Another Premillennial absurdity

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Timtofly

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What are you talking about? Amils have showed you for years the error of your ways, but you refuse to receive it. They have ably and repeatedly demonstrated how humans that reject Christ and follow Satan are dirty vile stinking sinners. You cannot accept that because it cuts across your false teaching. The problem with you is, you do not even understand what sin is.

Does Gog and Magog (Rev 20) end up on the new earth or the lake of fire for all eternity?
You don't understand how sin enters the world. That is the error of your biased opinions.

Are you saying Adam and Eve will end up in the LOF?

Do all of the dead in this verse enter the LOF:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

You claim sin is gone at the Second Coming. Now you have changed your opinion?
 

Randy Kluth

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Your 3 groups are supposedly: (1) “the Christians,” (2) “those who have made the wrong choices in the present age” and (3) “those who have not yet made up their minds.”
Not interested in the "personal commentary." These 3 groups have always existed. I don't require a Bible verse to prove the sun will go down at night and will come up in the morning. Neither do I need a Bible verse to prove that right now in the world these 3 classes of people presently exist, those who have accepted the Gospel, those who have rejected the Gospel, and those to whom we're commissioned to preach the Gospel.

I assume these conditions exist all the way until the end of the age, until the very last day of the age. Jesus said :

Matt 10.23 Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Now, I don't believe this actually refers to the 2nd Coming, but regardless, there is a principle that not everyone will be adequately prepared for Christ's judgment against society.

I don't need to prove that there are Christians up until the end of the age, when they will be glorified and rewarded. And I don't need to prove that the wicked will reject Christ all the way up until the last day of the age, since that is when Antichrist is judged.
 

WPM

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Not interested in the "personal commentary." These 3 groups have always existed. I don't require a Bible verse to prove the sun will go down at night and will come up in the morning. Neither do I need a Bible verse to prove that right now in the world these 3 classes of people presently exist, those who have accepted the Gospel, those who have rejected the Gospel, and those to whom we're commissioned to preach the Gospel.

I assume these conditions exist all the way until the end of the age, until the very last day of the age. Jesus said :

Matt 10.23 Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Now, I don't believe this actually refers to the 2nd Coming, but regardless, there is a principle that not everyone will be adequately prepared for Christ's judgment against society.

I don't need to prove that there are Christians up until the end of the age, when they will be glorified and rewarded. And I don't need to prove that the wicked will reject Christ all the way up until the last day of the age, since that is when Antichrist is judged.

Where does Matt 10.23 teach that there are 3 classes of people in life? Nowhere.

So, once again, you present no Scripture to support your wild claims. You think that you stating a thing makes it a fact. Well, no. Definitely not. Quite the opposite. What is more, you totally avoided the Scriptures I presented (to refute your claims), which is what you do.

All men are either saved or lost, they are either of God or Satan. Simple! You invent a third group that Scripture knows nothing of.
 
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WPM

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Please show where Scripture says Revelation 20 happened in the first century. Then you have an excuse to make demands.

This shows the victory of the first resurrection and the emptying of Abraham's bosom of the dead in Christ to reign with Christ in heaven during the intra-Advent period. It also shows the enlightenment of the nations on earth with the glorious Gospel of Christ. It shows the saints undergoing intensified persecution by the world (Gog and Magog) on earth prior to Jesus return.
 

Randy Kluth

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Where does Matt 10.23 teach that there are 3 classes of people in life? Nowhere.

So, once again, you present no Scripture to support your wild claims. You think that you stating a thing makes it a fact. Well, no. Definitely not. Quite the opposite. What is more, you totally avoided the Scriptures I presented (to refute your claims), which is what you do.

All men are either saved or lost, they are either of God or Satan. Simple! You invent a third group that Scripture knows nothing of.
Not interested in the personal commentary. I made my case.
 

WPM

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Not interested in the personal commentary. I made my case.

LOL. No you did not! Clearly, you have nothing! I thought so. Every lurker should note this. You have no rebuttal because what you are sharing is extra-biblical. You cannot address the scriptural text because it forbids your theological imaginations.

