Another Premillennial absurdity

[rwb]

God says he does. And you can find that out also if you care.

Frankly, I'm sick of your games, and no longer choose to play! Only a fool would settle for a small part of the earth when the promise for every believer is they will receive the whole new earth!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, that is exactly what you imply!

You are reading something into my words that I didn't say. I didn't say that God would save every Jew. I didn't say that God would save every Israelite. John tells you that God will mark 144,000 Jews (Revelation 7) and protect them so that they survive the activities described in Revelation chapters 8 through 13. This number of Jews is not every Jew.

 

[rwb]

You are reading something into my words that I didn't say. I didn't say that God would save every Jew. I didn't say that God would save every Israelite. John tells you that God will mark 144,000 Jews (Revelation 7) and protect them so that they survive the activities described in Revelation chapters 8 through 13. This number of Jews is not every Jew.

They were sealed and ascended to heaven with Christ when He ascended there. How else could John see these 144,000 in heaven? How do you think these have the Father's name written in their foreheads?

Revelation 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The Holy Spirit was not universally sent until all the Old Covenant faithful saints were sealed through the Spirit of Christ, this is how His Father's name is written in their foreheads, and why John sees them again on mount Sion with Christ as the slain Lamb. The four angels of heaven hold back the FOUR (symbolizing universal) winds, symbolizing the Spirit as He came at Pentecost as a mighty rushing wind.

Acts 2:1-2 (KJV) And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Revelation 7:1-2 (KJV) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Revelation 7:4 (KJV) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

One hundred forty four thousand, symbolizing a remnant from the Old Covenant nation of Israel saved by grace through faith. Compared to the great innumerable multitude seen after the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit is sent unto the four corners of the earth, who will come out of great tribulation as the Gospel is sent unto the whole earth.

Revelation 7:9-10 (KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:14 (KJV) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Truth7t7]

Your doctrine of Zionism is an abomination unto God! A lie from the pit, come forth through the master deceiver, Satan!

You have the wrong guy pal, I oppose Zionism and all its teachings

I was giving an example of the poster in question, take a deep breath and exhale slowly

Jesus Is The Lord

Truth7t7, My Original Post #856

The poster will wiggle in as much Zionism as possible, then back peddlers the claims made

The poster is trying to soften the field for a ethnic people Jews, living in God's favor outside of New Testament teachings

Jews return to Israel and keep the old testament commandments in a rebuilt temple with animal sacrifice blessed by God, (That Would Be Chapter 2) in the posters Zionist claims

100% Deception: Dual Covenant Theology,Two Peoples Of God

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[rwb]

You have the wrong guy pal, I oppose Zionism and all its teachings

I was giving an example of the poster in question, take a deep breath and exhale slowly

Jesus Is The Lord

Good! I'm glad you straightened me out! My apologies, perhaps I failed to carefully read your reply.

 

[Truth7t7]

Good! I'm glad you straightened me out! My apologies, perhaps I failed to carefully read your reply.

The poster has revealed just a thumbnail sketch of what he/she believes and isn't able to get off the first paragraph of the Zionist book

The poster wouldn't dare explain their belief in a future Millennial Kingdom, and what they believe, it would scare you

Way Out In Left Field, Going, Going, "Gone"!

 

[CadyandZoe]

They were sealed and ascended to heaven with Christ when He ascended there. How else could John see these 144,000 in heaven? How do you think these have the Father's name written in their foreheads?

The vision takes place in heaven. The reality takes place on earth.

One hundred forty four thousand, symbolizing a remnant from the Old Covenant nation of Israel saved by grace through faith.

Here is how I see it.

Revelation 7
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

holding back the four winds of the earth
This symbolic language comes from the exile of the Jews in 70AD when the Jews were spread out "to the four winds of the earth." Zechariah 2:6. According to Mark 13:27, he will send his four angels to gather the Jews back to the land. Symbolically, then, holding back the four winds represents the end of the exile.

to harm the earth and the sea
A key aspect of the 144K is the fact that this particular subset of Jewish people are contemporary to the time when the four angels harm the earth and the sea. These Jewish people are living during the time when the Trumpets are blown.

 

[Truth7t7]

The vision takes place in heaven. The reality takes place on earth.

Here is how I see it.

Revelation 7
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

holding back the four winds of the earth
This symbolic language comes from the exile of the Jews in 70AD when the Jews were spread out "to the four winds of the earth." Zechariah 2:6. According to Mark 13:27, he will send his four angels to gather the Jews back to the land. Symbolically, then, holding back the four winds represents the end of the exile.

to harm the earth and the sea
A key aspect of the 144K is the fact that this particular subset of Jewish people are contemporary to the time when the four angels harm the earth and the sea. These Jewish people are living during the time when the Trumpets are blown.

