rulership and in God`s great kingdom.

God planned that each realm would have rulership and all under Christ.

All who partake of Christ become part of His Body. There are no spiritual distinctions or differences of any kind within His Body.

From ancient Israel to when He returns; and forever.

 

[WPM]

That's "breaking news?" Incidentally, it is not true that race means nothing today. God created diversity, and it should be recognized. There is a diversity of nations, and God may make different promises to each one. We should also recognize that.

Where race does not count is in the matter of qualifications for Salvation. God is non-discriminatory, and offers Salvation equally to every race and every nation.

But the conditions remain the same. Repentance by turning our own ways over to living God's way. We must make sure we're doing that, or we haven't fully repented.

A renunciation of racial superiority was pressed hard by that Hebrew of the Hebrews Paul the Apostle throughout the New Testament in clear, unambiguous and unwavering terms. It left no room for uncertainty. Galatians 6:15-16 emphasizes: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

Scripture couldn’t be clearer! Race means nothing today. Salvation renders racial distinctions unimportant and irrelevant. Jewishness is nothing, neither is Gentilenesss. The race barriers have been demolished under the new covenant. Those that would argue that a man’s natural race carries any worth or virtue before God when it comes to salvation or that it in any way adds anything to a man’s spiritual status are severely censured by passages like these.

N. T. Wright asserts: “Paul makes it abundantly clear that there is no covenant membership, and consequently no salvation, for those who simply rest on their ancestral privilege” (The Climax of the Covenant: Christ and the Law in Pauline Theology).

Galatians 3:28 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

There is no allowance for ethnic difference within the body of Christ. There are no subgroups, cultures, color’s or creeds, just one harmonious redeemed company that has been unified through the person and work of Christ our Savior. Those that have the Spirit of Christ in both the Old and the New Testament are the true seed of Abraham – that father of the faith.

Colossians 3:9-11, 15 says, to the believer, “ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all … And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body.”

Many futurists have God favoring Jews above every other nationality on the grounds of their birth right or circumcision today. This is a mistake. Physical status means absolutely nothing to Christ; it is an inward attitude of heart that matters. The favored position that Israel enjoyed in the Old Testament was done away at the cross.

We see here, Jewishness means nothing in a spiritual sense today. Paul was only mentioning Jew and Greek in this reading to show the reality of two different natural people. Whilst there is a difference between Nigerians and Irish in the natural, in Christ there is no difference spiritually. Nationality carries to favors today. There is indeed neither Jew nor Greek.

 

[WPM]

``How that by revelation he made known to me the mystery ...which in other ages was NOT made known to the sons of men...` (Eph. 3: 3 - 5)

And what is your point?

 

[WPM]

However, a symbol needs to be based on a doctrine, which has scriptural proof. Where are those scriptures?

Absolutely, something that demolishes Dispensatanism. There are only 2 peoples in the world: saved (those in Christ) and lost (those in Adam).

 

[Marilyn C]

All who partake of Christ become part of His Body. There are no spiritual distinctions or differences of any kind within His Body.

From ancient Israel to when He returns; and forever.

And scriptures?

 

[Marilyn C]

And what is your point?

Point is that it was ONLY when the Lord ascended to the Father that He was made head of the Body. (Eph. 1: 22) And then He sent His Holy Spirit to begin building and maturing the Body. (1 Cor. 12: 13) And this Body, the New Man, (Eph. 2: 15) was a revelation NOT revealed before. (Eph. 3: 5)

 

[Marilyn C]

And what is your point?

Point is that it was ONLY when the Lord ascended to the Father that He was made head of the Body. (Eph. 1: 22) And then He sent His Holy Spirit to begin building and maturing the Body. (1 Cor. 12: 13) And this Body, the New Man, (Eph. 2: 15) was a revelation NOT revealed before. (Eph. 3: 5)

 

[Marilyn C]

Absolutely, something that demolishes Dispensatanism. There are only 2 peoples in the world: saved (those in Christ) and lost (those in Adam).

Strange when God Himself recognises three groups - Israel, the nations and the Body of Christ. (1 Cor. 10:32)

 

[covenantee]

And scriptures?

1 Corinthians 10
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[WPM]

Why haven't you learned anything from them?

Strange when God Himself recognises three groups - Israel, the nations and the Body of Christ. (1 Cor. 10:32)

This has to be the weakness argument of any school of thought trying to prove their elaborate position. You take this innocuous passage in 1 Corinthians 10:32, which is simply speaking of eating and drinking onto idols, and build a whole elaborate eschatological theology around it. You do this to support their belief that there are three distinct peoples in this world.

This reading has absolutely nothing to do with categorizing the peoples of this world into three distinct spiritual groups, or is it anything to do with the second coming of Christ, or some supposed future seven-year tribulation. Rather, it is simply speaking of, and relating to, the subject of eating unto idols. This passage is in essence saying that believers must respect the eating customs of all, whether in our everyday life among the Jew and non-Jew (with their distinct customs) or whether among believers – the Church of Jesus Christ. We must eat as unto the Lord wherever we go, unless that food it is sacrificed unto idols (v28). 1 Corinthians 10:31-32 thus says, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.”