There is nothing personal. You are a master of playing the victim, when you are indeed the perpetrator.
 
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Randy Kluth

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LOL. So, you have nothing! I thought so. Every lurker should note this. You have no rebuttal because what you are sharing is extra-biblical. You cannot address the scriptural text because it forbids your theological imaginations.

There is nothing personal. You are a master of playing the victim, when you are indeed the perpetrator.
You try to regularly provoke me with your "personal commentary." It is indeed "personal" when I tell you I'm not interested in it. I've exposed your relentless pursuit of Amill theory as questionable at best. I've answered your questions, and exposed what I saw as your errors.
 

WPM

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You try to regularly provoke me with your "personal commentary." It is indeed "personal" when I tell you I'm not interested in it. I've exposed your relentless pursuit of Amill theory as questionable at best. I've answered your questions, and exposed what I saw as your errors.

Stop avoiding! Where does Matt 10.23 teach that there are 3 classes of people in life?
 

Randy Kluth

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Where does Matt 10.23 teach that there are 3 classes of people in life?
Matt 10.23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

As I said, this verse does not, for me, apply to the 2nd Coming, though I could be wrong. I think it refers to Jesus' reference to his coming, the 1st time, to judge Israel.

In Dan 7 the Son of Man comes with apocalyptic judgment. But it is apparent that Jesus came the 1st time to offer Salvation to the whole world and at the same time threaten temporal judgments until the age is done.

The principle involved concerns Jesus' call to his Apostles to warn Israel first about the coming judgment in 70 AD. But he admitted that as diligent as they may be in doing this, they will not succeed in reaching everybody--there will be those without a proper witness.

The principle is the same for the end of the age. If Jesus continues to bring judgment even with some people still living in ignorance then it remains likely that apocalyptic judgment will also come before every last individual on earth is properly warned.
 

WPM

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Matt 10.23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

As I said, this verse does not, for me, apply to the 2nd Coming, though I could be wrong. I think it refers to Jesus' reference to his coming, the 1st time, to judge Israel.

In Dan 7 the Son of Man comes with apocalyptic judgment. But it is apparent that Jesus came the 1st time to offer Salvation to the whole world and at the same time threaten temporal judgments until the age is done.

The principle involved concerns Jesus' call to his Apostles to warn Israel first about the coming judgment in 70 AD. But he admitted that as diligent as they may be in doing this, they will not succeed in reaching everybody--there will be those without a proper witness.

The principle is the same for the end of the age. If Jesus continues to bring judgment even with some people still living in ignorance then it remains likely that apocalyptic judgment will also come before every last individual on earth is properly warned.

And? They are either saved or not saved! This is not proving your claims. Show me hard Scripture, instead of always voicing your opinions. Not to decide is to decide. These are also “wicked,” “ungodly,” “unjust” and “children of the devil.”

Why are you ducking around hard Scripture?

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If a man loves Christ He is saved. He will escape the wrath of God, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!!

Jesus said in Matthew 12:30, He that is not with me is against me.”

The only chosen people that God knows and accepts are those that accept His Son. The rest are of their father the devil.

Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are under condemnation and are therefore of their father the devil.

1 John 5:12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”
 
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Randy Kluth

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And? They are either saved or not saved!
I'm not interested in your personal commentary.

I answered your question. I don't agree they are either saved or not saved. They remain in a state of not having heard a clear testimony. So when Jesus comes, they will enter into the new age, and have opportunity after Christ returns to accept the dictates of his Kingdom.

We already know that people survive Armageddon and are still alive when Jesus returns. We are told in Zechariah that Israel will witness Jesus' return, and mourn. We are told in the book of Revelation the whole world will witness Jesus' return, and mourn. We are told that some Christians will remain alive when Jesus' returns, and will not have to die to participate in their glorification--the transition itself will be a kind of "death."