Ok And?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ok And?

The prophecy of the 144K will be fulfilled in our future. They will live in the promised land. God will pour out his spirit on them. He will bless them materially and he will protect them from their enemies.

I am not a Zionist. A Zionist is a communist who advocated for the return of Jews to Palestine, by force of arms, intrigue, subversion, revolution, and treachery. Jesus warned his disciples about men who would take the kingdom by force.

Even so, these efforts will not stop God from his purpose to restore his holy name.

 

[Truth7t7]

The prophecy of the 144K will be fulfilled in our future. They will live in the promised land. God will pour out his spirit on them. He will bless them materially and he will protect them from their enemies.

I am not a Zionist. A Zionist is a communist who advocated for the return of Jews to Palestine, by force of arms, intrigue, subversion, revolution, and treachery. Jesus warned his disciples about men who would take the kingdom by force.

Even so, these efforts will not stop God from his purpose to restore his holy name.

The prophecy of the 144,000 will be fulfilled in the future at the time of tribulation, they will be saved by faith in Jesus Christ and will be "Sealed" by the Holy Spirit and "Added" to the Church on earth

The "Remnant" will dwell in the wilderness as seen below and they will be fed Manna from heaven as the world watches in astonishment and fear

Scripture teaches that the 144,000 the remnant church will be localized to Jerusalem, and ethnic to the location Israel, "the remnant of his heritage"

Below you see the future fulfilling of the gentiles and desolation in Jerusalem, armies from the worlds nations, from sea to sea

Below you see the Remnant being fed in the wilderness of Carmel, Bashan, Gilead, manna from heaven, as in the days of old in coming out of Egypt, the world watches in fear of the Lords power

All Believers Are Sealed By God The Holy Spirit, Including The 144,000

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Revelation 7:3-4KJV
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:10-18KJV
10 Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the Lord thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets.
11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

 

[Truth7t7]

I am not a Zionist. A Zionist is a communist who advocated for the return of Jews to Palestine, by force of arms, intrigue, subversion, revolution, and treachery. Jesus warned his disciples about men who would take the kingdom by force.

Even so, these efforts will not stop God from his purpose to restore his holy name.

Yes you do promote "Christian Zionism"

Wikipedia: Christian Zionism
Some Christian Zionists interpret the prophetic texts as describing inevitable future events, and these events primarily involve Israel (taken to mean the descendants of the Biblical patriarch Jacob) or Judah (taken to mean the remaining faithful adherents of Judaism). These prophecies are seen as requiring the presence of a Jewish state in the Holy Land, the central part of the lands promised to the Biblical patriarch Abraham in the Covenant of the pieces. This requirement is sometimes interpreted as being fulfilled by the contemporary state of Israel.

 

[Angel Faith]

You are reading something into my words that I didn't say. I didn't say that God would save every Jew. I didn't say that God would save every Israelite. John tells you that God will mark 144,000 Jews (Revelation 7) and protect them so that they survive the activities described in Revelation chapters 8 through 13. This number of Jews is not every Jew.

It would be 12 members of all 12 tribes. 12x12,000=144,000
Not many at all.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The prophecy of the 144,000 will be fulfilled in the future at the time of tribulation, they will be saved by faith in Jesus Christ and will be "Sealed" by the Holy Spirit and "Added" to the Church on earth

The "Remnant" will dwell in the wilderness as seen below and they will be fed Manna from heaven as the world watches in astonishment and fear

Scripture teaches that the 144,000 the remnant church will be localized to Jerusalem, and ethnic to the location Israel, "the remnant of his heritage"

Below you see the future fulfilling of the gentiles and desolation in Jerusalem, armies from the worlds nations, from sea to sea

Below you see the Remnant being fed in the wilderness of Carmel, Bashan, Gilead, manna from heaven, as in the days of old in coming out of Egypt, the world watches in fear of the Lords power

All Believers Are Sealed By God The Holy Spirit, Including The 144,000

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Revelation 7:3-4KJV
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:10-18KJV
10 Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the Lord thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets.
11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Nothing you said here contradicts anything that I actually said.
I said that the 144,000 will be saved in the future. We agree on that.
You say they will be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. I agree with that but I also know they will be saved by faith in God the Father.

Both the Greek word and the Hebrew word for "saved" have two major connotations: (1) saved from hell and damnation, and (2) delivered from enemies. Both will be true of the 144,000. First, God the Father will deliver them from their enemies and they will flee to the wilderness as you have said. But they will not know about Jesus Christ until he returns to earth. When Jesus returns to earth, he sets foot on Mt. Zion and the surviving Jews go out to meet him and then they will come to saving faith in Jesus Christ.