This passage separates unbelievers into two distinct groups Jews and Gentiles because they have two diametrically different systems of eating. This was the issue under discussion. That was why Paul divided the unbelievers. He is illustrating the fact that wherever you are among the brethren (the church of God) or outside among the unsaved (Jew or Gentile) “do all to the glory of God.” This passage is addressing a natural issue – albeit, it is for the purpose of outlining spiritual wisdom and truth. This reading is not suggesting or hinting at the notion that there are three types of people in God’s eyes. There isn’t! There are either saved or lost. Jews and Gentiles are found in both groups.

Therefore, to build such a major doctrine upon such a totally unrelated isolated passage is both naïve, unwise and mistaken. Notably, this is the only passage that the dispensationalists can find that identifies three groupings of people in the world. And, as we have already seen, it is nothing to do with dispensationalism, notwithstanding, they force their whole school of thought into this reading as if it will somehow prop up this carefully constructed sandcastle.

John Gay states in an article Remnant Theology: “This passage is often used to justify a parallel distinction between Israel and the Church, but that is not what the passage is doing or saying. The immediate context shows that ‘Jews’ refers to unsaved Jews, ‘Greeks’ to unsaved Greeks, and the ‘church of God’ to the saved (whether Jew or Greek). Therefore, the passage is consistent with the rest of the Bible in that it makes a parallel distinction between (1) Jew and Gentile, and between (2) the saved and the unsaved. Also consistent with the rest of Scripture, it does not make a parallel distinction between national Israel and the Church--which would be a category error.”

Significantly, the word rendered “Gentiles” in 1 Corinthians 10:32 in the AV is the Greek word helleesin which properly interpreted means a hellen or a Grecian or an inhabitant of Hellas in Greece. It is translated Greek in John 12:20, Acts 14:1, 16:1, 16:3, 17:4, 18:4, 19:10, 19:17, 20:21, 21:28, Romans 1:14, 1:16, 10:12, 1 Corinthians 1:22, 1:24, Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11.

 

[Randy Kluth]

A renunciation of racial superiority was pressed hard by that Hebrew of the Hebrews Paul the Apostle throughout the New Testament in clear, unambiguous and unwavering terms. It left no room for uncertainty. Galatians 6:15-16 emphasizes: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

Scripture couldn’t be clearer! Race means nothing today. Salvation renders racial distinctions unimportant and irrelevant. Jewishness is nothing, neither is Gentilenesss. The race barriers have been demolished under the new covenant. Those that would argue that a man’s natural race carries any worth or virtue before God when it comes to salvation or that it in any way adds anything to a man’s spiritual status are severely censured by passages like these.

N. T. Wright asserts: “Paul makes it abundantly clear that there is no covenant membership, and consequently no salvation, for those who simply rest on their ancestral privilege” (The Climax of the Covenant: Christ and the Law in Pauline Theology).

Galatians 3:28 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

There is no allowance for ethnic difference within the body of Christ. There are no subgroups, cultures, color’s or creeds, just one harmonious redeemed company that has been unified through the person and work of Christ our Savior. Those that have the Spirit of Christ in both the Old and the New Testament are the true seed of Abraham – that father of the faith.

Colossians 3:9-11, 15 says, to the believer, “ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all … And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body.”

Many futurists have God favoring Jews above every other nationality on the grounds of their birth right or circumcision today. This is a mistake. Physical status means absolutely nothing to Christ; it is an inward attitude of heart that matters. The favored position that Israel enjoyed in the Old Testament was done away at the cross.

We see here, Jewishness means nothing in a spiritual sense today. Paul was only mentioning Jew and Greek in this reading to show the reality of two different natural people. Whilst there is a difference between Nigerians and Irish in the natural, in Christ there is no difference spiritually. Nationality carries to favors today. There is indeed neither Jew nor Greek.

I notice that you just repeat what I've already said, that racial and national distinctions mean nothing with respect to Salvation and membership in the Body of Christ. But saying racial and national distinctions mean nothing or are non-existent we simply need to look at the fact Paul referred to these distinctions. Paul continues to mention "Israel," in distinction to other nations. And he mentions "Gentiles," in distinction to Israel. The book of Revelation makes a number of references to nations and ethnicities.

And these distinctions remain important because God is fulfilling promises made to Abraham, that he would father the nation Israel and many other nations. If national distinctions are unimportant, then God's promise to have "many nations" could be changed to mean "one nation." If racial distinctions weren't important, then God's promise to Abraham to gather his descendants into a nation could be changed into "non-descendants can be gathered into a nation." Obviously, that's wrong.

The regular quoting of the deemphasis on racial and national distinctions, with respect to membership in Christ's one Body, continually ignores this, completely ignoring the elements central to God fulfilling His promises to "many nations." It would truly be absurd in this world if Christians stopped using words like S. African or Jew. Saying those distinctions no longer exist for the Christian is truly absurd!