If people are alive when Jesus' returns, and I've just proven that, then they are in any of the 3 conditions I just described, saved, judged, or remaining alive and still without a proper witness. They will be given that opportunity in the new age, since the Abrahamic Promises ensure that not only will Israel be saved as a nation, but she will be joined by many nations.
 

WPM

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I answered your question. I don't agree they are either saved or not saved. They remain in a state of not having heard a clear testimony. So when Jesus comes, they will enter into the new age, and have opportunity after Christ returns to accept the dictates of his Kingdom.

We already know that people survive Armageddon and are still alive when Jesus returns. We are told in Zechariah that Israel will witness Jesus' return, and mourn. We are told in the book of Revelation the whole world will witness Jesus' return, and mourn. We are told that some Christians will remain alive when Jesus' returns, and will not have to die to participate in their glorification--the transition itself will be a kind of "death."

If people are alive when Jesus' returns, and I've just proven that, then they are in any of the 3 conditions I just described, saved, judged, or remaining alive and still without a proper witness. They will be given that opportunity in the new age, since the Abrahamic Promises ensure that not only will Israel be saved as a nation, but she will be joined by many nations.

Not true!

Where in Scripture does it teach: when Jesus comes “those who have not yet made up their minds" will enter into the new age, and have opportunity after Christ returns to accept the dictates of his Kingdom?
 

Randy Kluth

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Not true!

Where in Scripture does it teach: when Jesus comes “those who have not yet made up their minds" will enter into the new age, and have opportunity after Christ returns to accept the dictates of his Kingdom?
You were just told. Zech 12.10 and Rev 1.7. They are mourning their failure to make a choice for Christ, having not known him. And we read throughout the Prophets that Israel will come to repentance.

Isaiah 54.1
“Sing, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
burst into song, shout for joy,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband,”
says the Lord.
2 “Enlarge the place of your tent,
stretch your tent curtains wide,
do not hold back;
lengthen your cords,
strengthen your stakes.
3 For you will spread out to the right and to the left;
your descendants will dispossess nations
and settle in their desolate cities.
4 “Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame.
Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.
You will forget the shame of your youth
and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.
5 For your Maker is your husband—
the Lord Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
he is called the God of all the earth.
6 The Lord will call you back
as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
only to be rejected,” says your God.
7 “For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8 In a surge of anger
I hid my face from you for a moment,
but with everlasting kindness
I will have compassion on you,”
says the Lord your Redeemer.

Jer 3.16 In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land,” declares the Lord, “people will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of the Lord.’ It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made. 17 At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the Lord, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the Lord. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts. 18 In those days the people of Judah will join the people of Israel, and together they will come from a northern land to the land I gave your ancestors as an inheritance.
31.31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.

Eze 36.8 “‘But you, mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home. 9 I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown, 10 and I will cause many people to live on you—yes, all of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. 11 I will increase the number of people and animals living on you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the Lord. 12 I will cause people, my people Israel, to live on you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children.
 
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WPM

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You were just told. Zech 12.10 and Rev 1.7. They are mourning their failure to make a choice for Christ, having not known him. And we read throughout the Prophets that Israel will come to repentance.

Isaiah 54.1
“Sing, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
burst into song, shout for joy,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband,”
says the Lord.
2 “Enlarge the place of your tent,
stretch your tent curtains wide,
do not hold back;
lengthen your cords,
strengthen your stakes.
3 For you will spread out to the right and to the left;
your descendants will dispossess nations
and settle in their desolate cities.
4 “Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame.
Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.
You will forget the shame of your youth
and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.
5 For your Maker is your husband—
the Lord Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
he is called the God of all the earth.
6 The Lord will call you back
as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
only to be rejected,” says your God.
7 “For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8 In a surge of anger
I hid my face from you for a moment,
but with everlasting kindness
I will have compassion on you,”
says the Lord your Redeemer.

Jer 3.16 In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land,” declares the Lord, “people will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of the Lord.’ It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made. 17 At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the Lord, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the Lord. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts. 18 In those days the people of Judah will join the people of Israel, and together they will come from a northern land to the land I gave your ancestors as an inheritance.
31.31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.