At that time, the remnant and the 144,000 will be the same group of people.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes you do promote "Christian Zionism"

Wikipedia: Christian Zionism
Some Christian Zionists interpret the prophetic texts as describing inevitable future events, and these events primarily involve Israel (taken to mean the descendants of the Biblical patriarch Jacob) or Judah (taken to mean the remaining faithful adherents of Judaism). These prophecies are seen as requiring the presence of a Jewish state in the Holy Land, the central part of the lands promised to the Biblical patriarch Abraham in the Covenant of the pieces. This requirement is sometimes interpreted as being fulfilled by the contemporary state of Israel.

You need to be accurate with your terminology. You accused me of being a "Zionist", which is actually a thing, not a "Christian Zionist", which is a term made up by Wikipedia as disinformation and propaganda. Beware of this kind of propaganda, which seeks to confuse people and keep them from the truth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It would be 12 members of all 12 tribes. 12x12,000=144,000
Not many at all.

Not many at all.
It's been like that since the days of Ezekiel, when God had Ezekiel shave off all of his hair. And Ezekiel was to divide his hair up into three parts. And each of the three parts represents three ways God's judgment was going to affect Jerusalem: one third will die in the city by fire, one third will die by the sword as they attempt to flee the city, and one third shall escape into the nations but God will send a sword after them. Ezekiel is to bind a small portion of his hair in the edges of his robe. And then Ezekiel will take some of that smaller portion and burn it in the fire. How many hairs are left?

 

[Truth7t7]

When Jesus returns to earth, he sets foot on Mt. Zion and the surviving Jews go out to meet him and then they will come to saving faith in Jesus Christ.

At that time, the remnant and the 144,000 will be the same group of people.

Zechariah 14 represents the day of the Lord and the (Eternal Kingdom) that takes place after

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment dissolving this earth by fire (The End) no mortal human body survives

The Lord's final judgement by fire, men are "Consumed" as they stand on their feet

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[Truth7t7]

When Jesus returns to earth, he sets foot on Mt. Zion and the surviving Jews go out to meet him and then they will come to saving faith in Jesus Christ.

At that time, the remnant and the 144,000 will be the same group of people.

Your claim above in bold red would be considered heretical by many, and I wouldn't disagree

"After Jesus Christ returns, Jews go and meet him and get saved"

Out in left field is a big understatement, your claims are so far away from scriptural truth, my words are silenced

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

Beware of this kind of propaganda, which seeks to confuse people and keep them from the truth.

It appears your looking into a mirror of truth

 

[rwb]

The vision takes place in heaven. The reality takes place on earth.

Here is how I see it.

Revelation 7
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

holding back the four winds of the earth
This symbolic language comes from the exile of the Jews in 70AD when the Jews were spread out "to the four winds of the earth." Zechariah 2:6. According to Mark 13:27, he will send his four angels to gather the Jews back to the land. Symbolically, then, holding back the four winds represents the end of the exile.

to harm the earth and the sea
A key aspect of the 144K is the fact that this particular subset of Jewish people are contemporary to the time when the four angels harm the earth and the sea. These Jewish people are living during the time when the Trumpets are blown.

I don't care how YOU see it! Where is the Scripture to prove what you allege?

Mark 13:26 (KJV) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 (KJV) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As we can see when the Lord returns after the seventh angel sounds the gathering of the elect if from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. That means ALL the elect both Jew and Gentile together. Again your Zionism is showing. Since when are the elect of Christ limited to Jewish people?

Paul writing to the Church of Colossae, which is both Gentile (Greek) and Jew calling them the elect of God. Will these elect Gentiles be left out of the gathering of the elect when Christ returns since you believe Christ gathers only Jewish people? What kind of nonsense you present in defense of Zionism.

Colossians 3:11-13 (KJV) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

 

[rwb]

The prophecy of the 144K will be fulfilled in our future. They will live in the promised land. God will pour out his spirit on them. He will bless them materially and he will protect them from their enemies.

I am not a Zionist. A Zionist is a communist who advocated for the return of Jews to Palestine, by force of arms, intrigue, subversion, revolution, and treachery. Jesus warned his disciples about men who would take the kingdom by force.

Even so, these efforts will not stop God from his purpose to restore his holy name.

Oh, boy! Now God needs time, apparently exactly one thousand years, to RESTORE His holy name???? What happened to VINDICATE His holy name? God doesn't need to restore or vindicate His holy name!