Boy oh boy. This is getting wearisome. You are obviously lost for Scripture. None of these passages mention a supposed future millennium. Nowhere! Neither of these passages describe any detail pertaining to Revelation 20. There is zero correlation. It is in your imagination. You force that into these Old Testament passages. No scripture is safe with your form of hermeneutics.

Where in Revelation 1:7, Isaiah 54:1-8, Jeremiah 3:16, 31:31-34 and Zechariah 12:10 does it teach: when Jesus comes “those who have not yet made up their minds" will enter into the new age, and have opportunity after Christ returns to accept the dictates of his Kingdom?
 
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Randy Kluth

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Boy oh boy. This is getting wearisome. You are obviously lost for Scripture. Neither of these two passages mention a supposed future millennium. Nowhere! Neither of these passages describe any detail pertaining to Revelation 20. There is zero correlation. It is in your imagination. You force that into these Old Testament passages. No scripture is safe with your form of hermeneutics.

Where in Revelation 1:7, Isaiah 54:1-8, Jer 3:16, 31:31-34 and Zechariah 12:10 does it teach: when Jesus comes “those who have not yet made up their minds" will enter into the new age, and have opportunity after Christ returns to accept the dictates of his Kingdom?
You've already been told. Israel is repenting in those passages, at a time when they've been long forsaken by God. So when Israel mourns at the coming of the Messiah, they *repent,* as these passages indicate.

These prophecies are not going to correlate with mention of the Millennium in Rev 20, because they were written long, long before John wrote down his Revelation. What we need is for the Millennium of Rev 20 to correlate with previous prophecies and promises.

I've already pointed out to you what these things were that the Millennium is associating with. They are the promises God made to Abraham concerning Israel and the nations that share the faith of Abraham. For that to happen Israel must repent at the coming of Christ, just as Jesus said their national punishment will only end at that time.

Luke 21.22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

So we know that Israel still has to repent, after a long period of falling away. And we know it will happen when Jesus comes again. They are said to see Jesus at his return, and will mourn, indicating that they are about to repent.

In the OT it was not necessary to give the length of time for this restoration of Israel and of the nations who have the faith of Abraham. We now know it will be a thousand years.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”


It's apparent that Israel repents at the end of the age, when Christ returns. But as we learn, while Israel is under her period of punishment, Christ is reaching out to the rest of the nations to fulfill the part of God's promises that ensured Abraham would inherit many nations of faith.

This then is when Israel will be restored as a nation, at the Coming of Christ. But Antichrist, along with Satan, will have to be defeated for that to happen. So Christ is coming back to accomplish exactly that, in order for the promises God made to Abraham to be fulfilled.
 
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WPM

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You've already been told. Israel is repenting in those passages, at a time when they've been long forsaken by God. So when Israel mourns at the coming of the Messiah, they *repent,* as these passages indicate.

These prophecies are not going to correlate with mention of the Millennium in Rev 20, because they were written long, long before John wrote down his Revelation. What we need is for the Millennium of Rev 20 to correlate with previous prophecies and promises.

I've already pointed out to you what these things were that the Millennium is associating with. They are the promises God made to Abraham concerning Israel and the nations that share the faith of Abraham. For that to happen Israel must repent at the coming of Christ, just as Jesus said their national punishment will only end at that time.

Luke 21.22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

So we know that Israel still has to repent, after a long period of falling away. And we know it will happen when Jesus comes again. They are said to see Jesus at his return, and will mourn, indicating that they are about to repent.

In the OT it was not necessary to give the length of time for this restoration of Israel and of the nations who have the faith of Abraham. We now know it will be a thousand years.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”


This then is when Israel will be restored as a nation, at the Coming of Christ. But Antichrist, along with Satan, will have to be defeated for that to happen. So Christ is coming back to accomplish exactly that, in order for the promises God made to Abraham will be fulfilled.

This is classic Dispensationalism. What is more: none of these teach or describe a future millennium in any way. You know it.

Where does Luke 21.22 teach that "Israel still has to repent, after a long period of falling away, and that it will happen when Jesus comes again" ... "they ... will mourn, indicating that they are about to repent"?

Mourning

Christ speaks of the last day in Matthew 24:29-31, saying, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then (or tote or at that time) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn (or kopsontai), and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Here, in our reading, Christ identifies His one final future post-tribulation Coming as the time when He rescues His elect and immediately pours out His vengeance upon the elements and the wicked. Christ’s appearing and the resulting catching away of the saints is the final procedure in the process of redemption, and closes forever man’s opportunity of salvation. This account shows the awful terror of the wicked when they realize their hopeless state – doomed and damned for all eternity.

The word interpreted “mourn” in the AV in this account is the Greek word kopsontai which refers to the most extreme form of agony and sorrow. It means to wail, to cut down, to mourn and lament. It means ‘to beat the breast in grief’. This anguish significantly occurs at the end of the tribulation – a time that sees the end of this current universe. We are looking at a people that lament and bewail in the most excessive way because they have missed the rapture. Like those in Noah's day, the ark door has closed and the wrath of God faces all left behind. The awareness of this causes the wicked to lament and bewail.

As we see throughout in Scripture, tHis coming has a massive effect on the elements, immediately proceeding, during and following this Advent. It is also important to note at this juncture that the sun is completely darkened at the time just prior to the second coming and that Christ associates the destruction of the elements with the actual time of His coming. The Greek word kopsontai, which describes the absolute horror that the wicked experience on this awful day is also found in Revelation 1:7. Speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail (or kopsontai) because of him”

Some Premils try to place a meaning on the word kopsontai in these passages which don’t remotely exist. This is for the sole purpose of facilitate the populating of their supposed future millennium. In their reasoning, they render the Greek word translated “wail” or “mourn” in the King James Version as somehow repentance, and then ascribe salvation to these Christ-rejecters that have evidently missed the catching away. The word kopsontai is only found eight times in the New Testament, two of which actually refer to the cutting down of branches (Matthew 21:8, Mark 11:12). This gives us some insight into the intense type of the mourning in view. It is a mourning that cuts the individual down. There are two other Greek words used in the Bible for mourning – pentheo and threneo. They carry the usual sense of mourning or grieving. Not only does the word kopsontai not mean repentance but it is never translated as such in Scripture. Moreover, there is nothing in the reading that would suggest that this bewailing company that is left behind convert. It must be imported into the text. It describes the terror many will experience when they realise they have missed the catching away.

Anyway, the two words used for repentance in the Greek New Testament are metanoeo (equally metanoia) and metamellomai.

The mourning is not repentance. They are mourning because of what they did and consequently what they missed. They have finally been caught on. They missed the boat. Their stubbornness, rebellion and pride has caused them to miss the boat. They are damned and doomed for all eternity.

Rev 6:12-17: "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is the time of God's final wrath upon the earth. The wicked are so afraid of their impending doom that they want the mountains and rocks to fall on them. Think about this: being crushed by mountains and rocks appeals more to them than facing God's wrath. No wicked will survive this.

Once again, this text finishes with a rhetorical question. The obvious answer (to those who do not have their own theological agenda) is that no one will survive this climatic event.

Revelation 6:12-17 depicts the conflagration that accompanies the return of Christ. It sees the regeneration of this earth and the destruction of all the wicked. This agrees with multiple Scripture.

· The sun became black
· The moon became as blood
· The stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
· The heaven departs like a scroll
· Every mountain and island are moved out of their places

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally transformed. This occurs at the climactic return of Christ.

Scripture shows Jesus one and only coming to be totally climactic. When Jesus comes that is it - caught up or caught on, saved or lost, eternal bliss or eternal torment. It is the end. No one survives (see above).
 
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Randy Kluth

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This is classic Dispensationalism. What is more: none of these teach or describe a future millennium in any way.
I'm not a Dispensationalist, so no, it isn't classic Dispensationalism.
Where does Luke 21.22 teach that "Israel still has to repent, after a long period of falling away, and that it will happen when Jesus comes again" ... "they ... will mourn, indicating that they are about to repent"?
I quoted it for you. If you can't see my line of reasoning, you're incapable of objective judgment.
Not only does the word kopsontai not mean repentance but it is never translated as such in Scripture.
I never said the mourning of Israel and of the nations meant repentance. It is not just the shock of having failed to accept Christ, but it is also an acknowledgment that it is something they should *now* accept!

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

Zech 12.10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Clearly, there is a connection between "mourning" and "repentance." And if these people are to mourn, they cannot just immediately perish. They must acknowledge their wrong-doing, and then repent, by living a new life.

You are reading into the text that once mourning now they must immediately die. That is not in the text.

But what is assumed, and in related passages, is that people survive Armageddon, and Israel does repent. I showed you the passages. A long falling away, and a long punishment, does *not* indicate Israel has been cast off, and that they will never recover.

The promise made to Abraham indicated they will recover, they must recover. Their acknowledgment of Christ at his Coming is the beginning of this turnaround. Acknowledgement of sin precedes repentance. The Prophets said, "And then you will know that it is I, the Lord..."

· The sun became black
· The moon became as blood
· The stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
· The heaven departs like a scroll
· Every mountain and island are moved out of their places

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally transformed. This occurs at the climactic return of Christ.

Scripture shows Jesus one and only coming to be totally climactic. When Jesus comes that is it - caught up or caught on, saved or lost, eternal bliss or eternal torment. It is the end. No one survives (see above).
A climactic event is not synonymous with the annihilation of the universe. Many OT prophetic catastrophes were described in apocalyptic-type language. It was designed to show the enormity of the judgment, as well as the dangers of disobeying God.
 
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WPM

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I'm not a Dispensationalist, so no, it isn't classic Dispensationalism.

I quoted it for you. If you can't see my line of reasoning, you're incapable of objective judgment.

I never said the mourning of Israel and of the nations meant repentance. It is not just the shock of having failed to accept Christ, but it is also an acknowledgment that it is something they should *now* accept!

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

Zech 12.10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Clearly, there is a connection between "mourning" and "repentance." And if these people are to mourn, they cannot just immediately perish. They must acknowledge their wrong-doing, and then repent, by living a new life.

You are reading into the text that once mourning now they must immediately die. That is not in the text.

But what is assumed, and in related passages, is that people survive Armageddon, and Israel does repent. I showed you the passages. A long falling away, and a long punishment, does *not* indicate Israel has been cast off, and that they will never recover.

The promise made to Abraham indicated they will recover, they must recover. Their acknowledgment of Christ at his Coming is the beginning of this turnaround. Acknowledgement of sin precedes repentance. The Prophets said, "And then you will know that it is I, the Lord..."


A climactic event is not synonymous with the annihilation of the universe. Many OT prophetic catastrophes were described in apocalyptic-type language. It was designed to show the enormity of the judgment, as well as the dangers of disobeying God.

Zechariah 12:10 relates to the First Advent: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

The first time that Jesus came He came as Savior. The next time He comes He is coming as judge. If men are not ready, then they will be punished and sent to the lake of fire. There will be no time to repent when He comes. It will be too late. We will deliver His people before destruction (as in Noah and Lot's day) in 1/20th of a second (the twinkling of an eye). All left will be destroyed.

This passage relates to when Messiah appeared nearly 2,000 years ago. As predicted, salvation flowed out from the Cross – firstly to Israel, then to the nations. Many, many Jews have accepted Christ and His sacrifice for sin since then. Many came to a personal faith in Christ after the resurrection. Since then, countless Gentiles have entered into the joy of sins forgiven. The cross is man’s only hope; it is the only means by which sinful man (Jew or Gentile, pre-Calvary or post) can enter into union with God. It is the only way that man can be reconciled onto sinful creatures and experience the wonderful quickening “spirit of grace.” The Holy Spirit came like rivers of living water to all who would believe in Christ. Jews by the thousands, as well as new Gentile converts were the welcome recipients of this following Calvary.

John 19:30-37 says, “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken (speaking of Psalms 34:20). And again another scripture (speaking of Zechariah 12:10) saith, they shall look on him whom they pierced.”

Jesus nails it for us. There is no room for further debate, personal opinion, speculation to fit man's paradigms, when He locates it.

You can explain away the sacred text all you want but the Holy Ghost has already located this at the cross.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Zechariah 12:10 relates to the First Advent: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

The first time that Jesus came He came as Savior.
There are a number of OT prophecies where Christ's 1st and 2nd Coming are almost indistinguishable. It is after his 1st Coming that the two comings become more obviously distinguishable.

That's why the Jews had trouble accepting Christ when he came the 1st time. They expected him to perform the duties that are now associated with his 2nd Coming. They expected him to triumphantly overcome the Roman government and usher in the Kingdom of God. He did *not* do that!

Zech 12 contains elements of both 1st and 2nd Comings, therefore. The part about Israel mourning is clearly associated with the 2nd Coming, since John, in the Apocalypse, also applies the same to the world--not just Israel. It is the assumption that the world will have been evangelized, coming to the same knowledge that Israel had been given under the Law.

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

Zech 12.10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


The relationship of the 2 passages, and the clarity of the Zechariah passage, indicates not just that there is shock and acknowledgement of Christ, but that there is pity and compassion, as well, directed towards Christ's experience. This not only suggests repentance takes place, but it is also specifically mentioned in Zech 12-13--something that has not happened in Israel yet. It has yet to take place, and will take place at the 2nd Coming.

Zech 13.1 “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
2 “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land.


Of course, to identify what it was that the world will have pity towards we are also told in Zechariah what happened at Christ's 1st Coming. "They will look on me, the one they have pierced."

Identifying Christ and his experience at his 1st Coming does not, in any way, remove the context for the "mourning of Israel" from the 2nd Coming, since that has yet to take place. And as I've already shown you, there are a number of prophecies that place Israel's full national repentance at the 2nd Coming of Christ, after having seemed to have been abandoned for a long period of exile.
 
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WPM

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There are a number of OT prophecies where Christ's 1st and 2nd Coming are almost indistinguishable. It is after his 1st Coming that the two comings become more obviously distinguishable.

That's why the Jews had trouble accepting Christ when he came the 1st time. They expected him to perform the duties that are now associated with his 2nd Coming. They expected him to triumphantly overcome the Roman government and usher in the Kingdom of God. He did *not* do that!

Zech 12 contains elements of both 1st and 2nd Comings, therefore. The part about Israel mourning is clearly associated with the 2nd Coming, since John, in the Apocalypse, also applies the same to the world--not just Israel. It is the assumption that the world will have been evangelized, coming to the same knowledge that Israel had been given under the Law.

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

Zech 12.10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


The relationship of the 2 passages, and the clarity of the Zechariah passage, indicates not just that there is shock and acknowledgement of Christ, but that there is pity and compassion, as well, directed towards Christ's experience. This not only suggests repentance takes place, but it is also specifically mentioned in Zech 12-13--something that has not happened in Israel yet. It has yet to take place, and will take place at the 2nd Coming.

Zech 13.1 “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
2 “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land.


Of course, to identify what it was that the world will have pity towards we are also told in Zechariah what happened at Christ's 1st Coming. "They will look on me, the one they have pierced."

Identifying Christ and his experience at his 1st Coming does not, in any way, remove the context for the "mourning of Israel" from the 2nd Coming, since that has yet to take place. And as I've already shown you, there are a number of prophecies that place Israel's full national repentance at the 2nd Coming of Christ, after having seem to have been abandoned for a long period of exile.

Sorry. I takes Jesus interpretation and application of this before your bias mistaken Premil one. You are fighting with Jesus here.
 
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